its in the results

[anerlich]

In one of the many HW8 posts that were deleted (there is a God, or at least a moderator doing his job) he asked Victor about the Thai clinch, in between the usual insults, threats by proxy and other assorted irrelevance.

The Thai clinch does NOT require you to lean forward. Only an ignorant or biased person who had never seen it could think so. You are controlling the guy’s head and jaw with your forearms, controlling the distance with your elbows. Not dissimilar to two fook saos. Your posture remains upright as normal. You are breaking and disrupting HIS structure, not yours, by bending and twisting his head on his neck, and moving him around using footwork, throwing knees and the odd elbow and punch as you go.

There is similar control in the Wc dummy, though it us usually employed as a single neck tie and wrist control. tHough there is nothing other than a lack of imagination to stop you using it as a double neck tie.

IMO there is little or nothing in effective use of the Thai head control that cannot be described or taught using WC terminology and principles. The same is true of many wrestling and groundwork techniques from other arts.

Opinions vary upon whether looking at everything through WC-coloured glasses (or blinkers in the case of some) all the time is the most effective way to understand or learn. And this will vary from individual to individual.

As much as some might wish, and/or have been incorrectly advised by those similarly misinformed, otherwise, many MA’s share a large common pool of principles. Some arts express certain aspects of them better than others in specific tachniques.

[HardWork8]

[QUOTE=Vankuen;874576]MMA is a buzz word,[/quote]
MMA is a a training approach that uses a mish mash of(hopefully relevant) martial arts to improve one’s personal fighting ability by training one in a variety of techniques, ranges,ETC.

@Vankuen

but it’s essence has been around for longer than wing chun.

The MMA’s essence varies depending on the arts that are mixed and its essence can also be described as a mish mash unless you MIX a few relatively simple/external MAs such as Kickboxing and Wrestling! In such a case you may create distinct “essence” within what you practice.

@Vankuen

It’s simply a matter of using what works best for the intended goal, regardless of semantic banter.

Well, I presume that is what all MA’s try to do but in their own ways and within their own concepts and principles.

@Vankuen

Just out of curiosity, what is the core essence of preying mantis and how do the techniques distinctly follow it? Because my experience with preying mantis showed a lot of techniques that I have seen in other styles as well, kung fu and non kung fu.

The name of the style might provide a hint. Or should I say or Wang Lang’s kung fu interpretation of the Praying Mantis with a Lohan Kung fu base. Of course the foot work is from the Monkey style. Other influences listed by Wong Kiew Kit, in his book,“The art of Shaolin Kung fu”, include Grasping techniques;Felling techniques and Wrestling!

I wonder how many Mantis teachers teach this style with all its aspects and how many of their students cross train(sometimes in the wrong manner) to fill in the gaps?

While we are on the subject of “essence” then it is worth mentioning that kung fu styles generally follow some set principles one of which is the importance of ROOTING! Without rooting your kung fu will have no essence, whatever the style. The same goes for those who ignore the internals even if they happen to be practicing a so called “external” style.

@Vankuen

Or perhaps these people see things in realistic ways unbound the constraints of traditionalism…

Then that is good for them. They can call what they do MMA or the ever in fashion Jeet Kune Do. They can even invent new names for what they do such as “American Kung Fu” or “Australian Kung fu” and even add sub headings such as “New and Improved”; “Better Than Before”;“Street Effective” and so on, but calling some mish mash Kung Fu is WRONG!

@Vankuen

perhaps these people actually engage in consistent combat and thus their perspectives have been forged from actually fighting?

So now you are implyig that the hundreds of kung fu masters who created and evolved these styles, sometimes during turbulent periods of Chinese history, did not engage in consistant combat and therefore are not as qualified as YOU, ANERLICH, ULTIMATE WING CHUN AND GRAND MASTER SAJURO_RONIN???

LOL!LOL!LOL!

@Vankuen

It’s all a matter of perspective HW8. Yours is no more correct than theirs.

I don’t know about you but when I see a fighter chain punch while hopping around like a boxer, then I don’t see Wing Chun nor any other style of Kung Fu. I see a MMA-ist!

@Vankuen

It won’t necessarily be the coined phrase of MMA either.

But it is!

@Vankuen

Again, that’s just a buzz word.

A “buzz word” that is based on a REAL AND VALID phenomenom. I have no problem with MMA as it works in its own right and has its merrit. My problem is with people who mish mash their martial arts and then call what they do kung fu, just because there a kung fu style somewhere within their mish mash!

@Vankuen

Someone could take Karate, Jujutsu, and Archery–would this be MMA?

Putting aside the weapons’ MA. Yes, karate and Jujutsu together are MMA, however, they are complimentary MMA.

Grappling techniques were also present in traditional karate styles and were “lost” in many(not all) schools.

The Wado ryu style is a relatively new style of Karate and has incorporated Japanese Jujutsu techniques within the principles of karate.

@Vankuen

But it would be Bushido.

Not if they are trained like in some Mc dojos nowadays…

@Vankuen

Cross trainers trypically do learn their arts separately, because they typically will seek out the best in each field of study. When you fight however, that’s where a person can no longer be partial to a particular art–because most arts are limited in scope and thus the fighter may need to tap into another skillset several times during a fight–sport or real life.

Kung fu fighters have been “tapping” into other kung fu skill sets for centuries.

@Vankuen

Overall, this seems to be the same ol debate I see. Again, it’s all a matter of perspective Hardwork. You have yours, other people have theirs.

That is fine and fair, but I did not invent my “perspective” as it is the traditional perspective. It is a school of thought.

@Vankuen

Again, yours is no more correct than anyone else’s on how people train and whether or not what they do is wing chun.

Well I know 3 traditional kung fu sifus personally, with whom I share the same perspective.

@Vankuen

I study wing chun, amonst a couple of other things nowadays. My wing chun is no less the wing chun it was years ago. But for various reasons, I enjoy practicing other arts. When I fight, whatever comes out comes out. That Doesn’t mean I’m no longer a wing chun guy, just means I’ve come with a larger skillset.

The ever present question would be wether you fight in a kung fu context or an MMA context? That is have you assimilated your other skills into your Wing Chun or have you kept them separate and “pick and choose” during the fight. If your case is the second then you are more of an MMA-ist than kung fu-ist. But then if it works for you in a fight then fair enough!

[HardWork8]

[QUOTE=anerlich;874721]In one of the many HW8 posts that were deleted (there is a God, or at least a moderator doing his job)[/quote]
If there was a god he would have made William Cheung very choosey about who he appoints as instructor.

@anerlich

he asked Victor about the Thai clinch,

I did ask Victor about the Thai clinch because unlike most of you guys(and your grand mothers) I don’t practice Thai Boxing. In some matches that I have seen the clinch results in the clincher bending forward slightly or maybe these exponents were not as good in kickboxing as you guys?

@anerlich

in between the usual insults,

Your so called insults travelled in both directions. It is amazing how you guys only see the “sins” of those who oppose you and not those of posters who are on your side of the fence.

@anerlich

threats by proxy and other assorted irrelevance.

I don’t recall threatening Victor or anyone else here for that matter. If Victor thinks that I have threatened him please tell me how.

You should stop making untruthful statements about me. You are beginning to sound like Sanjuro.

As far as the “irrelevant banter” goes then the fault is yours not mine. If you were more educated in the subject matter then what I said would not sound so “irrelevant” to you.

@anerlich

The Thai clinch does NOT require you to lean forward. Only an ignorant or biased person who had never seen it could think so.

I was asking Victor a question based on some matches that I had seen. And wash your mouth.

@anerlich

You are controlling the guy’s head and jaw with your forearms, controlling the distance with your elbows. Not dissimilar to two fook saos. Your posture remains upright as normal. You are breaking and disrupting HIS structure, not yours, by bending and twisting his head on his neck, and moving him around using footwork, throwing knees and the odd elbow and punch as you go.

Well thank you for your explanation. I will know where to come if I have more kickboxing questions. The problem is where do I go for my kung fu questions?

@anerlich

There is similar control in the Wc dummy, though it us usually employed as a single neck tie and wrist control. tHough there is nothing other than a lack of imagination to stop you using it as a double neck tie.

IMO there is little or nothing in effective use of the Thai head control that cannot be described or taught using WC terminology and principles. The same is true of many wrestling and groundwork techniques from other arts.

Then why cross train? Use your “imagination” within the context of Wing Chun.

@anerlich

Opinions vary upon whether looking at everything through WC-coloured glasses (or blinkers in the case of some) all the time is the most effective way to understand or learn.

Opinions vary upon wether looking at everything through MMA/Cross training tinted glasses(or blinkers in the case of some)

@anerlich

And this will vary from individual to individual.

Thank god for that!

@anerlich

As much as some might wish, and/or have been incorrectly advised by those similarly misinformed, otherwise, many MA’s share a large common pool of principles. Some arts express certain aspects of them better than others in specific tachniques.

It is the mixture of the “uncommon” and contradicting principles that you should worry about if insist on calling what you do Wing Chun!

[anerlich]

Quote:
Originally Posted by anerlich
threats by proxy and other assorted irrelevance.

I don’t recall threatening Victor or anyone else here for that matter. If Victor thinks that I have threatened him please tell me how.

To clarify, HW8 suggested in one of the deleted posts that there were a couple of “masters” in London that could send Victor to the nearest hospital.

I guess saying some unnamed person he claims to know could beat Victor up in a challenge match that neither would be remotely interested in wasn’t really a threat. Just a really stupid thing to say. I retract the statement and apologise unreservedly

I imagine such an encounter would go something like ths:

Victor is visiting London. He enters a kung fu school not far from Picadilly Circus. The master comes over.

Victor: Hi. Can you direct me to the nearest hospital?

Master: Yes. Is something wrong?

Victor: Yeah, this funny-looking, goofy kid kept getting in my face while I was on my way here. Kept walking backwards in front of me, yelling in my face about how crosstraining is evil, only his master knows the pure Kung Fu, really blathering on, frothing at the mouth almost. I wasn’t really listening and trying to ignore him, but I turned to climb the stairs up here. He wasn’t watching where he was going, walking backwards and all, and he tripped and split his head open. ‘Hardwork, or Headd0rk … something’, He called himself. I’gave him a towel I had with me, but I think he needs stitches.

The master’s shoulders slump. He shakes his head and looks at the floor.

Master: [Sighs] I know him. He needs a lot more than stitches. It’s about the third time this month. The hospital’s up the street and around the corner. I’ll take you … [sighs again] .. and the kid.

Victor: Great. I’m Victor, from New York.

Master: [Looks happy now] Not the Wing Chun / Catch Wrestling guy? Hey, maybe you can show me some of your stuff, after we get the kid patched up and call his case worker. I’m always interested in a different approach to martial arts.

Victor: Fantastic. What are you going to do about the kid?

Master: [Suddenly depressed again] I wish I knew.

[anerlich]

YOU, ANERLICH, ULTIMATE WING CHUN AND GRAND MASTER SAJURO_RONIN???

Welcome to the Glorified Kickboxer and MMA Mishmashers’ club. Mr Punch and a few other guys are here as well. Sihing73 only cross trains with Pekiti Tirsia so he cannot be regarded as a pure mishmasher as yet, and remains but a probationary member.

Remember, DON’T CALL IT WING CHUN!!!

[SAAMAG]

[QUOTE=HardWork8;874742]MMA is a a training approach that uses a mish mash of(hopefully relevant) martial arts to improve one’s personal fighting ability by training one in a variety of techniques, ranges,ETC.

The MMA’s essence varies depending on the arts that are mixed and its essence can also be described as a mish mash unless you MIX a few relatively simple/external MAs such as Kickboxing and Wrestling! In such a case you may create distinct “essence” within what you practice.

Well, I presume that is what all MA’s try to do but in their own ways and within their own concepts and principles.

The name of the style might provide a hint. Or should I say or Wang Lang’s kung fu interpretation of the Praying Mantis with a Lohan Kung fu base. Of course the foot work is from the Monkey style. Other influences listed by Wong Kiew Kit, in his book,“The art of Shaolin Kung fu”, include Grasping techniques;Felling techniques and Wrestling!

I wonder how many Mantis teachers teach this style with all its aspects and how many of their students cross train(sometimes in the wrong manner) to fill in the gaps?

While we are on the subject of “essence” then it is worth mentioning that kung fu styles generally follow some set principles one of which is the importance of ROOTING! Without rooting your kung fu will have no essence, whatever the style. The same goes for those who ignore the internals even if they happen to be practicing a so called “external” style.

Then that is good for them. They can call what they do MMA or the ever in fashion Jeet Kune Do. They can even invent new names for what they do such as “American Kung Fu” or “Australian Kung fu” and even add sub headings such as “New and Improved”; “Better Than Before”;“Street Effective” and so on, but calling some mish mash Kung Fu is WRONG!

So now you are implyig that the hundreds of kung fu masters who created and evolved these styles, sometimes during turbulent periods of Chinese history, did not engage in consistant combat and therefore are not as qualified as YOU, ANERLICH, ULTIMATE WING CHUN AND GRAND MASTER SAJURO_RONIN???

LOL!LOL!LOL!

I don’t know about you but when I see a fighter chain punch while hopping around like a boxer, then I don’t see Wing Chun nor any other style of Kung Fu. I see a MMA-ist!

But it is!

A “buzz word” that is based on a REAL AND VALID phenomenom. I have no problem with MMA as it works in its own right and has its merrit. My problem is with people who mish mash their martial arts and then call what they do kung fu, just because there a kung fu style somewhere within their mish mash!

Putting aside the weapons’ MA. Yes, karate and Jujutsu together are MMA, however, they are complimentary MMA.

Grappling techniques were also present in traditional karate styles and were “lost” in many(not all) schools.

The Wado ryu style is a relatively new style of Karate and has incorporated Japanese Jujutsu techniques within the principles of karate.

Not if they are trained like in some Mc dojos nowadays…

Kung fu fighters have been “tapping” into other kung fu skill sets for centuries.

That is fine and fair, but I did not invent my “perspective” as it is the traditional perspective. It is a school of thought.

Well I know 3 traditional kung fu sifus personally, with whom I share the same perspective.

The ever present question would be wether you fight in a kung fu context or an MMA context? That is have you assimilated your other skills into your Wing Chun or have you kept them separate and “pick and choose” during the fight. If your case is the second then you are more of an MMA-ist than kung fu-ist. But then if it works for you in a fight then fair enough![/QUOTE]

I appreciate the lack of nonsense this time around in your response! Fair enough viewpoint as well. Take care.

[HardWork8]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;874588]That is how it has always been.[/quote]
Not exactly, as far as kung fu is concerned. The various different aspects were always assimilated within the context of an individual style.

Kung fu exponents however did use techiques from other kung fu styles as generally they share similar principles and concepts as far as the fundementals are concerned.

@sanjuro_ronin

He doesn’t get that, he never will.

You are the one who doesn’t get it and never will unless you find a real kung fu school and train with dedication (that is if they accept you, because the real kung fu schools are very choosey when it comes to the morality of their students).

@sanjuro_ronin

And if he ACTUALLY trained in the style he says he does, he would know that too.

That is a new one. Now you are implying that I don’t train in Wing Chun. Fortunately, this coming from a person who is nothing more than a glorified kickboxer is not a big insult.

Sanjuro, you have lied about me in this forum before and your statements were proved wrong by whoevere that bothered to check them out.

You haven’t given up yet I see. Tell a lie and keep repeating it and add other lies to it. You might have even pulled it off if only you were more intelligent!

@Sanuro_ronin

Waste of time bro, waste of time.

Exactly my sentiments!

[Toby]

[QUOTE=anerlich;874721]There is similar control in the Wc dummy, though it us usually employed as a single neck tie and wrist control. tHough there is nothing other than a lack of imagination to stop you using it as a double neck tie.[/QUOTE]Good point. We combine that move with a knee when training the dummy form in the air. And I’ve trained applications with single and double neck ties with knees straight from that dummy move too.

[HardWork8]

[QUOTE=anerlich;874750]To clarify, HW8 suggested in one of the deleted posts that there were a couple of “masters” in London that could send Victor to the nearest hospital.[/quote]
Well they would! However, they are nice guys so they wouldn’t hurt him too badly, bad karma and all that.

@anerlich

I guess saying some unnamed person he claims to know could beat Victor up in a challenge match that neither would be remotely interested in wasn’t really a threat.

It took you long enough to find out that your statement was FALSE and thank you for taking the time to clarify it!

I wish Sanjuro had your sense of morality regarding his lies, but then it is too much to ask I suppose.

@anerlich

Just a really stupid thing to say.

Not really. They are the real deal. Maybe your kung fu fraternity are one dimensional and can’t fight “outside” Wing Chun". Maybe they need to train in a dozen MAs, just in case they have to fight a Thai boxer or a wrestler one day. These guys don’t have to. They have dedicated their lifes to kung fu and in an holistic way at that - no one dimensional stuff.

I also know that between them they have had many many real fights, real ones and NOT sports contests.

@anerlich

I retract the statement and apologise unreservedly

And so you should. Now be a good boy and run along and tell your kickboxer friends Ikfmdc, Sanjuro_ronin,cjurakpt and SoCoKungfu to the same for lies, untruthful statements and that stupid prank that fell around their ears.

@anerlich

I imagine such an encounter would go something like ths:

Victor is visiting London. He enters a kung fu school not far from Picadilly Circus. The master comes over.

Victor: Hi. Can you direct me to the nearest hospital?

Master: Yes. Is something wrong?

Victor: Yeah, this funny-looking, goofy kid kept getting in my face while I was on my way here. Kept walking backwards in front of me, yelling in my face about how crosstraining is evil, only his master knows the pure Kung Fu, really blathering on, frothing at the mouth almost. I wasn’t really listening and trying to ignore him, but I turned to climb the stairs up here. He wasn’t watching where he was going, walking backwards and all, and he tripped and split his head open. ‘Hardwork, or Headd0rk … something’, He called himself. I’gave him a towel I had with me, but I think he needs stitches.

The master’s shoulders slump. He shakes his head and looks at the floor.

Master: [Sighs] I know him. He needs a lot more than stitches. It’s about the third time this month. The hospital’s up the street and around the corner. I’ll take you … [sighs again] .. and the kid.

Victor: Great. I’m Victor, from New York.

Master: [Looks happy now] Not the Wing Chun / Catch Wrestling guy? Hey, maybe you can show me some of your stuff, after we get the kid patched up and call his case worker. I’m always interested in a different approach to martial arts.

Victor: Fantastic. What are you going to do about the kid?

Master: [Suddenly depressed again] I wish I knew.

If you had used your “imagination” for your kung fu training(and I mean actual training and not your “kung fu” resume), then your Wing Chun would have been a lot better off than it is now.

[HardWork8]

[QUOTE=anerlich;874752]Welcome to the Glorified Kickboxer and MMA Mishmashers’ club. Mr Punch and a few other guys are here as well. Sihing73 only cross trains with Pekiti Tirsia so he cannot be regarded as a pure mishmasher as yet, and remains but a probationary member.

Remember, DON’T CALL IT WING CHUN!!![/QUOTE]
Sihing has not mish mashed his Wing Chun essence. You guys have and it comes out in most of your posts, but hey if it works for you then fine, but DON’T CALL IT WING CHUN, call it MMA. Victor has been honest enough to do it, why can’t you?

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=anerlich;874752]Welcome to the Glorified Kickboxer and MMA Mishmashers’ club. Mr Punch and a few other guys are here as well. Sihing73 only cross trains with Pekiti Tirsia so he cannot be regarded as a pure mishmasher as yet, and remains but a probationary member.

Remember, DON’T CALL IT WING CHUN!!![/QUOTE]

The list is long and distinguished, like my Johnson.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=punchdrunk;874700]Lee Chiang Po, i agree with Couch’s response. Different parts of bui gee break the center line principle, the straight line principle, the simultaneous defend and attack principle etc. etc. an easy example would be the two handed grab followed by a ginger fist in some peoples form ( i know this one changes in differing lineages.) that doesn’t really utilise the center line, thus breaking a principle. I know the form is used for emergency techiques but i also think its meant to broaden our horizon as well.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think it violates or breaks the principles, it kind of puts a 'twist" on them, more along the lines of teaching that the centerline can be his, our or both, know what I mean?

[HardWork8]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;874774]The list is long and distinguished, like my Johnson.[/QUOTE]
The list of Glorified kickboxers is much bigger than you imagine. The world is full of them.:rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

HILARIOUS…and so likely to occur if indeed I ever visit London. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=anerlich;874750]To clarify, HW8 suggested in one of the deleted posts that there were a couple of “masters” in London that could send Victor to the nearest hospital.

I guess saying some unnamed person he claims to know could beat Victor up in a challenge match that neither would be remotely interested in wasn’t really a threat. Just a really stupid thing to say. I retract the statement and apologise unreservedly

I imagine such an encounter would go something like ths:

Victor is visiting London. He enters a kung fu school not far from Picadilly Circus. The master comes over.

Victor: Hi. Can you direct me to the nearest hospital?

Master: Yes. Is something wrong?

Victor: Yeah, this funny-looking, goofy kid kept getting in my face while I was on my way here. Kept walking backwards in front of me, yelling in my face about how crosstraining is evil, only his master knows the pure Kung Fu, really blathering on, frothing at the mouth almost. I wasn’t really listening and trying to ignore him, but I turned to climb the stairs up here. He wasn’t watching where he was going, walking backwards and all, and he tripped and split his head open. ‘Hardwork, or Headd0rk … something’, He called himself. I’gave him a towel I had with me, but I think he needs stitches.

The master’s shoulders slump. He shakes his head and looks at the floor.

Master: [Sighs] I know him. He needs a lot more than stitches. It’s about the third time this month. The hospital’s up the street and around the corner. I’ll take you … [sighs again] .. and the kid.

Victor: Great. I’m Victor, from New York.

Master: [Looks happy now] Not the Wing Chun / Catch Wrestling guy? Hey, maybe you can show me some of your stuff, after we get the kid patched up and call his case worker. I’m always interested in a different approach to martial arts.

Victor: Fantastic. What are you going to do about the kid?

Master: [Suddenly depressed again] I wish I knew.[/QUOTE]

[Ultimatewingchun]

You know, I just thought of something, anerlich, sanjuro, Van, Lee, Toby…

Why don’t we just hijack the thread?!

And talk about some real crosstraining, grappling, mma, chi-na, wooden dummy and other things that may play a role in bringing wing chun into the 21 century!

For example, Van wrote this:

“The most successful MMA guys (and there are exceptions to be sure) are the ones that have trained a core art, and then took that same mindset to another art, etc. It’s like high school…you learn math, english, music, geography…etc. Each piece is learnt separately, you do the best you can in each subject, and it all becomes part of a whole.”

***VERY IMPRESSED with guys like Antonio Nogueria (Minotauro), Randy Couture, Chuck Liddell, Sak, BJ Penn, St. Pierre, and a whole bunch of others for doing this very thing.

They all started with a “core” art - and then learned another art(s) and made the total package fit together - even though their “strength” stll remained their core art, ie.- Nog/BJJ…Couture/Greco…Sak/catch…

until finally - they became so good in their “second” art that you pretty much couldn’t even say anymore that they were a particular type of fighter or not (ie.- primarily a striker, or primarily a grappler).

The most blatant example is, imo, Fedor, whose “first/primary” art, sambo, combines real boxing/kickboxing skills with judo and wrestling right from the get-go.

How do you see wing chun being able to make such a (hopefully) seamless mma marriage as time goes on?

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;874929]You know, I just thought of something, anerlich, sanjuro, Van,

Why don’t we just hijack the thread?!

And talk about some real crosstraining, grappling, mma, chi-na, wooden dummy and other things that may play a role in bringing wing chun into the 21 century!

For example, Van wrote this:

"The most successful MMA guys (and there are exceptions to be sure) are the ones that have trained a core art, and then took that same mindset to another art, etc. It’s like high school…you learn math, english, music, geography…etc. Each piece is learnt[/QUOTE]

Actually, I have always preached that:
One core specific art (choose your poison)
And “round it off/finish it” with what you need, INCLUDING WEAPONS.
WC is no different, it is not a complete system, it6 is a specialized form of H2H and the one that used it best, like Alan’s guys since he was mentioned earlier, are those the use its strengths and make up for its weaknesses.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good point. I’ve grown to like what Alan and his guys are doing.

Btw, Sanjuro…you may have responded before I added a whole paragraph-or-two…to my last post.

Read it again, perhaps there’s more you’d like to add or contrast to the points made.

[sihing]

The problem with Victor’s propotition is that all those guys he mentioned are Professional athlete’s, with natural gifts. What that means is that these guys are made to be doing what they are doing, mentally, emotionally, physically, and are supported by a bunch of trainers and specialist to bring forth the optimum results in their training. Also is the fact that these guys spend all day training, researching, communing with the best of the best without the stress of a job, something that is impossible for the everyday person to do for the most part, with job, family as well as other personal obligations.

I whole heartedly agree that to be the best fighter you can be you need to cross train in other arts to be the most effective fighter. If your a stand up fighter, you will need to train in wrestling and ground fighting arts to strengthen your weakness, visa versa is your specializiation is in ground fighting. The thing is not all of us want to be fighters, nor do we have a choice (I for one don’t, I am not a fighter, I don’t have the mentality nor intention/killer instinct to fight on a regular basis, IMO there are much better ways to spend one’s time). For me WC serves my needs self defence wise. I am not stupid enough think that I am a complete fighter because I have training in WC, that is not my purpose in training it. I train in it mostly because I enjoy the process, plus it gives me the ability to defend myself and others when need be.

I think it’s hippocritcal to think that someone of average ability and time commitment should follow the MMA route, there is too much going on, too much to be learned, with not enough time to learn it all correctly. I have a student who trained in a MMA school here, he found the training was very hard with injuries arising on a steady basis. He stopped training there for that fact, as it wasn’t what he needed nor was he looking for that type of training. If you are, fine, but not everyone is, that why it is good that there are a variety of arts out there, as one of them will surely fulfil someone’s needs and wants.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;874936]Good point. I’ve grown to like what Alan and his guys are doing.

Btw, Sanjuro…you may have responded before I added a whole paragraph-or-two…to my last post.

Read it again, perhaps there’s more you’d like to add or contrast to the points made.[/QUOTE]

I agree with what you added, though you can always see a fighters core, no matter what he adds.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem with Victor’s propotition is that all those guys he mentioned are Professional athlete’s, with natural gifts. What that means is that these guys are made to be doing what they are doing, mentally, emotionally, physically, and are supported by a bunch of trainers and specialist to bring forth the optimum results in their training. Also is the fact that these guys spend all day training, researching, communing with the best of the best without the stress of a job, something that is impossible for the everyday person to do for the most part, with job, family as well as other personal obligations.

Quite, that is why one must do what we can WHEN we can do it.

I whole heartedly agree that to be the best fighter you can be you need to cross train in other arts to be the most effective fighter. If your a stand up fighter, you will need to train in wrestling and ground fighting arts to strengthen your weakness, visa versa is your specializiation is in ground fighting.

I don;t think anyone disagrees anymore, not anyone sane anyways.

The thing is not all of us want to be fighters, nor do we have a choice (I for one don’t, I am not a fighter, I don’t have the mentality nor intention/killer instinct to fight on a regular basis, IMO there are much better ways to spend one’s time). For me WC serves my needs self defence wise. I am not stupid enough think that I am a complete fighter because I have training in WC, that is not my purpose in training it. I train in it mostly because I enjoy the process, plus it gives me the ability to defend myself and others when need be.

I think that IF you take up a MA, you MUST have a fighter’s mentality even if you are no longer a fighter or even never want to be.

I think it’s hippocritcal to think that someone of average ability and time commitment should follow the MMA route, there is too much going on, too much to be learned, with not enough time to learn it all correctly. I have a student who trained in a MMA school here, he found the training was very hard with injuries arising on a steady basis. He stopped training there for that fact, as it wasn’t what he needed nor was he looking for that type of training. If you are, fine, but not everyone is, that why it is good that there are a variety of arts out there, as one of them will surely fulfil someone’s needs and wants.

Following the MMA route is not somethign advice anyone to do, following a cross training route, yes.
There is a difference.
If you get nothing else out of it, which I doubt, you at least get to “know your enemy”.