More on different TCMA power generation testing
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1098335]1, The topic is biomechanics and showing different TCMA power generation methods.
[/quote]
You put up the clip, so expect commentary. Especially if showing the TCMA power generation methods is doing so in a flawed test environment. That shows nothing.
2, for side or off topic, on your comment: Try Sun Lu-Dang and Wang Xiang-Zai’s record vesus non Chinese fighters.
OK I will look up Sun Lu-Dang and Wang Xiang-Zai’s records against people of the caliber of top Russian wrestlers.
For me,
the following is 85% RAW power, the stronger body win. Not something for everyone to participate in but a selective few’s who was born with strong physical body exclusive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViniaW5YEX8
Nothing good or bad , right or wrong, it is just a part of reality. To think practicing it will get EVERY ONE into that great shape without taking consideration of the body is not realistic.
It is more a competition sport
rather a martial art.
because there is not much art but technics execute based heavily on physical strength.
and the one who is born stronger usually has a better biomechenics handling then those who is wearker.
and,
Power is power get it from Raw or get it from Chen Reel silk, it doesnt matter. the heavy one win.
also, Power doesnt come with a fix shape. it doesnt matter who the shape looks RAW or Reel silk.
Training in Chen Reel silk thinking will defeat all power is non realistic. Traning in MMA thinking one will look like those mmA stars and that is the only way is also non realisitc.
The worse is to know not the technology of the Reel silk but thinking one could fajin. similarly, thinking one is as powerfull as those MMA stars because one is joining MMA training but knowing not one’s body condition.
Every coin has two faces and one needs to know what kind of coin is it.
I defend nothing but trying to describe different things.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1098345]For me,
the following is 85% RAW power, the stronger body win. Not something for everyone to participate in but a selective few’s who was born with strong physical body exclusive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViniaW5YEX8
[/QUOTE]
Actually those guys are strong, but it’s their technique and timing to note in that video above. Look at the precision of the striking, and the angle and landing point of each attack. That’s a more valuable lesson.
Nothing good or bad , right or wrong, it is just a part of reality. To think practicing it will get EVERY ONE into that great shape without taking consideration of the body is not realistic.
I disagree. The training and conditioning methods the above employ will get EVERY ONE who trains that way into great shape. Yes there are extreme examples of people who’s doctor won’t recommend physical exercise that are the exception.
It is more a competition sport
rather a martial art.
because there is not much art but technics execute based heavily on physical strength.
Actually, strength, conditioning AND technique are necessary. Strength itself has little to do with knocking someone out. Watch MMA videos of Marius Pudjianowski the world’s strongest man to see this. His last opponent basically let him hit him at will for over a minute with little damage resulting.
and the one who is born stronger usually has a better biomechenics handling then those who is wearker.
Those that train to become stronger usually do. Those that don’t train to become stronger usually don’t.
Power is power get it from Raw or get it from Chen Reel silk, it doesnt matter. the heavy one win.
also, Power doesnt come with a fix shape. it doesnt matter who the shape looks RAW or Reel silk.
Chen Reel silk training has benefits, but cardio and physical strength aren’t among the top benefits.
Training in Chen Reel silk thinking will defeat all power is non realistic. Traning in MMA thinking one will look like those mmA stars and that is the only way is also non realisitc.
Actually, training like the MMA stars do is great for all walks of life. It is very realistic. Anyone can do CrossFit workouts or Kettle Bells. They can do many of the taxing Strength and Conditioning workouts the athletes do, and it makes them stronger, faster, and healthier. Lower body fat, lower blood pressure, stronger heart, stronger oxygen pathway delivery, higher testosterone.
The worse is to know not the technology of the Reel silk but thinking one could fajin. similarly, thinking one is as powerfull as those MMA stars because one is joining MMA training but knowing not one’s body condition.
Every coin has two faces and one needs to know what kind of coin is it.
I defend nothing but trying to describe different things.
Reel silk training has its place and benefit. So does strength and conditioning as MMA people train. The sculpting of the human body and health is the common face of the coins here.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1098347] The sculpting of the human body and health is the common face of the coins here.[/QUOTE]
Due to we all dont born equal and having the same age it is a difficult subject.
Since it is WCK forum here, a question needs to be asked then, is, how close or distance the sculpting of human body WCK’s training provide compare with the other arts.
One needs to know oneself and what one is against.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1098330]“If Huang is a ‘world class’ Tai Chi guy, then he should consider going against another ‘world class’ wrestler of the time, say like: Dan Gable?”[/QUOTE]
There is no need for that, he can just go to a local Judo or golden glove boxing tournament and see if he can take the 1st place there. That should be a very simple test.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1098347]Strength itself has little to do with knocking someone out.[/QUOTE]
Agree 100% there. To be able to recognize “opportunity” and can take advantage on it with good “timing” will be as important as the “power” itself. unfortunity both “opportunity” and “timing” cannot be trained “solo”.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1098335] showing different TCMA power generation methods.[/QUOTE]
The TCMA power generation methods are much more that just striking. If Chen Man-Ching can lift his 230 lb opponent up and over his head then I’ll be convinced that his power generation method is better than “RAW” power.
The following clip also show a TCMA power generation method. I believe even our MMA friends on this forum won’t say this kind of training is useless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUzE5MQhdcc
I’m using the following picture to prove that this training method is not just a fantasy created for CMA movie only.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3310/gond.jpg
It’s so funny that on one side I try to point out the TCMA fantasy. On the other side, I try to protect the honor of the TCMA as much as I can.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1098367]The TCMA power generation methods are much more that just striking. If Chen Man-Ching can lift his 230 lb opponent up and over his head then I’ll be convinced that his power generation method is better than “RAW” power.
The following clip also show a TCMA power generation method. I believe even our MMA friends on this forum won’t say this kind of training is useless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUzE5MQhdcc
I’m using the following picture to prove that this training method is not just a fantasy created for CMA movie only.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3310/gond.jpg
It’s so funny that on one side I try to point out the TCMA fantasy. On the other side, I try to protect the honor of the TCMA as much as I can.[/QUOTE]
1, For those who has weakness in their internal organs or other health issues ( lung problem, heart problem, kidney problem, liver problem, and or more then the age of 60 ) they can do it in Chen Man Ching or other same class of TCMA ways. They can defend themselve training that way not to mention the possible of heal or totally cure their sickness as Chen Man-Ching heal his TB totally.
the name list of those who uses these type of art to heal their body sickness and attain martial art skill in the same time, continuous on since hundreds of years ago up to today.
http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/ma.html
http://www.chentaichi.org/news/113-a-biography-of-master-t-t-liang.html
They cant lift 230lb but they can send a surge of spike force enough to penetrate a 230lb human body.
2, For those who is born strong and heathy could do the RAW Chinese Wrestling physical training, but that is not every one, specially not for the type human with weaker or less well body.
Also, That might (might because it is depending on the person physical) lift 230lb but it might not be able to sent a surge spike at contact to penetrate a 230lb human body.
One is lucky if one has a healthy body, but how about those who has blood pressure, blood sugar…etc issue? This type of training does not suit them.
There is no contradiction.
There are many ways and alternative in the world. and Martial art for self defence skill is not neccesary a competition sport.
Another key on the TCMA biomechanics for those who is interested in :
The type 1 of training is called the accumulative Qi type which is recycle the Qi and storing.
The type 2 of training is called the dissipative Qi type which will consume lots of energy.
Both have their place in human, however, for any imbalance or weaker body, accumulative type is the way to go for safe training.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1098367]If Chen Man-Ching can lift his 230 lb opponent up and over his head then I’ll be convinced that his power generation method is better than “RAW” power.[/quote]
No kidding… especially since Chen Man-Ching is dead.
Resurrection-Fu for the win?
[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;1098375]No kidding… especially since Chen Man-Ching is dead.
Resurrection-Fu for the win?[/QUOTE]
Same logic can also be applied to “There is no way to prove that his power generation method is superior than others”.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1098374]… totally cure their sickness as Chen Man-Ching heal his TB totally. [/QUOTE]
(Cheng Man-ch’ing), an IMA guy (July 29, 1902 - March 26, 1975) - lived for 73 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE-ujdPpPQ8
(Shi Jian), an EMA guy (January 1, 1913-June 3, 2009) - lived for 96 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7EymIclBpk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-_75ce54A
Which TCMA style is better for health? I just don’t believe to move “slow” all your life is good for health.
- Running is better than walking.
- Walking is better than standing.
- Standing is better than sittiing.
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is better than to be dead.
The harder that you move your body, the longer that you will live.
the name list of those who uses these type of art to heal their body sickness and attain martial art skill in the same time
That list is pretty short.
My father-in-law had TB in his youth, drank and smoked, did as little exercise as possible - one of his mottoes was “never stand when you can sit and never sit when you can lie down” - and died last year at 91.
Helio Gracie lived to 95.
I could list a number of famous WC practitioners who died earlier than average.
A poster claiming knowledge of “technology” and a one-sided desire to impart it should know that anecdotal evidence does not constitute scientific proof.
It’s great if they could “heal themselves”, though it should be remembered that spontaneous or unexplained remissions occur regularly enough to be used as “proof” of all sorts of addle-headed claims of alleged curatives.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1098237]So, Some asked me with PM what is the different between Taichi reel silk, Emei Snake, Shao Lin yi jing jing.
A clip is better then a millions words
take a look and you shall see what is the different, also notice how the loose and silence door are in common in all of them.
reel silk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeqAMDO0a4M&feature=related
emei snake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HFXIPyKrqs
Shao lin Yi jing jing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNtOtJLspTU&feature=related
Human body is human body , joints are joints. just different ways/approach to handle the biomechanics and developing/transform the body for different uses.
The above are the Three core “DNA” of TCMA which develop different type of “Engine”.
now,
look at WCK and see for yourself which “DNA” it likely evolve from?
start at 1.12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E&feature=related
start at 3.23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q
Due to the different of the “engine”, the 3 major system of China — Wu Dang, Shao Lin, Emei take different approach of doing things. and thus, their application technics and straregy are different. For example, different type of car will result in different type of handling.
So, if one use and application with a wrong type of engine. that is not effective and efficient or natural fit. one has to use the engine as what it is for and what it can do.[/QUOTE]
I was chatting with Navin on the snake engine…etc that give me an insparation on how to present these stuffs to night, so here I share with you all. Thanks to Navin.
1, Look at the person who train in the above three major mother style as
a, an expert who is training and mastering weight lifting = Shao Lin
b, an expert who is training and mastering swinging a big hammer = Tai Ji/ reel silk
c, an expert who is training and mastering firing Whip (IE: cowbow whip) = Emei/ snake engine
These people are all using their body and joints since they are human, but due to adaptive to their mastering; their body evolve into different type of bodies — structure and power generation.
Now, look at
the Chen taji clip above the Reel Silk training is actually similar to the person who swing a big hammer with motion always initiate from the Dan Dien, the center. That develop that type of body structure, and power generation.
The Emei clip above the emei snake engine is actually similar to the person who train in whipping. The body is then is similar to the break dancing dancer type of body. Again, that type of body structure and power generation is a different type compare with the other two.
The different type of the body structure and power generation is what I refer to as “engine”.
and different type of “engine” supporting different type of application move.
IE: a whipping doesnt support well by a Hammer swing body structure and power generation.
Now, take a look at those WCK clips above. Pay particular attention in that WCK BJ above. Isnt it that is a “smooth break dancing” type of move? same with the Emei?
“smooth break dancing” is exactly refer to as “snake slide worm move” in the ancient chinese term ; where snake refer to the movement of linking of the big joints of the body , and the Worm refer to the movement of linking of the small joints of the fingers.
For me, that BJ moves as present by Sergio above on how it is perform or practice in China has already justify the engine type needs to power those type of action. the engine has to be the smooth break dance type.
So, WCK could be seen as having a “Smooth break dancing” type of engine. Can one test and verify this? sure, practice the SLT/SNT, CK, BJ set with "Smooth break dancing " style see for yourself how is the handling of the technics in the set. and how that direction make the sets alive instantanously.
Also, test the sets with the swinging Hammer, and weight lifting way and see what is the out come.
Thus, there is no mystery, it is just different type of biomechanics develop different type of power generation and structure base on different needs and different way of applications.
A break dancer has to have a break dancing engine or else it will not do the job. That is what I refer to turn on the SLT with proper engine.
Also
One can take a look at the Hung gar Iron wire set. see for yourself, is that set power by Brake dancing like engine or Weight lifting engine or Swinging Hammer engine.
also
The following in the Cho family evolution might give you some ideas of how different engine will yield different result both in structure and technics
using Hung gar Engine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26CFsSIIvok
using white crane and emei snake engine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig
Finally, as for real life fighting, as we know no one could have a perfect shape like what one practice in the form or set, what I am looking for is does one’s power generation type fit the art one train in. IE: Hammer swinging for Chen Taiji, Break dance for WCK. if at the real figthing the Taiji and WCner both are default to weight lifter power type then we know the art is not applied in that fight and the technics is not effective.
That is because the power and structure one suppose to develop is not used or cannot be used in real life.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1098374]1, For those who has weakness in their internal organs or other health issues ( lung problem, heart problem, kidney problem, liver problem, and or more then the age of 60 ) they can do it in Chen Man Ching or other same class of TCMA ways.[/QUOTE]
Have you heard about this theory?
If you can walk 8 miles daily, your body will detect all the problems in the first 4 miles. For the last 4 miles, your body starts to repair itself.
If all you care about is “health” then forget about Qi, go outdoor, see the beautiful world, enjoy your life, and live forever.
[B]20 Channels of Qi flow medirians coverage
Qi flow can be think as hydraulic system of the mechanical system
the 12 normal medirians channel coverage is for handling the hand/feet action syncronized root-unroot with the breathing coordination
the 8 special medirians channel coverage is for handling different direction of motion, displacement and/or angling.
IE: Ren Du medirian is handling the forward and backward motion.
[/B]
I think some people, who think of themselves as practical-minded/fighting-oriented-and this is not meant in a derogatory fashion, may see this explanation as too mystical, or mumbo-jumbo.
I am wondering if by using the meridian terminology, although it is easier for you to convey it, but harder for others to get it.
If you eliminate the terms, you still have the descriptions of the actions.
[QUOTE=Andy;1098110]Hi Hendrick
In one of your earlier posts you mentioned 4 types or ways of power generation. I believe they were:
a, sinking power
b, friction power
c, streching/contracting /twisting/elastic power
d, opposition power.
Would you mind elaborating on them or giving some examples. Are there some styles that favor one over the other?
thanks[/QUOTE]
sounds similar to Open Close Float Sink Swallow Spit
Good idea,
Think of these 20CH as 20 strings which handling a puppet. human body has 20 strings could be manipulate to do different action.
The term cannot be eliminated because these term are refer to human body 's “strings” instead of philosophy or modeling. advance player in TCMA actually make use of the Qi flow of these 20Ch. general player needs to cover all the 20 strings area of the body to have full active physical body.
it is all about human body motion’s handling.
Those are in the domain of energetic change the energetic pattern change the physical.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1098504]
I think some people, who think of themselves as practical-minded/fighting-oriented-and this is not meant in a derogatory fashion, may see this explanation as too mystical, or mumbo-jumbo.
I am wondering if by using the meridian terminology, although it is easier for you to convey it, but harder for others to get it.
If you eliminate the terms, you still have the descriptions of the actions.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1098505]sounds similar to Open Close Float Sink Swallow Spit[/QUOTE]
Nope. it is different stuffs.
Say we perform an Open, still we need to answer where is the power source of that action is from. is it a single power source or a combination of power sources.
same with if we perform a sink, where is the power source is from? different people, different style, different condition, the power source or sources will be different.
so, if one doesnt get to this level of details, one will not that effective in handling the power generation.
it is like, either it is a fuel power? solar power? wind power? neucler power? electric power? or combination?
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1098516]Nope. it is different stuffs.
Say we perform an Open, still we need to answer where is the power source of that action is from. is it a single power source or a combination of power sources.
same with if we perform a sink, where is the power source is from? different people, different style, different condition, the power source or sources will be different.
so, if one doesnt get to this level of details, one will not that effective in handling the power generation.
it is like, either it is a fuel power? solar power? wind power? neucler power? electric power? or combination?[/QUOTE]
agreed. A “simple” action may be comprised of many sublties and movements combining to form that action.
btw-great thread, Hendrick. This sis something I will have to sit down with and spend time-unfortunately, trying to read a post here and there between classes doesn’t do it justice.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1098523]agreed. A “simple” action may be comprised of many sublties and movements combining to form that action.
btw-great thread, Hendrick. This sis something I will have to sit down with and spend time-unfortunately, trying to read a post here and there between classes doesn’t do it justice.[/QUOTE]
Thanks.
Let me clarify again on the power source.
as we know when we take an action in a close loop system, three things comes with it.
1, the power source
2, the power transportation mechanics
3, the six directional force vectors resultant force and trajectory.
So say we strike a general karate type of middle punch
1, the power source will be non single but a combination of hip twist, arm stretch, horse rooting…etc and depend of different type of horse stance, IE. san chin, forward or back ward stance the amount of rooting power or sinking power will be different. also, different people will have a different combination of the horse rooting, the hip twist…etc.
and, depend on the strike, how it meet resistance or not and what type of resistance, the power sources will change according to the reaction force. and sometime, the strike got intercepted, so at that time, could one switch source to maintain the strike forward or the whole thing will crash like a out of control car…
So, in Fajing, one handling these in very details because as we mention above, a big part of Fajing is a juggling of different power sources.
In addition, as we model the 3 major mother martial art “DNA” of the TCMA as Shao Lin = weight lifting , Taiji = Swinging hammer , Emei = Break dancing.
Thus, due to the difference of these engine, the power source combination will be different in the begining.
IE a shao lin weight lifting type middle punch fajin, will be different to a Taiji swinging hammer type middle punch fajin, will be different to a emei break dancing type middle punch fajin.
2, Same with the power sources, Power transportation mechanics will be varied due to different style. Qi medirians or qi flow channels influence this part of the play big time.
3, The idea of the six directional force vectors resultant force and trajectory is to have a balance handling of the striking, timing…pentration…etc.
the six directional force vectors resultant force and trajectory will be also varied due to different style, different power source, different transportation mechanics, and different opposition power. without this part, one is “striking blind” or just strike and have no handling after the strike.
in advance TCMA, one actually test out the above while doing set or doing Zhang Zhong or standing. one might be seen to not move or move slowly such as the SLT practice but all the three keys above are tested at any instant.
That is the level we like to investigating into if we are serious on the subject.
But then, let’s not expect every one will go these far.
So, one can look at the three keys of Fajing above as
1, power sourcing, 2, power transporting, 3, real time sensing, execution, and balancing.
IMHO, those who knows and can handle the above 3 is called Dong Jin or Knowing the Jin in the taiji classic.
as it says
From careful investigation and experience, one may gradually realise how to comprehend energy (dong jin). From comprehending energy, you will attain by degrees spiritual illumination (shen ming). Nevertheless, without an exertion of effort over time, one will not be able to suddenly have a thorough understanding of it.
Qi, Silence… two doors… why are they needed?
why?
Because there are lots of things which we cant animate with our mind or physical body; but needs to be animate in one realm above , in the realm of awareness, qi, mind, and physical.