<<Gee, the pot calling the kettle black! Lets see what was written a couple paragraphs earlier>>Tom
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the coffee!
Have you got one for yourself?
yylee
yylee Wrote>
From the web sites that I have looked at, Chinese historians do not value the book of “Xilu legend” highly at all.
Fromw the written text I have it quotes about 11 diffrent sources(books) and a large majority of the refrences are from the twentith century.
Rene Wrote>
. In the early 1900s, Sun Yat-Sen ordered the National Historians to assemble them into a working history he could use to convince the overseas Triads that they had nationalistic roots, and thus gain their support to lead the country. The historians couldn’t really succeed, of course, because even in this origin, the Shaolin, and hence the rebellion wasn’t patriotic, it was vengeful.
I’ve been thinking about this…and I couldn’t understand how most of the refrences I have listed are from China, so I couldn’t really see how Communist China would promote something Sun Yat Sen was preaching???
Sheldon
Hey Hendrik/Tom!
A wise man learns from ones mistakes, An even wiser man learns from the mistakes of others!
Dont Feed The Trolls!
Unless of couse you like playing with children.
Regards,
David,
You’re correct. Modern scholars, especially Chinese ones, would probably laugh as loud at the Xilu legends being talked about as history as NASA would someone going on their boards and talking about the moon being made of Green Cheese based on old folk stories.
Things then were little different in essance than they are now. Everyone needed money and power. The stories helped them attract new members and make more money in their pyramid model. It was good business.
Sheldon,
It went through phases, first Sun Yat-Sen, then the French, then the PRC. The PRC chose to remodel things to show the Triads were early communits who organized along the ideals of mutual aid, and pooled resources to help with equipment purchases, birth, death, and wedding expenses, self-protection, etc. An aspect, to be sure, but one they pushed as heavily as Sun Yat-Sen did Shaolin patriots. Unfortunately, the PRC also left most of the historical archives locked away and didn’t let anyone in until the end of the 20th century. Qin Baoqi did some very pivotal work at that point.
Again, it would all make sense to you if you consulted the modern works. (Or is this some ingeniuous plan to get me to type them all out for you just to save a few quid?)
Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]David,
You’re correct. Modern scholars, especially Chinese ones, would probably laugh as loud at the Xilu legends being talked about as history as NASA would someone going on their boards and talking about the moon being made of Green Cheese based on old folk stories.
Things then were little different in essance than they are now. Everyone needed money and power. The stories helped them attract new members and make more money in their pyramid model. It was good business.
[/B]
Rene
It is easy to find translations of the book “Shaolin Fang Gu” by Wen Yu Chen ISBN:7-5306-2830-5. One version by Chris Toepker of the name “The Riddle of Southern Shaolin” has the following:
"Fan Wen Lian’s 1941 revision of the "Complete History of China? (school text book), struck out the line "Kang Xi’s 13th year, the triads were formed?they were begun by the Putian, Fujian Jiu Lian Mountain Shaolin Temple monks,? because it was seen as incorrect and nothing but legend because Putian does not have a Jiu Lian Mountain. Also, "martial monks? are not solely from Shaolin. In the Yuan Dynasty, the Quan Zhou Kai Yuan monastery also had fighting monks. Therefore, the words “martial monks? carved on the stele cannot be definitively related to Shaolin, northern or southern.”
http://www.hungkuen.net/history-riddleofshaolin.htm
Although Southern Shaolin has been rebuilt, there is still much room for further historical research.
Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
[B]<<Damo has to use Laka sutra to certify his decendent for mind seal.
Fifth patriach has to use Diamond Sutra to certify his decendent for mind seal.>>Hendrik
**Is that something new for you to tell the world about it? If not, I prefer listen to Karen Carparter’s songs than Hendrik’s I-tell-you-so.
<<Now, Rolling hand, the mighty of all Chan, claiming something EVEN the CHAN Patriach will not practice.>>Hendrik
**Now, what are you saying? Hendrik, Please don’t put your words in my mouth, and don’t speak for Ch’an either. If you are a true Ch’an practioner, you begin to see stop talking about Charlie Chan is the only way to help you see how you can create basic goodness for yourself and others on the spot.
[/B]
Since you claim a different teaching compare to the teaching of Chan School.
Don’t you think it is your responsibiliy to explain where your Chan is from?
If it is your invention, then say so. It is perfectly ok.
[B]
<<Rolling Hand,
so who is your Chan teacher who Transmittes the Mind Seal to You? what is your Chan legacy? Which Sutra was used as Certification?>>Hendrik
**Those who know do not speak; those who speak do not know. If you want to discuss Chan with RH, the first thing you need to do is to go to see Guru Chogyam in Tibet, and let’s see if you’re qualifty to speak about Ch’an. [/B]
Are you Saying that Buddha who’s teaching recorded in all those sutras don’t know what he is talking about since you claim who know do not speak?
Chan is a Chinese School and transmission. What Tibetian legacy has to do with the Chan legacy of China?
As for Guru Chogyam, or other Rimpoches, I am certainly interested to speak of Ganges MAHA Mudra with them.
As I qualify or not why don’t you ask them.
Certainly, one dont ask about Mac Donard’s bugger quailification from Bugger King.
[B]
<<IT is time for you to answer quetions don’t you? and by the way, Clock is ticking. EVery second passing mark that you agree with me on the Shao Lin His-story. See, I am wrong. But where is your evident to support I am wrong?>>Hendrik
**It’s time for you to look a little deeper about your own lineage, why is Yik Kam’s Kung Fu the same as Shaolin Bok Hok Kuen? Don’t you think there’s a connection there? Regardless Yik Kam’s White Crane is from Emie or Shaolin Bok Hok Kuen, the fact is fact; WCK is WCK, White Crane is White Crane, do you get it? Dr Yang Jing-Ming also has a book about White Crane Kung-Fu, many pictures on his book and Yik Kam’s Kung-Fu are almost the same! I think that’s the DNA you’ve been looking for, isn’t it?
[/B]
Sure, WCK is WCK,
White CRane is white Crane.
but what makes SLT is SLT?
What is your opion and your evidents?
Certainly, You can keep speculate about Yik kam’s SLT but you have never seen YIK KAm SLT and the record. You might want to question yourself why do you always like to speculate what you have no idea about.
Again, don’t shift focus, I need your evidents. Clock is ticking.
[B]
<<By the way, I have also waiting for you to translate this about your Shao Lin for weeks now.
http://www.geocities.com/quan_fa/shaolin.html
Since your english is great and much much better then me. Why don’t you translate this for us. and it will help the VTM researchers to know what the real Chinese historians research.>>Hendrik
**First, why do you feel the need to attack the VTM and the Gee Sim family? Second, these gossips about Gee Sim from this link are nothing but a whole bunch of BBBsss. If you want to know the real history of Gee Sim, you should speak to Grandmaster Andreas Hoffmann or Benny Meng. They are the real experts on Gee Sim history.
Unlike you, they don’t look up the internet to find some third hand info and call it as a fact, they’re THERE in person, doing research for the whole MA world, not just for your Yik Kam family.
I was from Fatshan, I had heard all of these stories before, but I don’t like to spread all these gossips and rumors like you and your friends did in the past, because I know they’re just hear and say type of stories, nothing is there. IMO, the VTM is doing the right thing to go directly to the sources of information…Hoffmann, William Cheung, Yip Ching, May Yat, Garrett Cee…Hong Kong, China, everywhere to do their jobs. [/B]
It is just a simple discussion of Facts and translation of what the Chinese Historians has found about Southern Shao Lin since VTM published article and make claims.
Here, We are just reveal different source of history imformations. Why get upset? If it is not true then just not true. that simple.
What Gossips? IT is written black and white by the Chinese Historians.
So why make it complicated by dropping names and attacking me?
Don’t you see it is about facts not about me?
I respect your belive. However, you need to respect other’s also. you can reason with me but attacking me and accusation is no good what if you are dead wrong? there always a 50/50 chance.
Beside, you don’t even know where I was in China tracing the Breaking in rout of Lee zhi-Chen to BeiJing where forcing the Ming emperor to commit suicide 16xx … to SHang Hai 1850’s.and … So again don’t make assumption .
And from Fatsan doesn’t give you a ticket to the truth. There might be some others who has even go further then all of us but not saying a thing.
We all are equal. You can be correct in certain things which I will not argue with you. But, look as in Chinese saying, how vast is heaven how thick is earth?
how are we so sure we always right?
We can’t
Originally posted by Jim Roselando
[B]Hey Hendrik/Tom!
A wise man learns from ones mistakes, An even wiser man learns from the mistakes of others!
Dont Feed The Trolls!
Unless of couse you like playing with children.
Regards, [/B]
Jim,
YOu are right.
Hendrik
Hi YY,
Since my ancestors are from both Fujian Sao An and Pootian.
so do I have a ticket to say what I am saying is the truth and only truth? ha ha hahah Ofcause joking.
Hendrik
Originally posted by Phenix
[B]Hi YY,
Since my ancestors are from both Fujian Sao An and Pootian.
so do I have a ticket to say what I am saying is the truth and only truth? ha ha hahah Ofcause joking.
Hendrik [/B]
Hi Hendrik
Then you must have fought the Qing in your past lifes! Ha ha ha, just joking…
YY
Originally posted by yylee
[B]
Hi Hendrik
Then you must have fought the Qing in your past lifes! Ha ha ha, just joking…
YY [/B]
Hi YY,
If you are buddist and belive in reincarnation as the tibetian…, why not?
why some can find the path to Dien Chun Dang but some can’t disregard how many times one goes to china.
and some belive in Shaolin some don’t.
some goes direct to Emei. and some stay to belive the fighting of Red turban?
HaHaHa, speak in dreaming.
Rene, yylee,
Rene Wrote>
Again, it would all make sense to you if you consulted the modern works. (Or is this some ingeniuous plan to get me to type them all out for you just to save a few quid?)
I think any text…if it is 200yrs old is relevent to finding out the truth, I guess I need to hurry up and finish retypeing that text into ‘word’ so I can post it here.
And, if you want Rene…saving money is a good thing;)
yylee Wrote>
One version by Chris Toepker of the name “The Riddle of Southern Shaolin” has the following:
I know who Chris Toepker is…he’s over at Southern Fist online, trains in Hung Ga.
As soon as I’ve finished I’ll post it and see what you guys can make of it???
Sheldon
Re: Rene, yylee,
I think any text…if it is 200yrs old is relevent to finding out the truth, I guess I need to hurry up and finish retypeing that text into ‘word’ so I can post it here.
And, if you want Rene…saving money is a good thing;)
----Seems to me that a fairy tale is still a fairy tale whether is it 2 yrs old, 200 yrs old, or 2000 yrs old. You have to be careful what you accept as history, even if it is written down.
Keith