For the VTM Shaolin experts

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Gentlemen (Richard and Chango),

Master Loewenhagen has stated that the VTM staff and Chango have well over 20 years each of Shaolin systems experience, in addition to their backgrounds in Moy Yat Wing Chun, Tae Kwon Do and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. As such I would consider you then to have a strong amount of expertise in Shaolin.

I would be quite interested then in hearing about which Shaolin arts the 3 seeds of Wing Chun namely Tan Sau, Bong Sau and Fook Sau are derived from.

I will also add that I have no background in Shaolin systems myself, which is why I defer to you gentlemen. From the books, videos, movies and still photographs of Shaolin arts I have not seen the “goat gripping stance”, chung choy battle punches or the 3 seeds displayed in Shaolin systems such as 18 Lohan. Perhaps I’ve missed them.

If you could refer me to which arts to look at for these elements of Shaolin DNA I would appreciate it. Then I can go do some further looking on my own to find these key DNA markers for Wing Chun within these Shaolin systems.

Thanks in advance!

2

Yat Chum Dai Si

Interesting question Steve,

My followup question to either you or the VTM folks is, what kind of documentation is there on the existence of Yat Chum Dai Si as a person within the Shaolin community?

In doing web searches for that particular name, I only find reference to it from Wing Chun websites and not from Shaolin related websites. Isn’t it rather odd that the 22nd generation grandmaster is not mentioned by any other southern shaolin school by this name?

For example the Shaolin Do history (http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml)s tates that Su Kong Tai Djin was the last Fukien Shaolin temple grandmaster.

http://www.angelfire.com/ky/shaolindo/grandmastersukong.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ky/shaolindo/history.html

3

20 years of shoulin and it’s relationship to HFY.

Hello Scuba steve.
please read my post at " I want to know about HFY" these “seeds” came about from understanding proper time and space according to the human body.

Chango (SGS) :smiley:

4

Re: 20 years of shoulin and it’s relationship to HFY.

Originally posted by Chango
[B]Hello Scuba steve.
please read my post at " I want to know about HFY" these “seeds” came about from understanding proper time and space according to the human body.

Chango (SGS) :smiley: [/B]

So the “3 seeds” of WC don’t come from Shaolin; but from understanding proper time and space according to the human body?

5

Interesting Question Steve and Dave,

I have a few questions which I hope the expert explain also.

A,

In the book Complete WC, it wrote that (based from Hoffman?)

“A Jee Shim Wing Chun practitioner will not face his opponent squarely, and one is advised to " Teng Nuo Yee Shun Shuok” (Rise up Jump about, and shift quickly)."

How is this " Rise up and Jump about and shift quickly type " of art (which is using the same " Teng Nuo…" concept as today’s Mt. Soong Shao Lin’s TaiTzu type Long fist concept) is the root of WC as one magazine article claim? This seems to be very different compare with today’s WCK.

Doesn’t Tan Sau Ng or Yat Chan has already modified the shao lin art to a superior WCK 300 years ago in WingChunTong ? But then how come Jee Shim WC still doing similar things as Mt. Soong Shao Lin today? So what has Tan Sau Ng or Yat Chan creates? Where is the WCK within the TaiTzu type Long fist?

B,

On the other hand, there is Southern Shao Lin which passed down by Buddhist Monk.

http://members.lycos.nl/saolim/

Master Sik was the 49th generation of Shao Lin…

Please explain which Shao Lin is Yat Chan from?

Thanks in advance.

6

I can see why you would ask this.

Wingman,
Keep in mind proper time and space according to the human structure was realized through shaolin practice. So we cannot just say that it came from shaolin movement X and Y! I would have had to been there when the Time and space paradigm was realized. Proper Time and Space as the reference helps us realize what is real. The first of the 10 wisdoms would be “Sic” or knowlege. We use this to help us eliminate suffering. We are all affected by time and space and energy. You cannot be seperate from these things. Time space and energy is a constant. I hope you see the logic flow here. I hope this clears things up for you.

Hendrik,

Hendrik wrote:
How is this " Rise up and Jump about and shift quickly type " of art (which is using the same " Teng Nuo…" concept as today’s Mt. Soong Shao Lin’s TaiTzu type Long fist concept) is the root of WC as one magazine article claim? This seems to be very different compare with today’s WCK.

–Before I go into discussions with you about what is shaolin and what is not. I have to ask you where you draw your shaolin knowlege? I have practiced various forms of shaolin kung fu since the age of 5. (my father was my first teacher) I have been doing Lohan quan since my teens. Along with various kicking technques and extensive Chin na. I also play contemporary wushu and tan tui for physical fitness (which draws alot of it’s movements from northern shaolin) I also know routines with long weapons and short weapons and flexible. So this all adds up to now 26 years of practice and expereince. Again I like to discuss on the basis of experience and not "I read this somewhere"As my frame of reference. But at the same time I will take it for what it is worth. Of course you know my bio when it comes to WCK. So know you know me. so I need to know who are you? where do you draw your knowlege?

I would also have to address your asking about “Today’s WCK” I’m unclear on what you mean by this. I find that HFY and Chi Sim could not be put in this catagory in any way shape of form. If you are talking about the WCK that has the terms Tan,bong, Fook. I have to say that form what I understand Chi sim does not use these terms and HFY has a very precise formula that defines what we call Tan ,bong ,fook. In fact if it does not fit the formula (Proper time and space) we do not recognize it as any of these terms. I hope you understand when I say "what you call"Tan ,bong and fook. I would not consider it to be the same thing. So by this alone I cannot say that HFY or Chi sim will fit into your “todays WCK” box. That being said I can say that we use the same words but I don’t this we speak the same language. so to speak.

So before we go any further let’s lay the ground work and find a comon language to eliminate any miscomunications. I really do not wish to run you off like I did on our last thread. :rolleyes:

It’s nothing personal but when challenged I like to qualify the person before engaging. I do value my time and energy.

Chango (SGS) :cool:

:cool:

7

I found some info for Yaat Chum Dai Si. I’m not sure if that’s what your looking for planetwc.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/founders/founders_yatchum.shtml

8

Dear Hendrik,

Please, let out my family from these kind of discussions. We only like to share what our ancestors teached us. The article from “Complete wing chun” and all translations are from my friend Robert Chu.
Once again, Hendrik, please let out my Chi Sim family in your
historical/political discussions.

Thank you.

Andreas Hoffmann

9

Hey Train,

Thanks, I’m aware of Wing Chun website references to Yat Sum.
I don’t find other references outside by either local Mt Heng references, Shaolin temple references or Chan buddhism references.

http://www.shinranworks.com/hymns/shotokuhosan1.htm

http://qigong.hypermart.net/Mount-heng_2.htm

http://www.askasia.org/VISIBLE_TRACES/maps/mp12.html

Again, no reference to Yat Chum Um Jee or Yat Chum Dai Si.

Try a google search to see what I mean. Pan Nam (a Wing Chun master) is the only other reference for this name, it would seem that there would be a reference to Yat Chum in either Chan or Shaolin history given the importance of the the Mt Heng temples.

Originally posted by Train
[B]I found some info for Yaat Chum Dai Si. I’m not sure if that’s what your looking for planetwc.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/founders/founders_yatchum.shtml [/B]

10

Dave - FWIW, in his Chinese article with Pan Nam, author Law did try to “prove” the existance of Yat Chum Um Jee (Convent Founder Speck of Dust). He went through a rather length spiel on Shaolin generational names and claimed Yat was one of them, along with Yat Niem (One Thought, a well known name, though I can’t remember offhand if it was historical or legendary - Hendrik?) I gave it to a Chinese historical friend of mine who found it confusing and unsupported. I’m not aware of any non-WCK based references either, however.

Andreas - I think if Chi Sim WCK is to be left out of the discussion, it should be left out by all parties. It’s difficult to discuss around it if everytime there is a HFY reference there seems inexplicably to be an attachment to Chi Sim. As you know, I believe every art should be able to stand on its own, and while cross-checking is always valuable, none should have to lean on another.

Hendrik - I think Chi Sim WCK is a very well established art, with roots easily found in China, and many sources of information to corroborate. I also think that, if anything has a shot at being Shaolin WCK, Chi Sim is the one. It has the mechanics, the power generation, and the footwork patterns that closely match what is classically considered to be Southern Shaolin (and I think your comments point to that). Likewise, its terminology, its historical references, etc. are consistent with this thesis, which so far has not been the case with any other branch I’m aware of (others usually claim to be some ‘new’ shift or thinking from Shaolin, and not Shaolin as it traditionally was). So, to echo Andreas’ point, I think its better not to mix the branch in when discussing other WCK.

RR

11

Originally posted by Andreas Hoffman
[B]Dear Hendrik,

Please, let out my family from these kind of discussions. We only like to share what our ancestors teached us. The article from “Complete wing chun” and all translations are from my friend Robert Chu.
Once again, Hendrik, please Similar with you I would want VTM let out my Cho/Yik Kam family in ChiSim and HFY historical/political discussions.

Thank you.

Andreas Hoffmann [/B]

HI Andreas,

Great to know your comment about the translation of your Kuen Kuit.

All this discussion about Technical origin begin with…

Richard wrote that " For the next Century, both Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun fighters were trained and employed secretly…
The Second phase of Wing Chun development, Modification and Public Awareness… Yip Man, Gu Lao… Others lineages include Pao Fa Lien, Yuen Kay San, Pan Nam, Cho Family…" ---- pg 34, Sep/Oct 2001, Kungfu magazine.

Similar with you, Andreas, I would also like for others to let out my Cho/Yik Kam family. That is why I discuss here.

Thank you

Hendrik Santo

12

Re: I can see why you would ask this.

Chango,

"–Before I go into discussions with you about what is shaolin and what is not. I have to ask you where you draw your shaolin knowlege? I have practiced various forms of shaolin kung fu since the age of 5. (my father was my first teacher) I have been doing Lohan quan since my teens. Along with various kicking technques and extensive Chin na. I also play contemporary wushu and tan tui for physical fitness (which draws alot of it’s movements from northern shaolin) I also know routines with long weapons and short weapons and flexible. So this all adds up to now 26 years of practice and expereince. Again I like to discuss on the basis of experience and not "I read this somewhere"As my frame of reference. But at the same time I will take it for what it is worth. Of course you know my bio when it comes to WCK. So know you know me. so I need to know who are you? where do you draw your knowlege? "

First of all your background in Chinese Martial art is sincerely respected.

For who am I that is not important, If you are interested about me there are simple bio of me in Rene’s articles. If you think that is not enough, let say, I have studied various kind of Martial arts since 1970 since I am from ASIA. as for Shao Lin, I am a student of a Chan monk with Fujian Southern Shao Lin root. As for Chan, I have two Chan monks as teachers, one from the South and one from the North both are elderly in Sangha eventhough from different lineages of Chan. On other hand, my grandfather is the native of Poo Tien area of Fujian which some consider there is a Shao Lin temple there. .. Since you ask, I have to respect your question. So, just briefly touch based here.

It is my belive that if it is a Fact in the past, then disregard of who present it, it will be well respected. As the WCK saying said that
" learning has no senior or junior, he who master the art is the sifu" I like this saying because it is beyond age and race and fair.
So, for me, bio is not important.

As for knowlege, Chango, in the Chinese martial art family tradition, there are plenty of collection of classical writings.
Say, if one sees " Tong Nou Shan Chaan" that is Shao Lin.
If one sees " Peng Lui Chi An" one knows it is TaiChi.
If one sees " Lay Lau Hoi Song" one knows that is WingChun…
So, there are alots of these flowing around in Asia.
And Shao Lin’s Tong Nou Shan Chaan obviously very different from WingChun’s Lay Lou Hui Song.

As I said before, if one knows how to read Classical Chinese there are alots problems solved. The signatures are there.
The Key is in Classical Chinese, alots of answer are there.
I sincerely encourage you to learn that language.

" I would also have to address your asking about “Today’s WCK” I’m unclear on what you mean by this."

Today’s WCK is about WCK we see today. Is this the same with 40years ago? 100years ago?..
See, there were photographs pictures about WCK 40 years ago. There are writting about WCK 100years ago… So, we need to look at which period of WCK. and every period of WCK.

"find that HFY and Chi Sim could not be put in this catagory in any way shape of form.
If you are talking about the WCK that has the terms Tan,bong, Fook. I have to say that form what I understand Chi sim does not use these terms "

Since Brother Andreas has post to keep his family out of discussion, we need to honor his request.
So, here on, I suggest we Keep Chi Sim out of our discussion.

"and HFY has a very precise formula that defines what we call Tan ,bong ,fook.
n fact if it does not fit the formula (Proper time and space) we do not recognize it as any of these terms. I hope you understand when I say "what you call"Tan ,bong and fook. I would not consider it to be the same thing. So by this alone I cannot say that HFY or Chi sim will fit into your “todays WCK” box. That being said I can say that we use the same words but I don’t this we speak the same language. so to speak. "

Chango, you are a good guy

what if WCK’s signature is more than " Tan Bong Fook" language?
it is not in the name but in the concept or operation?

For example, The White Crane’s water element hand looks like a Tan Sau, it flips also. But it that the WCK’s Tan?

Have you think about that?

On the other hand, In Chan, it is about Smash the Space into pices. So, the Concept of Space and time doesn’t reflex Chan. IMHO.

13

Yip Man WCK looks the same now as it did 100yrs ago

Hendrik wrote

Today’s WCK is about WCK we see today. Is this the same with 40years ago? 100years ago?..
See, there were photographs pictures about WCK 40 years ago. There are writting about WCK 100years ago… So, we need to look at which period of WCK. and every period of WCK.

So your saying for example that,say Yip Man Wing Chun looks exactly how it did when Yip Man practiced it.:confused:

Do you think that it may have evolved slightly:confused: with all the different people that are playing it now.

Leung Ting look’s nothing like Moy Yat,William Cheung looks nothing like Victor Kan and Tsui Sheung Tin looks nothing like Hawkins Cheung.
These are all Yip Man students but they all look different:confused:

Sheldon :wink:

14

If Andreas wants ji shim left out of the discussions- that is understandable. But Hendrik is not the one who in public started with
a lineage story passed off as history.

As quoted:Richard wrote that " For the next Century, both Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun fighters were trained and employed secretly…
The Second phase of Wing Chun development, Modification and Public Awareness… Yip Man, Gu Lao… Others lineages include Pao Fa Lien, Yuen Kay San, Pan Nam, Cho Family…" ---- pg 34, Sep/Oct 2001, Kungfu magazine.

Hardly history- except as a specific lineage’s story. I dont know the motions of ji shim- so I dont discuss it.
Modification again. Modified wing chun- similar to the TWC thesis.

BTW, Rene seems to think that the slt didnt exist till the red junks.
I disagree- but neither of us has time machine for certification.
I think that the weapons and some additional fighting applications
were added in the red junk stage. Different inferences based on different premises.

15

Hi Joy,

> BTW, Rene seems to think that the slt didnt exist till the red junks. I disagree-

And so does Hendrik, and that’s great. IMHO, mature, professional adults should be able to disagree in a respectful, even mutually beneficial manner. I certainly leave room for the possibility that SLT was created prior to the Red Junk, I just can’t find it prior to that so far. Same way I leave room for the possibility that it’s all Shaolin, even if I can’t reconcile it at the moment. The more intelligent, passionate people sharing their good faith ideas purely for the well being of our art, the better, IMHO.

RR

16

Re: 20 years of shoulin and it’s relationship to HFY.

Hey Chango,

Good to see your response. By the way I purchased the VTM friendship seminar tape which had the public unveiling of HFY.
Benny Meng demonstrated the first set of Hung Fa Yi, after I think Marty Goldberg did the TWC first set and Jeremy did the Meng version of Ip Man Bil Jee. What was interesting to me was the similarity between the two forms and movements of William Cheung’s Wing Chun (as demonstrated by Marty) and Hung Fa Yi (as demonstrated by Benny Meng).

And by the way I worked out with a Hung Fa Yi student during one of our Wing Chun camps many years ago. There was no mention of Time and Space, nor seeming difference in his approach to the Chi Sao platform. He just rolled like everyone else.

By the way, when one performs the Hung Fa Yi SLT, as there is no opponent, where does time and space come into play and where are the differences between what you are doing structurally and what one of William Cheung’s students does with his sets? As I believe you folks have also hosted William himself to the VTM.

Thanks and regards,

David Williams

Originally posted by Chango
[B]Hello Scuba steve.
please read my post at " I want to know about HFY" these “seeds” came about from understanding proper time and space according to the human body.

Chango (SGS) :smiley: [/B]

17

Re: Re: 20 years of shoulin and it’s relationship to HFY.

Originally posted by planetwc
[B]Hey Chango,…

And by the way I worked out with a Hung Fa Yi student during one of our Wing Chun camps many years ago. There was no mention of Time and Space, nor seeming difference in his approach to the Chi Sao platform. He just rolled like everyone else…

Thanks and regards,

David Williams

[/B]

Hi David,
I know your response is directed towards Chango, but I am wondering what your question is regarding the above quote.

Thanks,
-Savi.

18

Re: Re: Re: 20 years of shoulin and it’s relationship to HFY.

Savi,

No question, just an observation of Hau Chuen Saan Sau regarding Hung Fa Yi and Chi Sao. I’ve seen the video of Hung Fa Yi at the VTM, I’ve felt Hung Fa Yi hands and I’ve not seen a difference. Personal observation for what it’s worth (which isn’t much). :stuck_out_tongue:

Chango was curious about opinion regarding HFY (Rene’s opinion that is), I merely offered mine.

Regards,

David

Originally posted by Savi
[B]

Hi David,
I know your response is directed towards Chango, but I am wondering what your question is regarding the above quote.

Thanks,
-Savi. [/B]

19

Re: Time and Space

Ok and “time and space” are just part of the 3 stages of Chan meditation practice. So you are saying then that Tan, Fook and Bong are physical manifestations of stage 2 meditation and not something derived from one of the other Shaolin meditation forms like Diamond fist.

=========================================
http://www.dharmadrum.org/chan/chan.asp?NumID=585

Three Stages of Chan Meditation

Stage 1:

To balance the development of body and mind in order to attain mental and physical health. Various methods of physical exercise for walking, standing, sitting, and reclining are used. They are unique exercise methods combining Indian Hatha Yoga and Chinese daoyin (exercises for channeling internal energy), and can bring physical health as well as results in meditation. Thus, one who practices Chan well will definitely have a strong body capable of enduring hardship. The mind will establish a state of self-confidence, determination, optimism, peace, and stability.

Stage 2:

From the sense of the small “I” to the large “I.” When you practice the method of cultivation taught by your teacher, for example, huatou or silent illumination, you will enlarge the sphere of the outlook of the small “I” until it coincides with time and space . The small “I” merges into the entire universe, forming a unity. Since you have joined and become one with universe, the world of your own body and mind no longer exists. What exists is the universe, which is infinite in depth and breadth. You yourself are not only a part of the universe, but also the totality of it.

Stage 3:

From the large “I” to no “I.” Chan is inconceivable. It is neither a concept nor a feeling. Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonize with Chan. Therefore, Chan is the territory of the wise, and the territory of the brave. Not being wise, one would not believe that after abandoning all attachments another world could appear before him. Not being brave, one would find it very hard to discard everything he has in this life - careers, knowledge, and material things.

In short, the purpose of Chan practice is to see your self-nature, and this insight is called “enlightenment.” One might encounter all kinds of good experiences, physical and mental, which enhance your confidence and faith in your practice and in the Dharma, but they are not genuine enlightenment. Genuine enlightenment must be in accord with the principles of Chan: no-form, no-mind, and no-abiding. But even this is not enough. After seeing your self-nature, you need to deepen your experience even further and bring it into maturation. You should have enlightenment experiences again and again and support them with continuous practice.

Originally posted by Chango
[B]Hello Scuba steve.
please read my post at " I want to know about HFY" these “seeds” came about from understanding proper time and space according to the human body.

Chango (SGS) :smiley: [/B]

20

Hi Planetwc,

You said that you have touched hands with an HFY member a long time ago, but you did not see the difference between HFYWC and Yip Man WC. Well, how well did you know that HFY member? Did you know his background, as in what else he knew besides HFYWC? just asking?