Rene - HFY Champion!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I’ve repeatedly said over the last few years that I have no problem with HFY (actually think its very interesting), but I do have a problem with the way HFY has been mishandled thusfar online and in print.

Since b!tching about it obviously hasn’t worked, I’ve decided to “put my money where my mouth is” and become a HFY supporter. I will show how HFY can me much better handled online. I will champion HFY.

Obviously, I don’t know the system, but neither do the other “supporters”, so I don’t think that can be perceived as a problem. What I’ll add to the mix will be honesty, upfrontness, humility, candor, logical reasoning, and a policy of engagement.

So, please, everyone collect up all those nagging questions which haven’t been answered and I will answer them calmly, respectfully, and in a way that will engender goodwill and good feelings for HFY.

With respect,

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Someone just fainted!

Peace

David

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David,

When you wake up, if you have any questions, please do post them. I think its especially important to engender some good will with you.

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Terence,

This is a serious thread, and while I can appreciate humor, it has its time and place. In order to get respect, we must give respect.

If you have any relevant questions on HFY you would like answered, please post them. If not, please respect the rest of us enough to let us engage in productive debate.

Respectfully,

5

Maybe you have something. I was perceived as being a supporter when I defended them and ask no questions. So, I think I will follow your lead and try my best to support them as well. I too have almost NO experience in HFY, but as you mention, that has not caused much concern.

So, my first thought is how to reconcile the Cheung Ng teaching Hung Gun Biu and Wong Wah Bo if there is a hundred years between them. I think the original infomation could have been misunderstood and was not fully researched. The information was meant that Cheung Ng taught indirectly Hung Gun Biu and Wong Wah Bo. He did not teach them directly as it is proven Ng lived in 1735 and Wong Wah Bo went back to the opera after the 1850 ban on the opera.

Anything to add?

6

Rene,

Nothing is more serious to me than HFY – and I don’t appreciate your taking my unmasking as the grandmaster of HFY as humor. As you have not sworn your blood oath to me and are presumably not wearing the mandatory red jacket (and I haven’t gotten my red envelope either btw!), I cannot answer your questions about HFY at this time and space. You must first establish identity in the Ch’an vortex.

Sorry – had to get it out of my system.

Terence

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Tom,

Thank you for being part of the solution!

As for your question about Cheung Ng and the Red Junk performers, first we must all realize that there is simply no way to speak with absolute certainty about those times. All we can do is pass on what was passed down to us.

In the original family tree I received, Cheung Ng was indeed listed right above the “Red Junk Period” of Hung Gam Biu, Wong Wah-Bo, Law Man-Gung, Dai Fa Min Kam, and others. I should point out this is identical to how the late Pan Nam sifu also listed his family tree, based on his work with reporter Law.

Now, since that time more information on both the Opera and the Red Turban Rebellion has come to light, and it does look like Cheung Ng was active in the 1730s and Hung Gam Biu, et. al. was active in the 1850s, making a direct connection very unlikely to say the least. How do we reconcile this? Again, no lineage can offer historically accurate information about this time period, and in the oral transmission of lineage, some problems can arise. It’s therefore possible that 1 or more members of the family tree were ommitted for some reason (the information was lost, or was kept confidential, for example). Indeed, Benny Meng has said he spoke to a Sihing of Gee sifu who, while not possessing the technical information Gee sifu possessed, knew more history, and could fill in the missing generations (hence the update on the VTM site).

Another possible explination is that, like with other lineages and the Ng Mui/Yim Wingchun origin, due to the turbulant times and the lack of information, the system became connected with a well known figure, and like Pan Nam, linked back to a man known to have had great influence on the Red Junks.

In the end, however, please remember that history is just an interesting aside and the important thing is the art itself and how it enriches our lives today.

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Terence,

When you’ve gotten it out of your system, please do come back and feel free to ask your questions and perhaps we can build some bridges and create some harmony.

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Thank you Rene,

See, that wasn’t painful. I don’t know why we couldn’t have stated it like that to begin with. I also liked the way you did not manage to attack me, my family, and my dog. I think this can be the begining of a new era of mutual respect and understanding between HFY supporters and HFY questioners!

Thank you for your reply
Tom

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My pleasure Tom. I believe we can all benefit if we discuss things in a respectful, open manner. Please don’t hesitate to post any other questions, you or anyone.

HFY, like every branch, is a treasure, and all treasures shine brightest when properly held up to the light.

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Ok, Rene, I’ll play and play nicely with others.

RR wrote:

In the original family tree I received, Cheung Ng was indeed listed right above the “Red Junk Period” of Hung Gam Biu, Wong Wah-Bo, Law Man-Gung, Dai Fa Min Kam, and others. I should point out this is identical to how the late Pan Nam sifu also listed his family tree, based on his work with reporter Law. RR

Who provided this “original family tree”? I assume they knew it was going into “Complete Wing Chun”? And while many lineages record Wong Wah Bo and Dai Fa Min Kam as Red Boat members, tracing their lineage back to them, is their any evidence outside of HFY’s oral tradition of the existence of Hung Gam Biu? TN

Indeed, Benny Meng has said he spoke to a Sihing of Gee sifu who, while not possessing the technical information Gee sifu possessed, knew more history, and could fill in the missing generations (hence the update on the VTM site). RR

Who was this si-hing? What I find mystifying is that HFY’s “original family tree” (above) should coincide exactly with Pan Nam’s. If Garrett simply didn’t know the history as well as his sihing, why would his version match Pan’s (and not have one or two more ancestors)? TN

Terence

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Hi Terence,

Thank you for being part of the solution!

We received the tree from Gee sifu, through John (one of the original students before the VTMs involvement and the HFY name began being used publically) and it was expressly for Complete Wing Chun.

As you know, records of the Red Junk are sketchy at times. For example, Kam is known by the nicknames “Painted Face” and “New”, and not by a full proper name. Likewise, Biu is known in this family tree as “Red Turban”, perhaps a nod to the Red Turbans who fought to overthrow the Yuan, perhaps to the Red Turbans who tragically died fighting the Qing in Guangdong, or perhaps to the Red Turban common-folk who came out to support the Red Junk performers in Foshan (perhaps this was even how he encountered them?)

Now, while no other lineage lists a Hung Gam Biu, there is another Biu listed as one of the hairpins (along with Wong, Leung, Kam, etc.) in the Cho family records. While Biu is not a unique name, if Dai Fa Min Kam and Sam Kam are the same, perhaps Hung Gam Biu and the Biu from the Cho records is the same?

In either case, again, the records of that time are sketchy, and we cannot speak of them with absolute certainty (but then, people on CNN argue every day about what really happened just last week, just down the street, 150 years ago, on the other side of the world, is even more challenging).

Unfortunately, I have no information as to who this sihing was. The tree, however, was not identical to Pan Nam’s, as it listed far more members from the Red Junk period (Pan’s listed only Wong, Leung, Kam, and Lay Fook-Shun, whom I believe Gee sifu listed as Siu Sang Hung Fook, since Lay was the Siu Sang in the Opera). Gee sifu’s tree was much more complete as well, listing out the lineages for Yip Man, Yuen Kay-San, and others (though Fok Bo-Chuen was listed as a student of Law Man-Gung rather than Wong Wah-Bo, which is laterally different from Sum Nung’s listing). I can’t speculate as to why Pan Nam’s was/is missing generations.

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Dear Rene- since you are answering questions

1.is space and time- relative, absolute. measured by the simulataneity of spatially separated events, using the speed of light as absolute or not?

  1. can specific time space and direction be simultaneously assigned to a punch?

  2. Is Chan enlightment gradual or sudden?

PS- lest my questions sound like part of a small group plot…

I have had serious debates with Rene, Terence and quite a few posters who are mistakenly regarded as a gang. There is great diversity among critics of mumbo jumbo.

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what are time/space distortions in the HFY meaning of the terms?

i just keep seeing people forming black holes with their chi sau and no one can seem to answer this question, mabye you can help me out here Rene :smiley:

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Who are the others in the picture with Terence?

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Joy,

Thank you for being part of the solution!

First, please understand that many of the people currently involved with HFY are new to the art, with only a few years at most of exposure, and many learn from students or grand students. If we were back in HK in 1953, and Leung Sheung had grand students, it would be difficult to expect them to answer detailed, precise questions, even if they did have backgrounds in other arts. Now add in the fact that most people here are English, not Cantonese, and we have to deal with transliteration and translation as well. “Mumbo jumbo”, or “jibba jabba” is perhaps forgiveable under those circumstances! We’re dealing not only with Gee sifu and his unique culture, but the “middleman” culture in between, which perhaps is causing some of the confusion.

Unfortunately, I don’t have access to most of the source material sans “middleman”, but I will answer as best as I can.

  1. Space and time are relative. These are tools used to determine and achieve optimal results. Proper position in space (measured and aligned, then tested and ingrained through training) reduces the amount of time necessary to act. Similarly, it reduces the amount of options (space) and time the opponent has left to respond with. This is similar to the commonly seen proverb of “maximum results through minimum effort”, but as with most things in HFY, there is a very detailed, precise, step-by-step method used to both teach and employ the concept.

  2. By training for optimal results, even under the stress of combat, it increases the odds of acceptable results. If you train at 100%, perhaps you can achieve 80% under extreme conditions. If you only train with 80% (precision, etc.) maybe you’ll only achieve 50% which could prove unacceptable. Time and Space is just a concept that gives a student a process they can undertake to help fine tune the best reflexes possible, and verify them for themselves, so they don’t have to take any one person’s opinion as the sum total of all reality. Others probably have other ways of doing the same, but perhaps not in this manner, or described in this way.

  3. Chan can be either sudden or gradual, and while some maintain there is a strong connection between Chan and HFY, since this is a WCK forum, it is perhaps better to constrain ourselves to the martial aspects of HFY.

And yes, Joy and I have had some classic arguments which make some of the recent ones here look like love-ins. Glad that’s in the past, and that this thread can help build better understandings for all.

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TjD,

Thanks for being part of the solution!

Again, please remember that a lot of the English being used is the result of a new culture developing a vocabulary for the art, hence the vocabulary will be dependent upon that new culture: the way they think, understand, and express themselves, and it may or may not make it easier or harder for others.

While I can’t say for sure how any other person tries to assign modern English to Chinese concepts, my guess would be that as part of teaching the developmental process (not just teaching material, but teaching how to learn, validate, and teach material), the material is put through tests. A “distortion” might then be a problem that arises during the testing due to improper positioning (space) or timing (time). A little off to the right or to the left, a little late or a little early can all result in sub-optimal responses. Using the time and space learning/teaching model, a student can fine tune their responses to develop as optimal a response as possible.

I hope this has been of some help and leaves you with a more positive disposition towards HFY!

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so time is just a different way of saying take the shortest path to the target? (closest weapon -> closest target)

while space is a different way of saying occupy the centerline?

so from this, i’m assuming time/space distortions are when you screw up in either case?

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TjD,

Drawing parallels is always useful to show we’re not dealing with alien or obscure concepts, but its important to understand how far the parallel goes. HFY, like most branches, has its own distinct understanding and usage of words like “shortest path” and “centerline” (I believe they actually use a 5-line concept, involving center, mid-claviculars, and shoulders lines).

Another way to look at some of the confusion is depth of detail. For some, its enough to know a bird is a bird. For others, they’ll want to distinguish robins from hawks from hummingbirds from condors, etc. And for still others, they’ll want to distinquish each type of bird down to its most precise of sub-species, even if it involves using the Latin names.

Neither level of specificity is inherently better or worse, it just depends on what you need, and what you’re interested in drilling down to. HFY, because of their methods, likes a high degree of precision in terminology, which does not always conincide with the likes or usages of other branches.

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Any more questions? As often as people have claimed no one will answer the tough HFY questions, certainly there must be more floating around?