Question
Rene do you have any information regarding this, ‘A Record of the Xilu Incident’ and the Shaolin Monk involvment???
Sheldon
Hi Tom - Got a note to pass ya. LOL 
(actually it really was just an analogy)
Time and Space theory did not exist prior to the 1900’s.
Which theory are you speaking on?
There is no such thing as effecient time and space.
I agree with you here. Time and space are time and space. However, there are ways more efficient than others to operate within these dimensions. What’s your thoughts?
Either your timing is on or it is off.
Time and timing are seperate issues. It took me a while to understand the distinction but when I did things became a lot more clear !!!
There is nothing specail in the HFY method. This is smoke and mirrors.
I have been looking for the man behind the curtain and haven’t found him yet! Actually the meathod teaches how to recognize smoke and mirrors. By recognizing and addressing them you begin to talk about efficiency and the such.
… then why all the fuss over the theory as being perfect and such as it can still fail in the hands of mere mortals?
LOL !!! In so much as I have been exposed to the theories are solid. But like you said the person has to express the theory. And everyone knows about the human factor in things. Has anyone claimed that once you learn HFYWC you become superman??? I don’t think so. I think assertions like that come from others and are born of frustration and lack of understanding.
Good talkin with you Tom,
-David
Hi David,
I don’t think I can argue with any of your comments. They seem resonable here.
Time and timing are integrated, no? If I apply the correct technique at the correct position (space) at the correct time (timing), then … is something I have seen posted many times. Atleast this is a summing up of it. In this case as I have read it in other places, it is all the same. Time and timing are integrated as it means being at the right place at the right time. This could be a powerful statement, but I think it is also trivial in that it is obvious. Having correct structure is always importnant and something that Leung Sheung has demanded for a while, and which his lineage has posted on for years. Space is simply structure. No biggie. Got that. Time. I call that sensitivity and centerline theory. You are automatically using correct timing since your inplace at the correct time. I feel my teacher is the fastest person I met. But it is not speed related, it is effeciency by being in the right place at the right time. No magic there, nothing special except good practice and adhearance to the Kuen Kuits.
I don’t have a problem with HFY principles persay. I think there methods are probably sound. That is not the smoke and mirrors I was talking about. I think the smoke and mirrors is in the hyperbole about the methods. I have not seen anything radically different in HFY, yet it has been discribed as different. Of course I am now “confused” and didn’t really understand it. That is OK.
Could you start a seperate thread and discuss why time and space is different from what I and others are doing. Perhaps it really is and I am confused.
As far as the superman thing, I agree and no, no one has claimed it directly. However, all the articals speak to it and how the theories are perfect and infallible. But if that is true, then it should translate to the human factor, which I can not say if it has or has not. Gee is GOOD. But I did not feel the same things from his students, though many were still new and we didn’t really work out that way, so I am not judging from those experiences.
Thanks for your reply
Tom (still confused)
Good morning, gentlemen!
There is nothing specail in the HFY method. This is smoke and mirrors.–Tom
I have been looking for the man behind the curtain and haven’t found him yet! Actually the meathod teaches how to recognize smoke and mirrors. By recognizing and addressing them you begin to talk about efficiency and the such.–David
Tom,
The strategists have the sayings: ‘When you doubt your ability to meet the enemy’s attack, take the offensive yourself’, and ‘if you doubt your ability to advance an inch, then retreat a foot’.
In the morning of Tao, for the further one travels, the less one knows!
David,
The wind cannot shake a mountain. Neither praise nor blame moves the wise man. The wise man delights in the truth and follows the law of the awakened. David…you’re there!
Hi Sheldon,
Probably over a year ago I recommended a few books to. One of those books, Origins of the Tiandihui by Murray, has 4 or 5 versions of the Xilu creation myth. I still recommend you get the book and give it a good read, if your questions are sincere, it and the rest will answer many of them for you.
In a nutshell, the Xilu creation myth was something that the Triads came up with to help firm up their membership. They took various Tang dynasty accounts of Henan Shaolin, and came up with a story where the Shaolin monks helped the Qing Dynasty supress a rebellion of the Xilu (Western Barbarians, generally taken to be the Tibetains, from which stems the Shaolin vs. Lama movie legacy). The Shaolin ended the Xilu revolt and thus gained the favor of the Qing and were given gifts, etc. This caused resentment among the Qing court, who turned the emperor against the Shaolin, and ultimately caused the Shaolin Temple to be burned and the 5 Elders to flee. These elders then formed the Heaven & Earth Society, or Hung League, to revolt against the Qing (this is where the saying “Fan Qing Fu Ming” was supposed to originate within the Red Flood Pavillion).
There are many versions, from the simple to the magically fantastic. In the early 1900s, Sun Yat-Sen ordered the National Historians to assemble them into a working history he could use to convince the overseas Triads that they had nationalistic roots, and thus gain their support to lead the country. The historians couldn’t really succeed, of course, because even in this origin, the Shaolin, and hence the rebellion wasn’t patriotic, it was vengeful. They helped the Qing, and only fought them when the Qing turned against them. However, due to the immigration of the time, these were the stories first taught to most Westerners, absent history lost during the Opium Wars, the Red Turban Revolt, the Boxer Rebellion, etc. the fables and old pulp novels were all that were left, and so they spread.
Rene
Yes my question was sincere, and yes I do remember you referencing those books to me on more than one occasion;)but havn’t got round to looking into them. I had some notes, and this was mentioned in it, I’m at the moment typeing into ‘word’ so I can transfer it over here but it’s 15 pages long and seeing as I’m not the greatest at typeing it’s taking an hour a page. It references about 11 diffrent sources,
"To take the case of the Songshan Shaolin Monastery first, in what circumstances did it burn down? According to the annals of the Hung League (Hongmen) and the Heaven and Earth Society (Tiandi Hui), the seeds of the catastrophe were sown when Shaolin monks helped the Qing court to conquer invading forces from ‘Xilu’. One account of the victory over the invaders from ‘Xilu’ (another gives 'Xinzang or Tibet )can be found in the British musuems manuscript copy of the Annals of the Heaven and Earth Society, in an essay entitled ‘A Record of the Xilu Incident’ "
" ’ A Record of the Xilu Incident’ was the first item of Heaven and Earth Society literature to be discovered and it has a high degree of credibilty . Moreover there is historical evidence that Shaolin monks had aided the government in crushing foreign invaders long before the Qing Dynasty’."
It makes reference to the possibilty that ‘Xilu’ is in fact Russia???
Anyway I will post it here in a couple of days when it’s retyped in to ‘word’.
“Saffron robes stained with blood and tears/Billowed in the ill winds from Xilu”.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
LOL! It was “highly credible” about 100 years ago! The old Europeans really ate them up! LOL! “Xilu” creation myths, however, have been debunked by just about every modern scholar.
Posting that kind of stuff here is equivalent to finding an old text that discusses phlogistron and going on a chemistry board to tell everyone it’s highly factual.
Rene
Hey…I’m two pages down I may as well carry on;)
Sheldon
Hey Tom,
I don’t think I can argue with any of your comments. They seem resonable here.
Um … Ok.
Time and timing are integrated, no?
Not in the sense you are expressing here " … the correct time (timing)"
Space is simply structure.
Can you explain what you mean here? I don’t think I understand.
Time. I call that sensitivity and centerline theory. You are automatically using correct timing since your inplace at the correct time.
mmmm … not the same as what understand time to be.
I have not seen anything radically different in HFY, yet it has been discribed as different. Of course I am now “confused” and didn’t really understand it. That is OK.
I can see you don’t understand. It is ok! At least you recognize you don’t understand and that says alot!
Could you start a seperate thread and discuss why time and space is different from what I and others are doing.
I would love to but:
- In the past these threads have degenerated very quickly
- I don’t know what “others” are doing and wouldn’t speak for them
The best I can do is contribute my two cents as I’m doing here.
However, all the articals speak to it and how the theories are perfect and infallible. But if that is true, then it should translate to the human factor, which I can not say if it has or has not.
The human factor is the human factor. It reminds me of these plants that people tell me won’t die if I just keep them watered. Well guess what, I don’t have very many plants! 
Gee is GOOD
I would venture to say that Master Gee has mad skills !!
Talk with you later,
-David
Hi David and others,
First let me discuss Time and Space term as I think it leds to undue confusion. This seems to be a term that has some ties to the physics world in order to lend credibility to the theory used by HFY. Space and time were united in some theories early in the 1900?s. I am not going to embarrass myself by showing my lack of knowledge on the subject; others can go into the details in much better detail. If there is no connection between the HFY and Physics concept, then it seems the separation on HFY?s part is not very good. It seems to want to be tied to this concept. As such, I say that this is a new theory that HFY could not have had prior to the 1900?s.
By time and space, I assume that we are speaking of time as in a measurement between two occurrences of something. I think that is the only real definition of time. By space I would think you mean the mass an object is made up of and the space it takes up. A mass can be defined by the space it occupies at a precise time. And/or, we could be talking about the space as in distance between two objects. The science crowd will probably shudder at my definitions, but so be it. In martial arts, we want to stop a mass at a specific time by blocking it or moving out of the way. I am not sure of any other way of defining space and time related to martial arts.
Yes I admit I don?t know much about HFY. I only know what I was exposed to in person, what certain people on the net bring up, and what I read in articles. I do not really spend much time on the subject. I am not a wing chun historian and I overlook a lot on these subjects. It is more of convenience for me and I post as I see these things. I also am not an expert or anything on Physics.
I viewed an article called Jeung Ngh - The Father of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun
By Benny Meng and Richard Loewenhagen. In it they talk about time and space. It seems to go into some depth and since both of these people seem to be high on the organization charts, I figured it held some authority. Of course it doesn?t mean I understand it. I live only an hour away and I would LOVE to have one of the HFY people explain it in person. I do enjoy meeting them. In fact, we have been having various meetings in the bay area. Perhaps we can schedule one when many of the HFY people are in town, and the local ones should be welcome as well at any of the meets. Any ways, back on subject.
I am including some quotes from the article so you can get a sense why I think the way I do.
?If a practitioner were to use Taan Sau at the wrong space, he would not be in a position for simultaneous attack and defense?
This to me sets up a physical relationship between the taan sau and the opponent. The Taan Sau is part of the material world and its position is very important. If it is not in proper position, then it is useless. If I point my tan sau west when the attack is east, I have violated the space, obviously. However, if I point it 90 degrees and the attack is at 89 degrees, then I too have violated space. A small fraction of a millimeter is crucial. What sets this up? Part of it is the centerline between the opponent and the subject. In order for it to work and be in the correct place, the structure must be there. The body must be united and aligned. It can be in the correct place, but if there is no structure, then it is useless and can be capitalized on. Later parts of the article discusses the dynamic relationship between structure and many other important attributes of wing chun. Most of which I agree with. This is what I meant by space is structure. The article seems to say this, but they also say other things.
?If he used the Taan Sau at the wrong time, his opponent would not be denied the opportunity for challenge?
This seems to suggest timing. I could be wrong, but this is what this is implying. I can block a path by being in the ?proper position?, but if I do so at the wrong time, then I cannot challenge. That is what this is saying. Basically that is suggesting the timing is off and any fighter can understand that. Time is just a instant, a frame if you will. Physic majors will disagree, but I think it works in this model. So if I do something at the wrong time, how is that not timing? I cannot see any other thing it could be. Time is a mark from one instance to another, in the human mind. That interval is timing. No?
?Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun’s emphasis on the physics of three dimensional space and the fourth dimension, time itself.?
LOL. This is sounding pseudo-physics. A lot of Physics majors can talk all day on this subject. I would really be more interested in hearing how HFY related this info prior to the 1900?s. We all are bound by these properties. It doesn?t matter weather or not you state you do or not. It is like gravity. I can say my wing chun places its emphasis on gravity, but it doesn?t change anything. Gravity always existed and always played a role. As does time and space. These are the smoke and mirrors I am speaking of that clouds the issue and convolutes the subject. There is absolutely nothing unique here.
?examinations of space begin with analysis of one’s own body unity for the express purpose of engaging in hand-to-hand combat?
I think this speaks to structure and space that you wanted me to elaborate on. The article goes into more detail about the structure and position between oneself and the opponent. It is really a check in structure as it defines hand, body, and leg structure. Pretty straight forward I think.
?The third stage introduces the fourth dimension of time and involves movement of one’s parts within defined space.?
Movement takes time. Again, timing. I have to act at the correct time, or my timing will be off. I am not sure how this is so confusing. As written, it is a bit convoluted, but it holds true for every fighter in every system world wide.
To me, I see nothing unique to HFY here. I can only see that the subject of time and space refer to the space of the practitioners body and the opponents. This can be described by structure and centerline theory. Time is the instant it is used. Sounds like timing to me.
Here is a practical example
?He [Gee sifu] used the Taan Sau to clearly demonstrate that front hand employment denied the use of simultaneous offense and defense because the back hand was out of range for striking. The time required to bring the back hand within range following front hand engagement was time the opponent could use for reaction. Clearly a time-space consideration was needed.?
The time in question here is clearly related to timing. There is an amount of time it takes the rear hand to be put into action. This is timing. How can it be anything other than that? But I would argue that it is not really a time factor, but a position or space factor as it is positioned incorrectly.
If you don?t want to start a new thread due to the inflammatory remarks, my email is always open at tom@namkuen.net as well as having plenty of time to meet HFY people in the bay area. I am open minded and would love to discuss these things. People used to shout why we don?t spend the time to investigate the art. People are now saying that I am confused and don?t know. Chango challenged us to learn more about the system. As I am unemployed at the moment, I cannot study with Gee sifu. But I am perfectly willing to meet any HFY person willing to educate me in these concepts.
Tom
Tom I agree!
Hello Tom,
When I said that I did not believe that you did not grasp what had been revealed to you. I did not mean that as an insult. I honestly feel that way as I read your post discussing what you interpuret to be HFY. I never said at any point that I don’t understand why you feel the way that you do. I can just tell that you understanding of HFY was not all clear. I wish I lived closer. I would loved to have met with you. Maybe if not in the near future maybe another time? If you ever get a chance to learn some of the Chi sim I think you will be pleasantly suprized as well. I hope you find your answers and find a better view of HFY.
Saat geng sau:cool:
Hi Chango,
I didn’t really take it as an insult. Though I am a little concerned with the comment. I made/make an attempt to learn about it. With out full time study, it is difficult to grasp any subject. I fully admit I don’t know much about HFY other than what is posted and what I was exposed to. So I have to rely on you guys. But there is little clarification, I just hear that I am incorrect. I will spend some time today and read some of these articals in detail and ponder them. To be honest, I have not been able to read them in full withh time to study them. Could you point me to the better articals on HFY that best discribe these principles?
I live near SF. I know many of you guys visit occasionally. The next time you do, I would be more than willing to stop by for an hour or so if you can spare it. Like I said, we have been trying to get many of the local wing chun folks together for meetings. It has been going well. You guys should consider coming. I am sure we could plan around your travel plans.
Well, I am open to any one willing to spend some time with me. Several people have extended this opertunity to those not so eager to look into HFY out in the midweast/east. Well, I am allways availible out in the US.
Tom
I strongly reccomend face to face interaction.
Hello Tom,
At this point I do not have a trip to the bay area planned. However any chance I get I try to visit Sigung and my HFY family members. So I will keep your offer in mind. To be honest I would never point anyone to a written work to guide thier understanding in martial arts. I personally believe that written work should be used as a prompt or a method of mapping out studies but never as the primary source of info. Of course I’m a very “hands on” type of person and find it almost impossible to learn martial arts in any other way. So having said this I will say that if you ever get a chance to go see Sigung Gee again do so. However I will keep your offer in mind the next time I’m in the bay area.
Chango (saat geng sau) 
Saat Geng Sau wrote:
I personally believe that written work should be used as a prompt or a method of mapping out studies but never as the primary source of info. Of course I’m a very “hands on” type of person and find it almost impossible to learn martial arts in any other way.
Hi Saat,
I agree.
“hands on” give yourself to the journey.
Know this. Seek wisdom, and purity.
Brother Saat Geng Sau,
See ya on the top of WCK mountain.
Later…hahaha!
Roger
Hi Guys,
Chango, Thanks for the offer. I will take you up on it. LOL. I try to be criticl of all martial arts and not just HFY. I think I have been fair, honest, and open with you guys. Foot in the mouth, yes. My intentions are not to discredit any lineage as I hope you understand. But I have questions. And I applaud you guys that offer to help us realize your system.
I didn’t want to “study” HFY through online documents. I want a little background so to maximize any other hands on I may have. I will poke around and see what I come up with. Hands on can be better, but written stuff can be valuable.
Roger,
Why is Chan written down?
Tom
Roger,
Why is Chan written down?
Tom
Hi Tom,
The Ch’an that can be written down is not the true Ch’an.
If you want to read about No.2 Ch’an,
Hendrik has a copy for you!
Roger
about Xilu
From the web sites that I have looked at, Chinese historians do not value the book of “Xilu legend” highly at all. The places such as Po Leong, Poon Leong, Fuk Ten, and Po Ten counties described in the book could not be found any where in FuJien province. It is believed that the Tin Dei society needed to invent more idols to help boost the society’s self serving superiority image. Some Chinese scholars suspect that Xilu was a fictious story based on an episode in Tong Dynasty in which a warrior monk helped the Emperior defeat Wong Zee Chong. Later versions of Xilu have more complex story lines, more characters, and many inconsistencies among versions were found. In the earliest version by Yiu, there is no mention of the fire in Shaolin, however the fire story appears in Shau’s version which was published later, just to throw an example. Also, there are no official records of “Shaolin-on-fire” in Qing dynasty.
Don’t know if you guys can read Chinese or not, here are two of sites that I’ve gone through.
http://www.hkwstc.com.hk/tamkoo.htm
http://www.geocities.com/quan_fa/shaolin.html
There is also a mainland Chinese official web site on Shaolin (but I forgot the URL), they are currently working on an English mirror version, so there shall be more to come that will clarify Shaolin history.
Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
[B]Roger,
Why is Chan written down?
Tom
Hi Tom,
The Ch’an that can be written down is not the true Ch’an.
If you want to read about No.2 Ch’an,
Hendrik has a copy for you!
Roger [/B]
Hi Tom,
Damo has to use Laka sutra to certify his decendent for mind seal.
Fifth patriach has to use Diamond Sutra to certify his decendent for mind seal.
Now, Rolling hand, the mighty of all Chan, claiming something EVEN the CHAN Patriach will not practice.
Rolling Hand,
so who is your Chan teacher who Transmittes the Mind Seal to You? what is your Chan legacy? Which Sutra was used as Certification?
IT is time for you to answer quetions don’t you? and by the way, Clock is ticking. EVery second passing mark that you agree with me on the Shao Lin His-story. See, I am wrong. But where is your evident to support I am wrong?
By the way, I have also waiting for you to translate this about your Shao Lin for weeks now.
http://www.geocities.com/quan_fa/shaolin.html
Since your english is great and much much better then me. Why don’t you translate this for us. and it will help the VTM researchers to know what the real Chinese historians research.
<<Damo has to use Laka sutra to certify his decendent for mind seal.
Fifth patriach has to use Diamond Sutra to certify his decendent for mind seal.>>Hendrik
**Is that something new for you to tell the world about it? If not, I prefer listen to Karen Carparter’s songs than Hendrik’s I-tell-you-so.
<<Now, Rolling hand, the mighty of all Chan, claiming something EVEN the CHAN Patriach will not practice.>>Hendrik
**Now, what are you saying? Hendrik, Please don’t put your words in my mouth, and don’t speak for Ch’an either. If you are a true Ch’an practioner, you begin to see stop talking about Charlie Chan is the only way to help you see how you can create basic goodness for yourself and others on the spot.
<<Rolling Hand,
so who is your Chan teacher who Transmittes the Mind Seal to You? what is your Chan legacy? Which Sutra was used as Certification?>>Hendrik
**Those who know do not speak; those who speak do not know. If you want to discuss Chan with RH, the first thing you need to do is to go to see Guru Chogyam in Tibet, and let’s see if you’re qualifty to speak about Ch’an.
<<IT is time for you to answer quetions don’t you? and by the way, Clock is ticking. EVery second passing mark that you agree with me on the Shao Lin His-story. See, I am wrong. But where is your evident to support I am wrong?>>Hendrik
**It’s time for you to look a little deeper about your own lineage, why is Yik Kam’s Kung Fu the same as Shaolin Bok Hok Kuen? Don’t you think there’s a connection there? Regardless Yik Kam’s White Crane is from Emie or Shaolin Bok Hok Kuen, the fact is fact; WCK is WCK, White Crane is White Crane, do you get it? Dr Yang Jing-Ming also has a book about White Crane Kung-Fu, many pictures on his book and Yik Kam’s Kung-Fu are almost the same! I think that’s the DNA you’ve been looking for, isn’t it?
<<By the way, I have also waiting for you to translate this about your Shao Lin for weeks now.
http://www.geocities.com/quan_fa/shaolin.html
Since your english is great and much much better then me. Why don’t you translate this for us. and it will help the VTM researchers to know what the real Chinese historians research.>>Hendrik
**First, why do you feel the need to attack the VTM and the Gee Sim family? Second, these gossips about Gee Sim from this link are nothing but a whole bunch of BBBsss. If you want to know the real history of Gee Sim, you should speak to Grandmaster Andreas Hoffmann or Benny Meng. They are the real experts on Gee Sim history. Unlike you, they don’t look up the internet to find some third hand info and call it as a fact, they’re THERE in person, doing research for the whole MA world, not just for your Yik Kam family. I was from Fatshan, I had heard all of these stories before, but I don’t like to spread all these gossips and rumors like you and your friends did in the past, because I know they’re just hear and say type of stories, nothing is there. IMO, the VTM is doing the right thing to go directly to the sources of information…Hoffmann, William Cheung, Yip Ching, May Yat, Garrett Cee…Hong Kong, China, everywhere to do their jobs.
First, why do you feel the need to attack the VTM and the Gee Sim family?
Roger
Gee, the pot calling the kettle black! Lets see what was written a couple paragraphs earlier
It’s time for you to look a little deeper about your own lineage, why is Yik Kam’s Kung Fu the same as Shaolin Bok Hok Kuen?
Tom