Weng Chun & Ng Jo

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

This is to respond to something interesting Bynd1 raised. WRT Weng Chun & Ng Jo. There is a school of thought that Weng Chun actually derived from Fujian Weng Chun Bak Hok Kuen (Fujian Perpetual Spring (County) White Crane Boxing) that was brought into Guangdong and onto the Red Junks during the Qing dynasty migrations (see assorted published historical accounts).

For example, the famed Lee Man-Mao, who was head of the Opera Union during the Taiping, was a White Crane boxer, so we know with reasonable certainty that there was Fujian White Crane on the junks at the time. It is also believe that the original Fujian White Crane did not consist of most of the boxing routines (sequenced techniques) as it does now, but mostly short forms and San Sik expressed from the core principles. This may well have led to the version of Weng Chun practiced on the Red Junks by our Wing Chun ancestors.

As for Ng Jo (Wuzu/Ngor Cho), one of the “five ancestral fists” that founded Ng Jo was Fujian White Crane, which means it shares, in part, the same “DNA” (core conceptual movements), leading to the similarities some may see. (Even in arts partiall derived from Bak Hok on Ng Jo, like Okinawan Kenpo)

RR

2

ahhhh finally…someone wants to talk…o.k i will organize my info on weng chun white crane and post a basic compasison of ging and principle, from my limited knowledge, of white crane and wing chun…tomorow
ng jo’s first form teachs 4 basic gings or skills…the same skills (except the tun) are found the the weng chun kuen form, …double low palmstrikes…sinking of the wrist joint…double biu tze( in ng jo it is done very low…in weng chun it is done higher)…the weng chun(from my understanding) uses the stance(via legs) for the energy…the ng jo though also uses yiu lik…(which of cource weng chun trains yiu(waist)…just not at that part of that particular form)…
interesting thing about how weng chun white crane (named after the province)generates its ging…there is the method with the legs..gerk faat…method with the waist (which still of cource uses the rooted legs as a base but doesnot add anything with the feet or legs)…method with both waist and legs (good wc can and should use the 3.)..as well as useing bowing of the chest and back (which can be incorporated with other methods)—oh sow hung where have you been my whole life?..there are hard ging, soft ging. and soft/hard ging styles…white crane is one of the few styles in the world that actually use soft/hard…very few styles use this…usually either hard ging with local chi support is used or soft ging with no muscle, all tendon with dan tian supported chi…or cource wing chun uses the soft/hard ging…which means we are part of a very small gang..lol…
more tomorow…
how simular is cho family wck to chi sim weng chun? what is the cho family slt like? is it anything like fung siu chings saam pai fut?
brian

3

Originally posted by byond1

how simular is cho family wck to chi sim weng chun? what is the cho family slt like? is it anything like fung siu chings saam pai fut?
brian

Nope. Yik Kam WCK is far different with Chi Sim Weng Chun as I know from Sifu Andreas.

The Yik Kam SLT of Cho family is a combination of White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang’s DNA. Nothing Similar at all with Saam Pai Fut.
Yik Kam SLT cannot be White CRane’s San Chin or HAk KA’s boxing. Yik Kam kuen kuit recorded what is the DNA of this set.

In addition, Yik KAm is an actor playing Proper woman role. So, jing is culivate with Soft … definate not those Shao Lin or Hard type of Jing.

If You want to know more about Yik Kam’s Jing method…
Read " this one’s for you" in the WWW. Wingchunkuen.com.. you might be able to see something.

Hendrik

4

Brian,

Thank you for being part of serious, respectful discussion. Hopefully we can serve as good examples.

Rise/Sink, Spit/Swallow (Fao/Chum, Tao/Tun) are the basic San Fa (Body Method) of many Southern fist systems, and are found either explicitly or implicitly named in Sum Nung and Pao Fa Lien WCK, and probably in others as well.

As to the Cho Siu Lien Tao, it looks more like Foshan WCK to me than to Weng Chun Kuen or other southern fist.

Hendrik,

Was I right in saying previously that you believe Siu Lien Tao was developed by merging Emei 12 Posts with White Crane core movements?

RR

5

Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]

Hendrik,

Was I right in saying previously that you believe Siu Lien Tao was developed by merging Emei 12 Posts with White Crane core movements?

RR [/B]

That is correct. One thing I want to add is that white Crane has core which is not just movement but the essense of White Crane. That too was implant within the Siu Lien Tau.

Hendrik

6

Chi Sim Weng Chun´s Weng Chun Sap Yat Kuen is simmilar to Yik Kam´s Siu Lim Tau.

Saam Pai Fat is different.

Saam Pai Faat is not common for all Chi Sim Weng Chun families. It is a special set from the Lo family and concentrates on the multideminional idea.

According our family tradition Saam Pai Faat is a special set from Dai Fa Min Kam.

Greetings from Germany

Andreas Hoffmann

7

Hi Andreas,

Thank you! That’s very interesting. In what way do you mean it’s similar? That is follows the same pattern of choreography, or that the core movements and methods are done in a similar way, or both?

Do you know which set (SPF or SYK) was the foundation set of Fung Siu-Ching?

Thanks again, and best wishes,

RR

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Andreas Hoffman wrote:

According our family tradition . . . . AH

Exactly! You set a great example. TN

Terence

9

QUOTE]Originally posted by Andreas Hoffman
[B]Chi Sim Weng Chun Weng Chun Sap Yat Kuen is simmilar to Yik Kam Siu Lim Tau.

Andreas Hoffmann [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Andreas,

Happy New year!

I understand you might post your claim based on some oral speculation which you might not looking into and verify in details… as many of us do.

Thus, you don’t have to answer this post.

However, if you are serious about it.

Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.

Things need to be specific and cannot be general. So, they
needs to be Based on evidents, facts, details… in very specific.

Best Regards
Hendrik

[B]

“Chi Sim Weng Chun Weng Chun Sap Yat Kuen is simmilar to Yik Kam Siu Lim Tau.” - AH

For your claim to be valid,

You need to provide explaination and comparison in the following basic issues to justify your claim.

0, Naming:

why the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tau set is called Siu Lien Tau not " ending with Kuen"?

1, Body and application of the system:

the Tee Yong or body and application of Yik kam’s Siu Lien Tau.
and how is this link to the four wisdom of Tatagatha and buddha nature.

2, Uniqueness in cultivation of style:

How many unique cultivation keys for the YKSLT set and how many stage or progress of achivements interm of body, Qi, Shen while practicing the set or Sin Fa and Cheh Dee in Madarin?

3, Arrangement of Contents:

the Emei 12 zhuang and White Crane connection, where are they located in the YKSLT set? and why it arrange this way?

4, Uniqueness in method:

The principle of Yik Kam SLT set and its arrangement and uniqueness which makes it no longer White Crane or Emei 12 zhuang?

5, Specific Detail implementations and significant:

The kuen kuit of Yik Kam Siu Lien Tau in detail and specific utilization of 12 medirians…and intention focusing… and the significant in health according to TCM in specifics details?

6, Transmition code:

Hung mun code in 1850 about the transmittion of this Yik Kam set in the red boat era.

7, The identity of Creator and thier back ground:

this set according to Yik Kam’s record is design by Miu Soon. who create this set based on his own internal art and White Crane. Miu Soon eventhough we in Yik Kam lineage do not know that migh be a real name or not. we in Yik Kam lineage had found the type of martial art Miu Soon did with evidents from other system of Chinese martial art.

How is this relate to Chi Sim of Weng Chun with proof of specific evidence? what art in specific Chi Sim practiced? What chinese dialec language he used at his time?

and how is this link with the EVERGREEN HALL of Shao LIn which is not identified yet . Where we in Yik Kam lineage know with evident that SLT link with the Buddhist Temple on the Goldern Summit of Emei mount and can be located today.

Since Benny and his student of VTM make claim in public that HFY and Chi Sim are the oldest. Which is the olderst compare with everyone’s Wing Chun Kuen. I presume you agree with Benny Meng.
I certainy would love to also understand what evident in details of that public claim of Benny Meng which you might have agree on.

[/B]

10

Hello Rene and Hendrik,

All families in Chi Sim Weng Chun are sharing Weng Chun Sap Yat Kuen and Weng Chun Chong Kuen. Fa Kuen is special from GM Chu Chung Man and Saam Pai Fat special from Lo family.

Hendrik, peace !

I like only share chi sim weng chun according my family from ancestor Fung Siu Ching and I appreciate your research and the research from the Ving Tsun Museum.

My wish is you would be working together.

Andreas Hoffmann

11

Andreas is an excellent example. Andreas and Hendrik have met, and hopefully will again one day. I think they are two of the keys in our generation to developing a working model of where WCK came from.

Here’s one example of such a model I think we can begin with, if anyone is interested:

Weng Chun Kuen from Fujian came to the Red Junk, including the 11 Fists, the 6.5 pole, and the Wooden Dummy. This was learned by Wong, Leung, Kam, et. al.

Siu Lien Tao came to the Red Junk, either whole as it descended later, or as raw methodology (perhaps from Emei as Hendrik’s research suggests) and was learned by said Red Junk performers.

The knives of the Shanghai Small Knife Society came to said Red Junk performers, as did the similar sounding Wing Chun Kuen name, as described in Hendrik’s article on the two triad brothers and the Red Turban rebellion.

Said performers combined their knowledge of Weng Chun Kuen, Pole, and Dummy with Siu Lien Tao, used the methods with the double knives, and the latter art as a whole became known as Wing Chun Kuen (Recite Play (Opera Actor) Fist).

When the Hung Gan failed and the actors fled, some like Kam taught the original Weng Chun Kuen, and some like Wong and Leung taught the Wing Chun Kuen.

I believe while this may not be the origin of WCK, it is a workable one given the oral traditions of many families, as well as the histories of both the Red Junk, and the rebellions. I would welcome discussion of it, at least as a place to start.

RR

12

Rene,

Good idea.

However, I would like to suggest that all the sets disregard from who or which family. I would not take it in a face value. Without knowing who is the mother of the set… Conclusion cannot be drawn.

White Crane DNA and Shao Lin DNA are different DNA… for example, 6.5 pole is not a unique name. Other system also has 6.5pole. And people always made up sets… It happen every where.

As for the Pre-Red boat issues,
A fun question for you is that why in the world that Yik Kam’s SLT writing was written with Fujianese… Why is the 4 key core of Yik Kam SLT was written in Fujianess… while he was an actor working in Red boat opera where it is in Canton…

what is the possibility of the cantonese Red boat artists create the SLT’s core in Red boat; and then
the Cantonese so kind to allow thier creation in Red boat written in Fujianese? May be in this way they can learn a second language while learning SLT? ha ha ha ( I guess the Cantonese needs to take TOFEL when they want to learn SLT :smiley: )
So what does Dai Fa Min Kaam speak? ha ha ha
How about Tan Sau Ng? He speak mandarin? HuBei diarect? why this pice of writing was written in Fujian? Ha ha ha let you do some more reseach while I am taking a rest. :smiley:

the name of the monks from Emei lineage… the language of the Yik Kam kuits… there are lots of signatures… the code of Hung Mun… Ancestors seldom lies :wink: Ha ha ha Ancestors always send me some presents to share…

13

Originally posted by Andreas Hoffman
[B]

I like only share chi sim weng chun according my family from ancestor Fung Siu Ching and I appreciate your research and the research from the Ving Tsun Museum.

My wish is you would be working together.

Andreas Hoffmann [/B]

Hi Andreas,

As you know, since we meet in LA with Robert, Benny.
I have no problem working with anyone. As soon as there is integrity, honesty, mutual respect.
To be real honest, i didn’t do research. I am just a messenger.

As for the Yik Kam’s legacy, for past hundred of years, No one should bent the rule, but go by book that is the teaching to all indoor student of Cho family. That is also the reason why Cho family can preserve the Yik Kam SLT in very details.

Your friend from Germany has contact me about his project. I told him, Qi Gong is a modern term. In the era of creating SLT, the term used is not Qi Gong and classified differently.

In addition, Shao Lin art related to Chan was made popular after 1914, if I am not wrong, when a shao lin book title Shao Lin… was publised. Before that era… there is a different story. Thus, alots of people making up WCK history trap themselve in these details signatures… (Sigh)

Hendrik

14

A few points if you will! (workable history)

Hello Hindrik, Rene

Hendrik- what about Chum kiu and biu jee etc… please help connect the dots here. It seems that the Cho info seems to never go beyond this! Why or should we say why not? does the connection stop there? what is in the place of this information if it is not a part of Cho style WCK?

Hendrik wrote: Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.

Things need to be specific and cannot be general. So, they
needs to be Based on evidents, facts, details… in very specific.

–I mean this with all due respect Hendrik your claims all come from the written word or a book. Kung fu can not be taught from a book! You have to see how this could show disrespect to what is being shared and passed down from fung Siu Ching. I know you could not have meant it that way but I think you should be mindful of this.

Hendrik wrote: White Crane DNA and Shao Lin DNA are different DNA… for example, 6.5 pole is not a unique name. Other system also has 6.5pole. And people always made up sets… It happen every where.

—please discuss more on the difference’s of Shaolin DNA and White crane. Please tell us what your shaolin references are and is there only one White crane system? if not which one? When you say 6.5 what do you mean? I have heard many different explinations for 6.5 points or just 6.5

Hendrik wrote:As for the Yik Kam’s legacy, for past hundred of years, No one should bent the rule, but go by book that is the teaching to all indoor student of Cho family. That is also the reason why Cho family can preserve the Yik Kam SLT in very details.

– I find this interesting that you mention nothing about Chum kiu and biu jee! From what I have seen in most of the WCK information SLT cannot stand alone! This would be leaving out a great deal of information! From what I have gathered skill/system would be incomplete with out the other forms. Please explain.

Rene wrote: I believe while this may not be the origin of WCK, it is a workable one given the oral traditions of many families, as well as the histories of both the Red Junk, and the rebellions. I would welcome discussion of it, at least as a place to start.

RR

---- “Workable” indeed however if we do more working and in light of not having Chum kiu and biu jee etc… logic would make me more inclined to believe that Cho and not WCK as a whole would be a mix of Wing chun, White crane,and possibly Emei! This would explain why only SLT or eveb SLT understanding through these influences or even a direct mix of all of this information. this also would be very much workable considering the logic flow.

Hendrik wrote:Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.

Things need to be specific and cannot be general. So, they
needs to be Based on evidents, facts, details… in very specific.

—This is nothing personal indeed Hendrik. I did not know you are the “succesor” of a system? Do you have the ability to express your complete system? I know for a fact Sifu Hoffman has great skills physically and orally expressing his system. Is this the case with you? If not will you be able to live up to being a succesor? I mean passing down the system in it’s complete form? Who bistowed this honor upon you and who witnessed it? So in order to make such demands on information being shared. Maybe we should consider the responsibilities envolved with such a position!It would not be your job to take care of other lineages background just your own. So please let’s keep that in mind when addressing some list members and Sifu’s.

I really enjoy constructive conversion as well!!!
Chango

15

Chango - I think you are misunderstanding something about Hendricks WC. His SLT is a long form with 4 sections as I understand it sections 2 and 3 conform to chum kui and bil jee. When he writes SLT chum kui and bil jee ,from a 3 form point of view, are included. For what it is worth I have seen WC from a non- Cho line also only have 1 long 4 section form that breaks down into slt,chum kiu and bil jee. This family also has a written history that details the form and its break up into 4 seperate forms. One long form does have a certain logic to it. Many of wing chuns contemporary arts like SPM , Bak Mei, etc also only had 1 form at creation.

16

Some thoughts FWIW on the more interesting aspects of the discussions
of the “roots” of wing chun.

  1. History is not always, or even usually “linear”- dialectical not necessarily materialistic zig zags (encounters with other things) and even cycles( including revisionism) emerge.

  2. If we dont use history to legitimize whatever we are doing-
    one of the problematic questions is- what is this a history of?
    What are the key definite features of the entity that we are trying to trace? Partly implicit in Hunt 1’s posts. A Martian reading our posts could legitimately assume that anything is wing chun.

  3. Unless history is instructive on something that might improve or inform our current wing chun-explain the dna analogy specifically- shouldnt we just treat history as an interesting story or stories?

  4. BTW FWIW I have always treated all 3 hand forms as basically one for experienced folks- different chapters of the main text.
    Often in serious subjects- its the first chapter that holds the key- you cant enter other areas until you master chapter 1- one will always wobble your way through if you skip chapter 1 to get
    fast to the 3rd.

  5. Weapons in WC are extensions of the hand and historically for use- not just for exercise- close quarters do- though there are eceptional long entry uses- and kwan work on boats and docks or elsewhere
    for greater distances- though it has short uses as well. Understanding wc weapons motions imparts a wc character to using many other weapons and things in your hand-
    off the box- cheers - till next week. Off on a wc trip.

joy chaudhuri

Joy

17

Originally posted by hunt1
Chango - I think you are misunderstanding something about Hendricks WC…

Hi, Hunt1,

You are right about the SLT from Yik Kam.
Hope that some of your question also clear up.

As for Chango, my suggestion is Chango needs go back and review the materials in details including the history events before jump into conclusion or making suggestion.

I like to thanks for Chango’s opinions.
However, I would like to advise Chango to go back to ask for advise and approval from Garret Gee or the Gate Keeper of Hung Fa Yee before posting or sticking himself into Andreas family and my family business.

As Chango’s own advise------- It would not be your job to take care of other lineages background just your own. So please let’s keep that in mind when addressing some list members and Sifu’s.
He needs to walk his talk right?

Finally, I would also like to suggest that , instead of Chango wasting his valuable time on things he has little idea with. why don’t Chango response to David Williams request on:

"Can someone from the VTM staff start disclosing the actual research information behind the conclusions regarding pre-red boat activity?

Can they start walking us through the 5 stages of their methodology regarding their findings?"

Let’s keep simple within technical.

18

Hi JOy,

Good ideas. -HS

  1. Unless history is instructive on something that might improve or inform our current wing chun-explain the dna analogy specifically- shouldnt we just treat history as an interesting story or stories?

Yup. agree. HS

  1. BTW FWIW I have always treated all 3 hand forms as basically one for experienced folks- different chapters of the main text.
    Often in serious subjects- its the first chapter that holds the key- you cant enter other areas until you master chapter 1- one will always wobble your way through if you skip chapter 1 to get
    fast to the 3rd. -j

Agree.

Say taking Calculus class in university. Some school doing it with 2 semesters. some doing it with 3 quaters. The important part is the content. doesn’t matter it is 2 semesters or 3 quaters.

and Certainly, if one doesn’t have basic differentiation how the world one is going to do partial differential? Foundation is very important.

ON the other hand, Geometry class is not Trig class. So, one cannot said Geometry is Trig. and claim they are the same.
But all components of Trig are the same disregard of call it Ip Trig or YK Trig. or YKS Trig or … Trig class is trig. disregard of 1 year or 2 semesters or 3 quaters. -HS

  1. Weapons in WC are extensions of the hand and historically for use- not just for exercise- close quarters do- though there are eceptional long entry uses- and kwan work on boats and docks or elsewhere
    for greater distances- though it has short uses as well. Understanding wc weapons motions imparts a wc character to using many other weapons and things in your hand-
    off the box- cheers - till next week. Off on a wc trip. -J

There are different 6.5 poles set or even points spread across WCK family. Not to mention style like Chu Gar… also has 6.5 poles… this is not an easy subject. IMHO -HS

Hi guys, I would like to end this discussion for now until my server got fixed.

19

Chango - Thank your for participating. You may want to do some background on Siu Lien Tao to get the most out of the discussion (you can probably find much of it archived under previous responses to questions you’d asked). I do appreciate and agree with your call for specifics, however, and thus look forward to you sharing all the specifics behind your own theory in great detail. Perhaps the rest of us can then use that as an example (since we don’t ask of others what we ourselves are unwilling to do, of course)

Hendrik - Interesting stuff but to be truly beneficial I think we have to first get some sort of order together and then progress through it step by step. Question: why would information on Sichuan Emei Shierzhuang be written in Fujian style? Do you think it was so early a development that a recent Fujian immigrant to Guangdong (or elsewhere) learned it before they become settled into Guangdong style?

Hunt1 - Very interesting! I find it particularly interesting if YKS lineage (and perhaps Yip Man) preserved 3 sets and the core San Sik, and Cho & the lineage you mention, preserve one linked set of 4 including the 3 sets and the core San Sik cycles.

Joy - Very good points well worth remembering!

20

Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]

Hendrik - Interesting stuff but to be truly beneficial I think we have to first get some sort of order together and then progress through it step by step. Question: why would information on Sichuan Emei Shierzhuang be written in Fujian style? Do you think it was so early a development that a recent Fujian immigrant to Guangdong (or elsewhere) learned it before they become settled into Guangdong style?

[/B]

Hey Rene,

are you suggesting I call up Hsu Chi and ask her about the Fujian immigrant to Guangdong and her daughter?
Since I know HSu Chi is also Fujianese.:smiley:

Don’t know what is Hsu Chi’s last name. Yen? may be?:cool: