[QUOTE=TenTigers;893176]
a good dozen Tai-Chi schools
[/QUOTE]
A dozen?
Come on now. And some of those names are certainly bigger then their abilities.
[QUOTE=Andy Miles;893208]Strongest trees take time to grow. Time to put down roots, time to harden. …
www.Imperialtao.com[/QUOTE]
Sir, with no disrespect, this is exactly the mentality that has killed Kung Fu. And I know you, like the other sifus, mean well. You have the good stuff. Better than everybody else. It’s just the **** silly American students.
Truth is, you can learn the mechanics and application of a double-leg takedown in 20 minutes. It’s very simple: change levels, drop your weight onto your forward knee, ride the momentum up with the back leg for positioning, leverage and base, karate chop the back of the knees and dump the guy. You drill it to you drop.
I was exposed to the double leg for the first time in May. I have a kick ass double-leg now.
Same with stand up: Check the lead jab, close and cover for the hook… one, two, three.
Of course one needs proper weight distribution and balancing at all times. So does a soccer player, or baseball player. No one starts talking all crazy about deep roots and the required time it takes for a tree to reach maturity. We are not trees. We are human beings with big brains and flexible bodies.
That’s the problem with Kung Fu. Making mountains out of moll hills. You don’t need yoga meditation to conjure up some fantastic training method. I’ll give it to you for free, right here and now: Boxing gloves and head gear.
If that’s too intimidating for students to drill with, hand them an inflatable bouncing ball to play with and send them on their way. Martial arts is not for them.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;893231]That’s the problem with Kung Fu. Making mountains out of moll hills. You don’t need yoga meditation to conjure up some fantastic training method. I’ll give it to you for free, right here and now: Boxing gloves and head gear. [/QUOTE]
I agree 100%. I probably would have stayed in kung fu if I had been taught the basics and then got to drill then on a resisting partner over and over. No fancy stuff, just good footwork and good striking. Why is it so hard to find this in CMA?
[QUOTE=naja;893239]I agree 100%. I probably would have stayed in kung fu if I had been taught the basics and then got to drill then on a resisting partner over and over. No fancy stuff, just good footwork and good striking. Why is it so hard to find this in CMA?[/QUOTE]
I think the issue can be one of student retention, some may think that if they hold back stuff you will stick around longer.
In some cases it may be as simple as thinking that the “old way” is best, old way being slow steady progress because, let’s face it, you aren’t going anywhere and MA is a lifetime pursuit.
It can also be the some teachers forget that they should focus on making someone a fighter FIRST and a MA second.
There is NO REASON why anyone training in a fighting system can’t use it to protect themselves sooner rather than later.
Truly it is the responsibility, the duty, of a teacher/coach to make someone that decides to take a MA for the sake of self protection, a effective fighter.
What are you gonna do is some tries to beat you up after 3 months of MA training, say come back in 3 years?
No.
It is a teachers responsiblity to teach a student to fight in the short time possible, to make them an effective fighter sooner rather than later.
THEN, you can mold them in to a martial artist, not the other way around.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;893240]
It can also be the some teachers forget that they should focus on making someone a fighter FIRST and a MA second.
There is NO REASON why anyone training in a fighting system can’t use it to protect themselves sooner rather than later.
Truly it is the responsibility, the duty, of a teacher/coach to make someone that decides to take a MA for the sake of self protection, a effective fighter.
What are you gonna do is some tries to beat you up after 3 months of MA training, say come back in 3 years?
No.
It is a teachers responsiblity to teach a student to fight in the short time possible, to make them an effective fighter sooner rather than later.
THEN, you can mold them in to a martial artist, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]
Yea, I agree. And I would think this would be common sense if you’re a teacher, but I guess not. I mentioned my desire to get in more sparring, and sparring that included actually putting on the gloves and making contact, about 5 months before I quit. I was at his school for a total of 14 months, so I don’t think I was out of line asking for this after being there for 9 months. But the teacher gave me the old “I don’t let me students brawl” speech and I new then that I wasn’t going to get what I now wanted out of his classes.
And here’s something else. While forms are great for conditioning, no one is going to get any degree of fighting instruction from them if they haven’t been taught how to fight before hand. Yea, some people are naturals, but I’d bet 90 who come through the doors aren’t. I quit KF mainly for financial reasons, but what ultimately pushed me into the decision was hearing that once I got my next test out of the way, I would have 15 more long forms to learn before making it to black. 15!!! I was getting ready to test for third brown. That means an average of 5 long forms for each of the next 3 belts.
And I probably won’t go back to a CMA in the future for striking. I’ll go JMA more than likely, or possibly boxing.
[QUOTE=naja;893243]Yea, I agree. And I would think this would be common sense if you’re a teacher, but I guess not. I mentioned my desire to get in more sparring, and sparring that included actually putting on the gloves and making contact, about 5 months before I quit. I was at his school for a total of 14 months, so I don’t think I was out of line asking for this after being there for 10 months. But the teacher gave me the old “I don’t let me students brawl” speech and I new then that I wasn’t going to get what I now wanted out of his classes.
And here’s something else. While forms are great for conditioning, no one is going to get any degree of fighting instruction from them if they haven’t been taught how to fight before hand. Yea, some people are naturals, but I’d bet 90% who come through the doors aren’t. I quit KF mainly for financial reasons, but what ultimately pushed me into the decision was hearing that once I got my next test out of the way, I would have 15 more long forms to learn before making it to black. 15!!! I was getting ready to test for third brown. That means an average of 5 long forms for each of the next 3 belts.
And I probably won’t go back to a CMA in the future for striking. I’ll go JMA more than likely, or possibly boxing.[/QUOTE]
You know, you can never judge a system based on one school, but I feel your pain.
I know of one kung fu school in Toronto that all they do is forms and “sparring sets”, but if you can “qualify” for their “closed door” classes, all they do is sparring and conditioning.
The teacher is retired now, so I don’t know what is going on there now, but I visit him 1-2 month to get “refreshers” on my HK and some “other stuff” and he is still a relentless task master.
I asked him once, months ago, why the difference between the way he taught and he flat out said that the vast majority was there to “do kung fu and not to fight” so why waste his time.
Perhaps some of the blame must fall on the students too…
The reason it is the way it is: lack of skill, fear and money… not necessarily in that order.
The teacher doesn’t own this skills he’s showing. He knows the moves, he knows how they work, but he isn’t good enough to pull them off against a kick boxer…
In turn, he’s fearful to promote an open training environment to avoid a scenario where he can be put to the test by students or outsiders.
These types of schools are not the exception in CMA, but the rule. And they attract people who want to get close to the subject but not so close as to get punched in the nose.
Everyone’s happy.
Truth is, at a real martial arts school, you’re mixing it up from day one. This doesn’t mean going crazy beating the hell out of each other. It means, grabbing onto someone’s gi and see who’s left standing. It means pairing up with a partner and working jamming techniques at about 50% power. And if you get tagged, there’s your free bonus lesson.
I have punched my new coach in the face sparring in the ring, I’ve kicked him. Stand up, I think I can take him. I’m bigger. I prefer my technique.
On the ground, I can’t touch him. I’ve never tapped him.
He’s by far the best coach I ever had. He sweats with us. He exhausts himself with us. He competes with us and with others. This is traditional martial arts. One school united in improving, together and individually. We’re all here for each other. Thank God I found this place.
BJJ is an amazing and complex system, it happens on the ground. The positioning it much easier than stances, you can simply lay down. To do what they do on the ground from a standing position takes having a stance that is immovable and an equal understanding of positioning from the stance. That is harder to develop.
Uhhhhhh, NO.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;893244]I asked him once, months ago, why the difference between the way he taught and he flat out said that the vast majority was there to “do kung fu and not to fight” so why waste his time.
Perhaps some of the blame must fall on the students too…[/QUOTE]
Yea, I’m sure it does fall some on the students but when you have one that wants to fight… geez, I dunno. Maybe the “brawler” speech was just to get me to go somewhere else. I know that most of his students would fall into the “do kung fu” group.
[QUOTE=Merryprankster;893246]Uhhhhhh, NO.[/QUOTE]
You beat me to that reply… Sounds like someone has never done real groundwork before.
Maybe Andy should go to a local Judo club and volunteer for some newaza!! :eek:
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;893228]A dozen?
Come on now. And some of those names are certainly bigger then their abilities.[/QUOTE]
no surprise to those that have been around the block. Truth be told, most of the Emperors had no clothes.
I definately believe that many Gung-Fu styles can be broken down into basic drills and sparring and give a beginner student enough of a handle on things that they can fight with it. Kicks, punches, footwork, movement, takedowns, and grappling.
After that, if the student wants something more out of their training, you can offer it.
It doesn’t seem like an insurmountable problem.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;893254]I definately believe that many Gung-Fu styles can be broken down into basic drills and sparring and give a beginner student enough of a handle on things that they can fight with it. Kicks, punches, footwork, movement, takedowns, and grappling.
After that, if the student wants something more out of their training, you can offer it.
It doesn’t seem like an insurmountable problem.[/QUOTE]
No, it doesn’t, which makes you wonder why it isn’t done more.
Not for everyone, since TMA do tend to attract those that don’t want to fight, but for those that do, why not?
On top of that I feel that a teacher has the responsibility to ask why a student is there and IF the student says they are there to learn how to protect themselves, then they should be made aware of what that entails.
If they don’t like it, then they will at least be conscious that, the pussified version of kung fu they will be learning is just that, pussified.
Coach Ross seems to have things pretty worked out. He trains everyone in the same techniques, and the ones that want to go into competition, train and condition harder, with emphasis in that direction. Sounds like a pretty simple formula. Everybody gets what they want.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;893225]There is a cult mentality in all MA, that is a given.
We all agree that the lack of functional fighting skills is the “disease” currently eating away at TMA, and most will agree that it has very little to do with the systems themselves but what a handful of so-called “masters” have perverted said systems into being.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but it’s not just the cult mentality but what kind of cult mentality that’s manifest, and it really does have to do with the systems themselves as in many cases the traditions, good and bad, are part of the system and help give it identity.
[QUOTE=MightyB;893142]I’d say “buyer beware”. I don’t hate on the traditional- I do agree with what you guys are saying mostly 'cuz there’s a lot of crap out there. But- crap isn’t constrained to just “tma” anymore. The commercial success of BJJ and the UFC has led to the creation of a lot of crappy fake mcdojo MMA gyms.
Sucks doesn’t it…[/QUOTE]
This is true. I saw an advert for a “MMA” dojo in St. Thomas recently that had pretty much all the hallmarks of mcdojoism.
[QUOTE=uki;893168]one mans trash is another mans treasure.[/QUOTE]
At least I don’t go advising people to do things like go out into the bush to pick their own herbal medicine. Idiocy of that caliber can get somebody dead!
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;893231]Of course one needs proper weight distribution and balancing at all times. So does a soccer player, or baseball player. No one starts talking all crazy about deep roots and the required time it takes for a tree to reach maturity. We are not trees. We are human beings with big brains and flexible bodies.
That’s the problem with Kung Fu. Making mountains out of moll hills. You don’t need yoga meditation to conjure up some fantastic training method. I’ll give it to you for free, right here and now: Boxing gloves and head gear.
If that’s too intimidating for students to drill with, hand them an inflatable bouncing ball to play with and send them on their way. Martial arts is not for them.[/QUOTE]
You, sir, speak truth!
There, I seem to be caught up now. 
Andy I think what we are having issue with is the fact that you don’t seem to consider the balance and sensitivity necessary in ground fighting. You REALLY don’t just lie on your back.
Furthermore, as somebody with considerable background in stand-up wrestling I’d strongly disagree with the idea that you should be rooted like a stone. These are the people who are the easiest to uproot or to exhaust. Dynamism and mobility are absolutely essential in stand-up wrestling.
No, I understand what you are saying perfectly clear. And I still hold fast that you’re pursuing things and looking at things the wrong way.
There is no way your mantis crew is training throws, shoots, and all types of takedowns to the level that BJJ is. That is BJJ’s focus.
I’ve been training BJJ now for about two years. I’VE NEVER BEEN SHOWN A “STANCE.” Stances don’t happen. Constant movement, even miniscule adjustments, happens.
You show someone how their feet should relatively be distanced and how to shuffle. We shuffle in circles one way, low, and then the other. Then alternating. We do this as warm up. There you go. You now know how to move with base.
Then we grab each other and alternate throwing each other. Now you know how to tug on someone to remove their base, load a leg with weight and then kick it out from under them. You learn how it feels, the dangers, when it’s being done to you. You do it 100s of times. Just training.
All techniques are introduced that way. An arm bar from your back in the guard is trained the same way: how to set up capturing the arm, using the hips to change and get superior position, etc., etc., etc.
The learning is in the doing. This is what I love about BJJ. No $hit talking. Just shut up and do it. If you don’t think it can work someone will be happy to do it to you and make you look foolish in free play all night long.
When I was teaching stand up I took a similar approach. Head gear on, boxing gloves on. Jam the lead, intercept the second while closing distance, hit. Do it 100s of times.
No need for stance talk, dragons, prayers, special medicines. Just do the thing. Here’s my students first outside comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S80wD9YBKVQ
[QUOTE=SimonM;893317]Andy I think what we are having issue with is the fact that you don’t seem to consider the balance and sensitivity necessary in ground fighting. You REALLY don’t just lie on your back.
Furthermore, as somebody with considerable background in stand-up wrestling I’d strongly disagree with the idea that you should be rooted like a stone. These are the people who are the easiest to uproot or to exhaust. Dynamism and mobility are absolutely essential in stand-up wrestling.[/QUOTE]
You know, I wish you’d keep that to yourself, the more people that think that “rooting” works in this context, the better.
More people to throw.
rooting is virtually useless against percussive short power force.