Is There Any Hope For Traditional Martial Arts

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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First, I can say that the men AND women that I know who compete in MMA are the most grounded, level-headed and modest martial artists that I know. They are that way because they deal in reality daily. They win, they lose and they immediately know why. The reason I love them is that they tend to train hard.

Sure, a lot of them have tattoos or crazy hair. I have a gold nose ring like a bull. This is just because we tend to be younger men, me being an oldie at 34. And of course, it attracts all types. Some deal with the fear of fighting by being loud and talking smack, other are quiet. But these men and women are very dedicated, focused and drenched with the best qualities martial arts can offer.

My view of TMA is not positive. Any combative claiming to be “traditional” is already out of the loop, finished. You can’t show up to a modern fight with yesterday’s technique. Not only have we all seen it, we know the counter to finish you when you employ such a relic. In the world of competitive BJJ, it’s not the finishing technique, it’s the set up… for the same reason. Everyone is progressing and hip to it. You have to be cutting edge.

Also, TMA schools promote themselves for the dedication, discipline and integrity they teach… My God, they’re like TD Barnum ringing the register off the suckers they lure in. Discipline? Integrity? Little Johnny gets to stand in front of the class with his black belt or sash, the big shot, without every producing or receiving a bloody nose.

And I know that isn’t the point of TMA. And there’s more to if than fighting. And no one needs to fight because they have ball crushing and eye popping technique. Yea, everybody has an excuse to avoid putting up.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;893044]
Training with a resiting opponent ( alive training, as much as I hate that word)[/QUOTE]

The exact reason why I went from Kung Fu to Judo.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;893044]
Training that covers all facets and ranges of a fight, INCLUDING weapons.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, I haven’t had the time to look into this aspect of training. Yea, I got staff and short stick training at my old kwoon, but I’m interested in knife tactics. Something tells me I’m more likely to run up against a knife than a bo staff…

43

I see BJJ as a traditional art - same as Judo is a traditional.

ADCC creator Prof. Nelson Monterio Jr. once said that BJJ is done with a Gi and that sometimes they train without a Gi. True BJJ is a Gi art.

Anyway- I guess my definition of a traditional art is one that specializes in one of the main components of martial arts (Shuai, Na, Ti, Da). It’s when they try to claim too much that the problems start- plus bad training is just bad training.

44

It just goes to show you never know.

Forget everything you know about the Gracies and MMA. Then think about BRAZILIAN Jiu-Jitsu for a moment. I’d run from it. The same way I’d run from Chinese rock n’ roll. But nonetheless, these guys have taken a “traditional” art that was all but dead and developed a fierce fighting style. First, because they approached it openly and with realism. And then because they kept it real and put it to the test against all kinds of fighters, first in Brazil and then internationally.

These days I don’t care about codes, creeds, histories, patches… I want to train with people who have experience. Forget all this talk about “good” teachers. That’s marketing by guys that have none. We’re not splitting atoms.

45

Here is the thing, the term TMA is thrown around way too much.
A Traditional MARTIAL art is one that keeps alive the TRADITION IT WAS DEVELOPED/CREATED in, it has nothing to do with the technical aspect of it.
If a system was created with combat in mind, with practical fighting in mind then, ANYTHING that happens to it that continues that TRADITION is withing of the tradition and as such, continues to make it a TMA.
People tend to look at the TMA that have BECOME impractical and no longer truly focus on “combat effectivness”, and they use them as examples of “band TMA” and as such, ANY TMA is the same and therefore, bad.

46

claps for SR’s perfect summation

T3h 1nt3rn3t 15 0/3r, //3 c4n 4|| 60 h0^^3 n0//.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;893130]
If a system was created with combat in mind, with practical fighting in mind then, ANYTHING that happens to it that continues that TRADITION is withing of the tradition and as such, continues to make it a TMA.
People tend to look at the TMA that have BECOME impractical and no longer truly focus on “combat effectivness”, and they use them as examples of “band TMA” and as such, ANY TMA is the same and therefore, bad.[/QUOTE]

There’s no arguing with your definition. But which style was created with a solely combat focus AND retains that focus.

First one that comes to mind is Sambo and Krav Maga. Though I’ve seen the later completely commercialized on Long Island with practitioners that are far from aggressive.

Internal? Internal is all but dead. So dead in fact that today’s representatives make the stories of the past sound absurd… and anyone who believes them akin to grown men who believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

Kung Fu? God, Kung Fu is such a laughing stock it’s practitioners don’t even know their silly verbal defense of its various systems are hilarious to the rest of us.

Karate? Maybe in the days of Okinawan farmers. Certainly not today with the plastic trophies for form and the re-breakable boards being sold on the internet.

BJJ? Some favored positions (turtle) would get you killed in a real encounter.

So what does that leave us with? Again, back to picking a choosing the best of what you can find to strengthen any holes in your game.

For me, it has now become BJJ/Vale Tudo (same coach) and boxing. After the new year I’m going to purchase my first pistol and shotgun and learn how to maintain and use them properly and efficiently. That’s the best I can think of right now.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;893135]There’s no arguing with your definition. But which style was created with a solely combat focus AND retains that focus.

First one that comes to mind is Sambo and Krav Maga. Though I’ve seen the later completely commercialized on Long Island with practitioners that are far from aggressive.

Internal? Internal is all but dead. So dead in fact that today’s representatives make the stories of the past sound absurd… and anyone who believes them akin to grown men who believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

Kung Fu? God, Kung Fu is such a laughing stock it’s practitioners don’t even know their silly verbal defense of its various systems are hilarious to the rest of us.

Karate? Maybe in the days of Okinawan farmers. Certainly not today with the plastic trophies for form and the re-breakable boards being sold on the internet.

BJJ? Some favored positions (turtle) would get you killed in a real encounter.

So what does that leave us with? Again, back to picking a choosing the best of what you can find to strengthen any holes in your game.

For me, it has now become BJJ/Vale Tudo (same coach) and boxing. After the new year I’m going to purchase my first pistol and shotgun and learn how to maintain and use them properly and efficiently. That’s the best I can think of right now.[/QUOTE]

You make valid points Ray and they show the sad decline of MA in general.
Though some will say that it applies only to “commercial” MA, that is yet to be determined.

49

in summation

I’d say “buyer beware”. I don’t hate on the traditional- I do agree with what you guys are saying mostly 'cuz there’s a lot of crap out there. But- crap isn’t constrained to just “tma” anymore. The commercial success of BJJ and the UFC has led to the creation of a lot of crappy fake mcdojo MMA gyms.

Sucks doesn’t it…

50

This isn’t confined to martial arts alone either. Tradition in general, will be contorted and manipulated to meet peoples personal goals and desires. A lot of times that leaves the tradition drawn on, empty, hollow, and devoid of its original essence. Thus destroying the tradition.

Many times when people say ‘traditional martial art’, in my opinion they are often refering to what I call ‘ethnic martial art’. CMA, JMA, FMA, Etc… as opposed to a TCMA, etc.

meaning the martial art in question has a particular ethnic flare, yet may or may not hold true to its originally evolved traditions.

We have all seen a martial art that is being labeled as traditional, when it is anything but.

The trick though is establishing WHAT the tradition is. If its fighting, then there is a pretty easy way to find out if they are traditional or not. Do they fight? Period.

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I starting writing out this post, and man did I get depressed :o

When I was training in TCMA, in NYC Chinatown you had

Hung Ga - Frank Yee

Hung Ga - Wan Chi Ming

Hung Ga - Yeung Ah Ming

Pak Hok - Chan Fei

Eagle Claw - Shum Leung

Chat Sing Tong Long - Chiu Luen

Fu Jow Pai - Wai Hong

Hsing Yi - Kenny Gong

Dragon - Wing Hong Yip

Bak Siu Lam - Johnny So

Pak Mei - Kwong Man

Pak Mei - Leung Yi Chi

Choy Lay Fut - Chan- something (forget?)

Wing Chun - Moy Yat

Golden Lion - Cheung Wah

5 Animals - Chung Sit Man

Shuai Jiao - Jeng Hsin Ping

Lo Han Men - “sifu Li”

That was just in Chinatown

now who is in Chinatown? in Manhattan? IN all 5 boros?

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[QUOTE=SimonM;893073]Your opinions are largely useless.[/QUOTE]one mans trash is another mans treasure.

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[QUOTE=MightyB;893142] The commercial success of BJJ and the UFC has led to the creation of a lot of crappy fake mcdojo MMA gyms.

Sucks doesn’t it…[/QUOTE]

I can honestly say I haven’t experienced that, though I haven’t gone looking for it. And my experience, especially since I moved down here, is one of meeting people at venues. But I see “teams” from all over. The guy who beat me in my last mma match, and since died in a bike accident, was from waaaay out in PA, in a small town by Amish country. He had a boxing couch and a full team with him. They all won.

A “fake” MMA school doesn’t seem like a concept that would last or end well for the owner/head coach. People know what MMA is. They have pretty clear expectations. And everybody has a friend that is training for real today, that’s how big its gotten. A school like that will be in for a big surprise sooner or later. I would think. I would hope.

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;893165]I starting writing out this post, and man did I get depressed :o

When I was training in TCMA, in NYC Chinatown you had

Hung Ga - Frank Yee

Hung Ga - Wan Chi Ming

Hung Ga - Yeung Ah Ming

Pak Hok - Chan Fei

Eagle Claw - Shum Leung

Chat Sing Tong Long - Chiu Luen

Fu Jow Pai - Wai Hong

Hsing Yi - Kenny Gong

Dragon - Wing Hong Yip

Bak Siu Lam - Johnny So

Pak Mei - Kwong Man

Pak Mei - Leung Yi Chi

Choy Lay Fut - Chan- something (forget?)

Wing Chun - Moy Yat

Golden Lion - Cheung Wah

5 Animals - Chung Sit Man

Shuai Jiao - Jeng Hsin Ping

Lo Han Men - “sifu Li”

That was just in Chinatown

now who is in Chinatown? in Manhattan? IN all 5 boros?[/QUOTE]

Man, you’re the last generation that can make claims like that. Golden times and location.

55

Truth is, Japanese martial arts and Chinese martial arts have their own distinct flavor, attitudes, objectives and ways of going about achieving them. There’s good stuff in there.

When I trained karate I was a kid. Bloody noses were common place and we had a tub in the back, the men’s changing room, and you’d just go back there and wash it out. No big thing. This was in the 80s. I hope there’s still core schools like this. If there are, their students will be fine.

I branched out. I found usefulness in Wing Chun’s sticking. Hell yea. Master David Bond Chan woke me up to real mechanics and leverage, how to generate power. Showed me a different way of solving problems that I agree with, just not battle hardened enough yet. So I try to keep what I like and not lose too much of it and go for the next thing. Right now jiu-jitsu has me. It’s a wonderful style.

In the end I guess, you can’t blame the schools. Everyone is free to set up shop. But what about these wack-a-doos that call themselves martial artists? With the grey robes… the yellow leggings tied up to their knees. The slippers. The three sectional staff… beautiful form. Moving like a super hero. Say “boo” too loud, too near… and they’re gone.

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;893165]I starting writing out this post, and man did I get depressed :o

Hung Ga - Frank Yee -There are Yee’s Hung-Ga in various locations-Chelsea, Brooklyn, etc
Hung Ga - Wan Chi Ming-Still around

Hung Ga - Yeung Ah Ming

Pak Hok - Chan Fei-Still going strong

Eagle Claw - Shum Leung-Fighthouse and 440

Chat Sing Tong Long - Chiu Luen -in Brooklyn

Fu Jow Pai - Wai Hong- Wai Hong still teaches privately, and teaches sword in Columbus Park, Kwan’s is still open, and Hui Cambrelen is still active

Hsing Yi - Kenny Gong-R.I.P.

Dragon - Wing Hong Yip-still actively teaching-not on 22 Mott, but in the basement of his furniture shop-BTW-his video, which is many years old, was shot there.

Bak Siu Lam - Johnny So

Pak Mei - Kwong Man -Baxter St
Pak Mei-Chan-Daw teaches privately
Pak Mei - Leung Yi Chi

Choy Lay Fut - Chan- something (forget?) There is a Hung Sing school in Chinatown

Wing Chun - Moy Yat-Flushing

Golden Lion - Cheung Wah

5 Animals - Chung Sit Man

Shuai Jiao - Jeng Hsin Ping-His school is still active

Lo Han Men - “sifu Li”

That was just in Chinatown

now who is in Chinatown? in Manhattan? IN all 5 boros?[/QUOTE]
on top of that,There is
Southern mantis-James Cama, Norman Chin, Milton Chin, and others
Lung Ying Dragon Style-Chan Duk-San
Fut-Sao Wing Chun-Henry Leung’s guys
Wing Chun-Alan Lee,Phil Redmond,VA Thomas,James Cama,Chung Chow,etc
Hung-Ga-Paul ‘Koh’,Bill Fong,Yui Chow
Buk Sing CLF-NY
and don’t forget-LamaPaiSifu
a good dozen Tai-Chi schools
Sure, many of the older guys have retired or passed away, but many have also passed the torch.
But-I do miss seeing Fu Jow P’ai right at the top of Canal St. It was like,“Welcome to Chinatown”

57

I, respectfully, disagree…

58

Plenty of “fake” MMA schools. Thing is - and this is what separates sportive arts from non-sportive ones, is that I will ALWAYS be able to find good MMA instruction if I want it. Same with Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc.

I don’t have to go by reputation, lineage etc. I just need to know who is turning out people who are winning. And there you go.

Will any of these arts - or MMA even - turn you into a fighter? Not necessarily. But a practitioner at a decent school (not great, not even good, but decent), will have a useable skill set in little time.

Mastery is hard work down the line, as always.

It goes back to identification. MMA Mcdojo crap is fairly prolific…but identifying the “real” stuff is super super easy. And that’s the great advantage a sportive art gives.

This does not apply to point sparring tap-tap games :wink: However, if you want to be the best at point sparring, go see that coach!

59

Cargo Cult Karate/Kung Fu

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;893130]Here is the thing, the term TMA is thrown around way too much.
A Traditional MARTIAL art is one that keeps alive the TRADITION IT WAS DEVELOPED/CREATED in, it has nothing to do with the technical aspect of it.
If a system was created with combat in mind, with practical fighting in mind then, ANYTHING that happens to it that continues that TRADITION is withing of the tradition and as such, continues to make it a TMA.
People tend to look at the TMA that have BECOME impractical and no longer truly focus on “combat effectivness”, and they use them as examples of “band TMA” and as such, ANY TMA is the same and therefore, bad.[/QUOTE]

Many traditional styles have become cargo cults where the members think that by dressing a certain way, speaking a certain way, acting a certain way and going through traditional rituals that they too will have the combat skills of Master Who Flung Dung magically dropped on them. Most never understand what really develops skill.

60

[QUOTE=rogue;893207]Many traditional styles have become cargo cults where the members think that by dressing a certain way, speaking a certain way, acting a certain way and going through traditional rituals that they too will have the combat skills of Master Who Flung Dung magically dropped on them. Most never understand what really develops skill.[/QUOTE]

There is a cult mentality in all MA, that is a given.
We all agree that the lack of functional fighting skills is the “disease” currently eating away at TMA, and most will agree that it has very little to do with the systems themselves but what a handful of so-called “masters” have perverted said systems into being.