Is it still "kung fu" if it looks like kickboxing?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

it really also depends on the person and their body type and how they use their body in mobility and footwork. i see people who train the same style fight move differently regarding bouncing/hopping.

there is a disconnect

between forms, solo pad/heavybag etc., drills in the air, and on to partner drills, pad/bag work with a trainer, sparring, fighting. you will see it increase from form to pad to sparring and fighting. how someone enters and exits etc.

its not the same thing in the sense that your state of being and reactionary movement/awareness arent going to be the same. like a fight isnt going to ever really look like a form.

a lot of times when people say ‘look like kungfu’ they refer to forms or movies. and no it wont look like that. BUT you will see people who fight and it will many times look like kung fu. esp if thats all they trained, you will see tendancies in things like ready stance, guard, entering/exiting, countering things like that.

but thats all in the nuances. you wont see beginners fight much different than any other beginners. thats how it is.

can you see thai boxing when its thai boxing, or how about someone who is a very advanced western boxer adapting to kickboxing but sparring hard with it, can you tell he has boxing training simply by how he fights and moves? the techniques and methods of thai boxing are so defined, prounounced, and focues that it is easy to see. but you can see the same qualities represent themselves from any style

22

Good post!

This statement is true, and very revealing:

[QUOTE=Lucas;1043426]
but thats all in the nuances. you wont see beginners fight much different than any other beginners. thats how it is.[/quote]

That is why the so called “kung fu” trained MMA people who post here and say that all kung fu fighting looks like kickboxing, are actually talking about their own BEGINNER LEVEL of kung fu!

They have never gone beyond that level, so they see all fighting as KICKBOXING!

23

if it makes some of you feel better instead of saying those kung fu guys fight like kickboxers you can just say the kickboxers fight like kung fu guys:p

24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp74GsHUoYw

00:10 black use seven star stance red use beat the drum stance 00:17 black opens with singe whip red counter with tiger hug 0:36 red use step over tiger black counter with step over tiger 0:48 red use tiger tail kick ,black counter with brush knee, fails, tries beast head, fails 1:03 red tries low plant black counter with reverse step over tiger 1:22 clinch(jinlan siping) 1:45 face the sun

25

[QUOTE=bawang;1043460]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp74GsHUoYw

00:10 black use seven star stance red use beat the drum stance 00:17 black opens with singe whip red counter with tiger hug 0:36 red use step over tiger black counter with step over tiger 0:48 red use tiger tail kick ,black counter with brush knee, fails, tries beast head, fails 1:03 red tries low plant black counter with reverse step over tiger 1:22 clinch(jinlan siping) 1:45 face the sun[/QUOTE]

Thank god Dave, for a second I thought you were going to post of your New York San Doh! “fights”…LOL!

26

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1042982]If by kick boxing you mean that a person doing “kung fu” kicks and punches then yes, everytime anyone does kung fu that way it will look like KB>
Fact is, and this has been discussed ad nausem, when under the stress of combat and vs a resisteing trained opponent, ALL ma tend to look like KB because it is the most natural and effective way for the body to “move”.
That said, it doesn’t mean one is NOT doing kung fu, whatever THAT means.[/QUOTE]

Muay thai never looks like kickboxing.

27

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1043536]Muay thai never looks like kickboxing.[/QUOTE]

Kickboxing is a generic term bro.

28

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1043538]Kickboxing is a generic term bro.[/QUOTE]

Generic for pale white dudes in the seventies not doing muay thai, I understand.:smiley:

Nonetheless, muay thai looks like itself when done by people trained in it. And other kicking styles don’t look like muay thai.

Are you saying that, in full contact matches, you can’t distinguish the muay thai kickers trained in muay thai from ones trained in karate or some other kicking style?

29

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1043545]Generic for pale white dudes in the seventies not doing muay thai, I understand.:smiley:

Nonetheless, muay thai looks like itself when done by people trained in it. And other kicking styles don’t look like muay thai.

Are you saying that, in full contact matches, you can’t distinguish the muay thai kickers trained in muay thai from ones trained in karate or some other kicking style?[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure what your point is dude…

30

Stylistic didfferences are not all ironed out in full contact. A muay thai fighter is usually apparent in mma, as are karate fighters somewhat less often. Most things are the same, but all? It really doesn’t seem like full contact footage supports that conclusion.

31

is point sparring, nuff said. its not a real fights its training.

32

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1043552]Stylistic didfferences are not all ironed out in full contact. A muay thai fighter is usually apparent in mma, as are karate fighters somewhat less often. Most things are the same, but all? It really doesn’t seem like full contact footage supports that conclusion.[/QUOTE]

Sure you will always see SOME stuff that is unique, Andy Hug doing Axe kicks, the spinning hook kicks and back kicks of TKD, the round kick of MT, spinning back fists, etc.
I am still not sure what your point is bro, sorry.
My point was that, in the heat of full contact that most people and styles end up looking like “typical KB”, ie: punches and kicks and what not, thrown in combos with very little of that “shaw brothers kung fu” look to it.

33

Kyokushin, Taekwondo, and Muay Thai in K1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvBLMRl5agg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P70hbVHDLrY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyivfYgTwg0&feature=fvst

Of course it has the style in the field, but it’s pretty easy to tell techniques or style from each of these fighters, granted these are three of the best fighters ever in each disipline. IMO somethings do look the same obviously but you can definetily tell the differences in style, of course, that is also the individual as well.

And of course, let’s not forget San Shou;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWjh4HTiDBk

34

I’m arguing a nuance, that’s all.

Shaw brothers has nothing to do with what I’m arguing.

In the heat of it, the sound of a well trained muay thai guys kick hitting, and the look of it, are all recognizable. The guy who mainly does bjj’s takedowns tend to have their look. Some are differences in individual moves, some are stylistic nuances to common moves, but they’re all generally giveaways to what the fighter trained most.

The idea that a kung fu fighter will have none of those is self limiting, as it will prevent them from looking for martial reasons for the differences and training them full contact just like every other stylist does, imo.

My point is that this idea, that all fighting, done full contact, ends up looking exactly the same, doesn’t pan out when actually viewing full contact fights, we DO see what different people trained in to some extent, not in the leads and crosses perhaps, but in their overall game and some of their body mechanics, which is why I used muay thai as an example, since their body mechanics on kicks and the clinch is so easily recognizable when contrasted with other kickers in the same venues: we will see some people doing similar clinch work, but that will not make us confuse them with someone whose most involved training is muay thai.

This said, the idea that nothing a kung fu fighter does is the same as everyone else is patently false. Most is seen somewhere else, but one’s training should show through, right?

35

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1042929]Have a look at this video clipo from China. Some may say that some of the stuff looks like “kickboxing”, however, one can see Baji/kung fu techniques also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4&feature=related

So, the fact is that in a real fight, the moves cannot be executed cleanly, as in choreography, but the kung fu element should be recognizbable by informed onlookers.[/QUOTE]
I love the throw at 0:14.

36

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1043562]I’m arguing a nuance, that’s all.

Shaw brothers has nothing to do with what I’m arguing.

In the heat of it, the sound of a well trained muay thai guys kick hitting, and the look of it, are all recognizable. The guy who mainly does bjj’s takedowns tend to have their look. Some are differences in individual moves, some are stylistic nuances to common moves, but they’re all generally giveaways to what the fighter trained most.

The idea that a kung fu fighter will have none of those is self limiting, as it will prevent them from looking for martial reasons for the differences and training them full contact just like every other stylist does, imo.

My point is that this idea, that all fighting, done full contact, ends up looking exactly the same, doesn’t pan out when actually viewing full contact fights, we DO see what different people trained in to some extent, not in the leads and crosses perhaps, but in their overall game and some of their body mechanics, which is why I used muay thai as an example, since their body mechanics on kicks and the clinch is so easily recognizable when contrasted with other kickers in the same venues: we will see some people doing similar clinch work, but that will not make us confuse them with someone whose most involved training is muay thai.

This said, the idea that nothing a kung fu fighter does is the same as everyone else is patently false. Most is seen somewhere else, but one’s training should show through, right?[/QUOTE]

Ok, lets look at it this way and I think its a better analogy too:
Look at the drills for boxing, MT and such, look at their shadow boxing and equipment routines.
Now look at their fighting.
It will be the same, same movement, same stances, same force delivery, etc, etc.

Now, look at insert TCMA here.

Look at their forms and drills and such.
Now look at them fighting full contact EFFECTIVLY.

see what I mean?

37

[QUOTE=ghostexorcist;1043568]I love the throw at 0:14.[/QUOTE]

Me too.:slight_smile:

It was a typical technique from Baji Quan, I understand. It was cleanly executed, and on top of that it did not look like kickboxing.

38

You guys realize that it was Baji VS Baji , right?

39

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1043585]Ok, lets look at it this way and I think its a better analogy too:
Look at the drills for boxing, MT and such, look at their shadow boxing and equipment routines.
Now look at their fighting.
It will be the same, same movement, same stances, same force delivery, etc, etc.

Now, look at insert TCMA here.

Look at their forms and drills and such.
Now look at them fighting full contact EFFECTIVLY.

see what I mean?[/QUOTE]

I understand what you’re saying, but it implies form uninformed by usage.

If they use it, if their drills are worked for usage, their shadowboxing and such informed by usage, then the disparity between how they do it in form and how they do it in use, the over stylization, tends to disappear in part from the form(in part because the form is still just a compilation without little footworks in between, etc), and the over stylization dissapears completely in shadowboxing and useful live drills.

BUT, when fighting, they will still likely be recognizable to someone who really is familiar with their fighting method(vs. form) as a fighter coming from that background, just like every other type of fighter tends to give cues of their background.

It’s not that they should look like a Shaw brothers film, ridiculous numbers of moves choreographed for entertainment, just as mma fights don’t end up looking much like movie renditions of such, slightly less ridiculous numbers of moves strung together for entertainment, just that they should look like they trained what they do, not what a muay thai fighter or a karate fighter or whatever specifically focuses on that is distinguishable as muay thai, or karate, or whatever.

40

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1043594]You guys realize that it was Baji VS Baji , right?[/QUOTE]

Of course we do, and I understand where you are going with this, but we live in a world that even some “kung fu” guys fighting each other may turn out to look like pure kickboxing, without any kung fu techniques, rooting/stances, strategies, etc. apparent.

So, even for a kung fu vs kung fu fight, this clip is a relative rarity.