Is Chi Sau a Practice Tool or Fighting Tool ?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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As an outsider posting for the first time on this forum I would like to ask the forum members on their opinion on whether Chi Sau was designed as a practice drill to develop skills or is it an actual combat drill.

From what i have read so far, am i right in thinking that Chi Sau is primarily a drill to develop sensitivity and timing ? And that is the reason for the rolling ?

If the above is the case, does it mean the Wing Chun goons that focus mainly on Chi Sau are just developing skill sets rather than applicable combat skills.

And finally why do you use a Bong ? From what i can understand it is a very vulnerable position even if it is used an an intermediate action as it exposes the elbow in its execution and requires the assistant of the Wu Sau or other hand to make the Bong effective. How can a position or execution be called effective if it requires the assistance of the another hand, whereas most of the other Southern system can recieve the same attack but
perform an effective defence and offence using only the one hand ? Is not any position other than when strking weak when the elbow is not rooted below or onto the horizontal.

I would be very intested to hear your answers, and please dont take it as a dig at Wing Chun, i am just curious to see the answers as i am not an expert in Wing Chun.

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Re: Is Chi Sau a Practice Tool or Fighting Tool ?

Originally posted by Shaolin Fist
As an outsider posting for the first time on this forum I would like to ask the forum members on their opinion on whether Chi Sau was designed as a practice drill to develop skills or is it an actual combat drill.

Straight away this seems like a false dichotomy. You dont develop skills for their own sake - you develop them for use in combat.

Originally posted by Shaolin Fist
From what i have read so far, am i right in thinking that Chi Sau is primarily a drill to develop sensitivity and timing ? And that is the reason for the rolling ?

Its true that Chi sau is a sensitvity drill but that in and of itself is not particularly illuminating. So the question arises sensitivity to what? The immediate answer seems to be ‘to force’- but what kinds of forces?

IMV it teaches you to distinguish between two types of force - forces that threaten (are directed towards) your centre of gravity and forces that aren’t. In the later case it is teaching you to ignore (i.e. not to interact with/fight against) these forces and in the former cases it is teaching you to handle them either by channeling the force into the ground with your structure (hence the reason for the stance and the hand shapes being as they are) or by turning the stance in order to divert the force away from your centre of gravity once the force reaches a certain critical point.

Originally posted by Shaolin Fist
And finally why do you use a Bong ? From what i can understand it is a very vulnerable position even if it is used an an intermediate action as it exposes the elbow in its execution and requires the assistant of the Wu Sau or other hand to make the Bong effective. How can a position or execution be called effective if it requires the assistance of the another hand, whereas most of the other Southern system can recieve the same attack but
perform an effective defence and offence using only the one hand ? Is not any position other than when striking weak when the elbow is not rooted below or onto the horizontal.

When you understand how bong sau works and how it is integrated with the rest of wing chun (i.e. the body structure, fight strategy etc.) you will see that bong sau is a logical action (in fact the only effective action) in certain specfic scenarios.

Also, IMO, many people use bong sau incorrectly i.e. as a shield that covers a wide area - more akin to a rising bloke in karate, than as a forward spiralling action that is used to divert and control your opponents at the elbow (not at the wrist as the higher type of bong sau does).

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What is a Wing Chun goon??

And yes, Chi Sao is a drill to develop sensitivity and timing.

As for Bong Sau, there is no need to support the Bong Sau with the Wu sau. In fact I would not recommend it. I think your understanding of Bong Sau is quite flawed, but since you are “an outsider” that is understandable.

BTW, how are you coming to these conclusions?

Peace,

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the core principle of Chi Sau is a concept of Non-Nistruptive Monitoring Or NDM.

Chi Sau is a way of developing and appliying AWARENESS.
And One lives with Awareness in Every Instant and every phase of living after one understand Chi Sau basic.

The ultimate of the Chi Sau is beyond shape and patterns because it is a direct living experience of NDM.

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To answer the question about Bong Sau: It should be seen as a motion,not a “fixed shape”. It uses a drilling motion with some forward energy and at an angle to deflect an incoming force. You don’t just raise the elbow. It takes some times and well guided practice to fully understand it.

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IMO, chi sau is for development of WC attributes (sensitivity, timing, awareness, etc.) and is only - ‘loosely’ - a fighting practice by the fact that you are developing skills used in fighting practice. Chi sau, in no way, should be considered a combat exercise (directly).

I agree with OJ’s statement regarding bong sau, and I would extend it to include all WC technique. Nothing is fixed. All ‘techniques’ are deformations of an attack (punch, palm, etc.) and happen as a result of the incoming attack pressure and the angle it’s traveling.

IMO, the ‘elbow up’ position of bong sau is weaker than ‘elbow down’ or ‘rooted’ in the arena of delivering a powerful strike, but in the arena of deflecting an incoming attack, depending on the nature of the attack desribed above, it is quite nessisary (within the WC doctrine).

As for bong sau requiring the use of another hand technique, this is quite untrue. I’m not sure where you ( Shaolin Fist) got this impression, but it is a false impression. Were it to be from a photo, keep in mind this is a ‘still shot’ of a moving action. The fact that a person would flow from a bong sau to another technique is quite possible and most probable (as we don’t ‘pose’, now do we??). That doesn’t mean the bong sau required help, it just illustrates how it isn’t fixed.

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Nick Forrer,

Straight away this seems like a false dichotomy. You dont develop skills for their own sake - you develop them for use in combat.

This kind of reminds me of grade school academia cutting the budgets of art and music programs in order to salvage reading and writing. It’s an unfortunate trade off - and that is the false dichotomy. Though such cuts are understandable actions, if kept that way, pretty soon there will be nothing to read or write about.

Springtime is not about awaiting summer or relief that winter is over. Sure, you can have a preference. But, like every season, springtime - a beautiful springtime - should be admired for its own sake.

Many people do, as you put it, “develop skills for their own sake.” For most who do so, this is not a misguided notion as you suggest. Some who try it are called hobbyists. Others might be called artists. :wink:

Shaolin Fist,

You are correct in observing that BongSao is weak. However, as old jong observed already, you are confusing a position with a movement. BongSao is not allowed to stay. Its nature demands that it change immediately. (TanSao is not allowed to stay either, but that’s another subject.) Among other ways, you can change a BongSao by adding a WuSao with the second hand. However, now it is no longer BongSao: it has gone away and become QuanSao. QuanSao has its own set of compromises, but the nature of its positioning/movement does allow it to stick around for a while relative to BongSao.

A person doesn’t fight using ChiSao, or anything else for that matter. It isn’t some sort of “fight toolkit” to pull out, dazzle people with its niftyness, and put away. The person in the fight is what is fighting. Everything - their entire essence - should be there because it is they who stand there who are the fight. To bring anything less is just another monkey dance (posturing). Practice is working on weakness. Testing is putting your strengths on the line to see if they really can be called your strengths. Fighting is throwing everything you have, or can beg, borrow, steal, or fake into the breech.

FYI: Here is a short article about ChiSao written by my SiHing, Miguel Hernandez, which you may find interesting: http://www.Moyyat.com/chisao.html

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Thanks for the responses

Thanks very much for your responses…its certainly a technical forum, even though i always thought of myself as technical, but i am in the company of very experienced and knowlegeable Wing Chun practicioners i feel i am right in the deep end if you know what i mean !

(Nick)
Also, IMO, many people use bong sau incorrectly i.e. as a shield that covers a wide area - more akin to a rising bloke in karate, than as a forward spiralling action that is used to divert and control your opponents at the elbow (not at the wrist as the higher type of bong sau does).

Yes i agree if i were to imitate the ‘Bong’ i would actually use the elbow as the source of deflection or offence as that way one would have good control of ones elbows which allows the arm to maintain structural lock making it harder for the opponent to control your arm through floating or sinking. And so in that regards i would prefer the flexible elbow which is exactly what many Southern systems would use.

(Matrix)
As for Bong Sau, there is no need to support the Bong Sau with the Wu sau. In fact I would not recommend it. I think your understanding of Bong Sau is quite flawed, but since you are “an outsider” that is understandable.

Thanks, it would seem that way, but i can only draw my conclusions from my own person experience and exposure with Wing Chun and that has been through some interactions with friends studying Wing Chun. But as i have realised, it is possible that they themselves may not have executed the Bong correction or may not have had the full understanding for its use, which is why i approached this forum.

I have noticed when playing with my Wing Chun friends if i sink their bong at their wrists, their arm just locks and they are unable to recover that same arm except to turn and try to use their Wu. But as Nick said earlier maybe they are trying too much area and so they are using the Bong at the wrong range ?

(Old Jong)
To answer the question about Bong Sau: It should be seen as a motion,not a “fixed shape”. It uses a drilling motion with some forward energy and at an angle to deflect an incoming force. You don’t just raise the elbow. It takes some times and well guided practice to fully understand it.

I see, but the point i was trying to make was, wouldn’t you open yourself to be floated or flanked or locked if you exposed your elbow, whether there was forward energy or not ?

(yellowpickachu)
The ultimate of the Chi Sau is beyond shape and patterns because it is a

I guess that would be the ultimate goal of Chi Sau ? so from my understanding, wouldn’t the flow be better maintained if both elbows were kept down ? a bit like the pushing hands of Tai Chi.

(AmanuJRY)

As for bong sau requiring the use of another hand technique, this is quite untrue. I’m not sure where you ( Shaolin Fist) got this impression, but it is a false impression. Were it to be from a photo, keep in mind this is a ‘still shot’ of a moving action. The fact that a person would flow from a bong sau to another technique is quite possible and most probable (as we don’t ‘pose’, now do we??). That doesn’t mean the bong sau required help, it just illustrates how it isn’t fixed.

Without using elbow energy how is it possible to flow from Bong into another technique using the same arm if you encounter a powerful forward sinking energy, or a sink and draw back from a slightly taller opponent ? And if you turned your body in response then would you not compromise your balance and hence your centre line if that sinking force carried through ?

Thanks respectively

SF

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(Tom Kagan)

You are correct in observing that BongSao is weak. However, as old jong observed already, you are confusing a position with a movement. BongSao is not allowed to stay. Its nature demands that it change immediately.

Thanks, but my original point was can the Bong be used independently or can it change from defence to offence without the aid of the other arm ?

Also as there is so much emphasis on Chi Sau, it would seem disappointing that you couldn’t just use just Chi Sau in a real fight …Why ?

Why would you have a Chi Sau system which when i watch it, looks all intense and purposely like a control fight, but not be able to used as a tool in a real fight without modification ? is that not kidding the practitioner ? I would understand if it were a drill, but then from what i understand, you can attack and defend in Chi Sau and also beat your Chi Sau partner, so why cant it you fight with it ?

SF

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I see, but the point i was trying to make was, wouldn’t you open yourself to be floated or flanked or locked if you exposed your elbow, whether there was forward energy or not ?

I could elaborate for hours on this subject but I know Wing Chun,I teach Wing Chun and the answer is no!..It’s just too long to explain like this on a forum.Go learn it in a good school if you are really interested. :wink:

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Shaolin Fist
Without using elbow energy how is it possible to flow from Bong into another technique using the same arm if you encounter a powerful forward sinking energy, or a sink and draw back from a slightly taller opponent ? And if you turned your body in response then would you not compromise your balance and hence your centre line if that sinking force carried through ?

It is diffucult (and an endless discussion) to go into every aspect of ‘what would you do against this’ or ‘how does bong sau work when this happens’, so to simplify the answer it would change into something else.

  1. Bong sau does use elbow energy.
  2. if bong sau encounters a strong sinking energy, depending on how that energy is acting, it would change in dynamic to another technique - i.e.; if the sinking force is near the elbow, it may cause the bong sau to become a tan sau, if the sinking force is near the wrist it may deflect the energy to the lower side and be supported by a technique with the other hand.
  3. If you turn your body in response it should not comprimise your balance (providing your footwork is good), and if your bong sau is correct it should not comprimise your centerline either.

All in all, the questions are a bit vauge for a specific reply (although I have tried), too many vaiables (is the attack from the opposite side as the bong? is the force sinking this way? that way? is the person attacking stepping a certain way? etc.) could be present to dictate the ‘actual’ response and is therefor easier to demonstrate than to describe.

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Why would you have a Chi Sau system which when i watch it, looks all intense and purposely like a control fight, but not be able to used as a tool in a real fight without modification ? is that not kidding the practitioner ? I would understand if it were a drill, but then from what i understand, you can attack and defend in Chi Sau and also beat your Chi Sau partner, so why cant it you fight with it ?

There are a lot of Wing Chun practitioners and even Sifus who don’t fully understand the meaning of Chi Sau,so don’t worry!..:wink:
Chi Sau has a very strong effect on a practitioner fighting capacities but it has to be learned the right way in the first place.Guys who are working on “tricks” to beat the training partner will never be really good because it is true…Chi Sau is not a fight…Guys who practice Chi Sau the right way will easyly transpose what they developped in Chi Sau in whatever they want. It is that simple.Just remember that Chi Sau is not the only ingredient of Wing Chun.It must be based on well understood Wing Chun principles.This is the Wing Chun way but there are others.Some are more the “technique vs technique” type,where you learn to block that strike “this way” and that other thing “that way” ETC…You have many approaches to fit your needs and personal preferences.
BTW, There is no kidding involved as far as I’m concerned.

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Thanks, but my original point was can the Bong be used independently or can it change from defence to offence without the aid of the other arm ?

If you reread my post, you will discover that is what I said. The other arm is one way. To go to an extreme, another way is for me to expectorate at my opponent’s face.

While the art of argument can be developed and enjoyed for its own sake, knowing the subject is what makes argument fun. So, before you argue the merits and limitations of BongSao, I suggest you learn what it is first, because your questions indicate you do not. Unfortunately, that knowledge is beyond my meager abilities to provide to you via the written word.

Regarding ChiSao: It is not fighting. It is not controlled fighting. It is PRACTICE. You work your weaknesses over and over in practice. No one wins or loses; you and your partner (distinctly different than an opponent) hopefully get better and eventually have new weaknesses to work on.

Do you really want to practice in a fight? Don’t juxtapose the method with the result - unless, of course, you wish to argue for its own sake. :D:D

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Re: Thanks for the responses

Originally posted by Shaolin Fist
Thanks, it would seem that way, but i can only draw my conclusions from my own person experience and exposure with Wing Chun and that has been through some interactions with friends studying Wing Chun. But as i have realised, it is possible that they themselves may not have executed the Bong correction or may not have had the full understanding for its use, which is why i approached this forum.
Shaolin Fist,
We can all be prisioners of our experiences. :wink:
I do not want to say that my way is correct, or their way is wrong. However, what I understand from your descriptions does not match my training. Supporting the Bong with a Wu Sau is asking to have your hands trapped, and the Wu does not add value to the Bong Sau, it merely takes away from your overall structure. At least that’s how I see it.

I’m sure that you may have seen others who train in the same style as you do, but seem to have different “interpretations” of the art. So it is with all arts, and Wing Chun is no different.

I have noticed when playing with my Wing Chun friends if i sink their bong at their wrists, their arm just locks and they are unable to recover that same arm except to turn and try to use their Wu. But as Nick said earlier maybe they are trying too much area and so they are using the Bong at the wrong range ?
The Bong Sau is a “wing hand”. Like a wing, it does not remain static. Once the bridge has been established, it should immediately change to another hand, let’s say Tan Sau for the example that you gave…but I don’t want this to devolve into an if-this-then-that type discussion. The fact that your friend locks his Bong upon pressure is not a good sign in my opinion. It sounds like he is trying to use strength to counter your pressure which is counterproductive at best. Never lock, and especially with Bong as it is highly susceptible. However Bong Sau is a great tool, to be used when the timing and situation is correct. Like all tools you need to know when it is appropriate, and how to use it.

Peace,

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(AmanuJRY)

All in all, the questions are a bit vauge for a specific reply (although I have tried), too many vaiables (is the attack from the opposite side as the bong? is the force sinking this way? that way? is the person attacking stepping a certain way? etc.) could be present to dictate the ‘actual’ response and is therefor easier to demonstrate than to describe.

Sorry i should have been more specific. If you encounter a simultaneous Ying Yang energy, i.e during Chi Sau the Bong is being attacked full on at the wrist/forearm point with driving heavy energy whilst at the same time the other arm is retrained to prevent turning of the body…would not the elbow of the Bong be trapped and the Tan be inneffective due to the forward sinking ?

What would be the best way to counter this type of Chi Sau attack ? I ask because i have tried to learn to use the Bong, but after numerous practice against this type of attack, i have failed to make the Bong work. And sometimes as i am aware it maybe the most simplest of things that i am not been made aware of. So i dont mean to get you into ‘if i do this then what if !’ but in our style, Sinking and Chin Na is heavily used and i always take the opportunity to test out my newly acquired Wing Chun knowlege in our classes (discreetly off course !)

Off course i know i need to find myself a good WC but unfortunately all the ones that i have visited have been really disappointing. So it would be great if any if you know of any strong technical instructors teaching in London, who dont take my Shaolin MA background as a Dummy to be tested on ? (not that i come across ****y or aloof in anyway) And who dont take offence when i react differently in my Chi Sau cos of my previous Shaolin Kiu/Chi Sau training.

(Tom Kagan)
While the art of argument can be developed and enjoyed for its own sake, knowing the subject is what makes argument fun. So, before you argue the merits and limitations of BongSao, I suggest you learn what it is first, because your questions indicate you do not. Unfortunately, that knowledge is beyond my meager abilities to provide to you via the written word.

Please dont take it the wrong way, the reaon why i am asking is because i am seeking an answer. Off course i can only draw from my own experiences, but i have not yet comes accross a Bong that works and my WC friends are all at instructor levels( And with no dis-respect to them, they may not have the answer cos of their ability or lack of knowlege) And i have also been introduced to a couple of instructors in HK through my brother-in-law and yet i still havent found the answer.
For me personally i need to know why or how a ‘real’ Bong works cos being from a Shaolin background (15yrs) with much experience in Shaolin Chi/Kiu Sau. And it would seem that i am specifically looking for this answer which has so far frustratingly eluded me, which is why i have approached the WC forum.

Excuse the long windedness, as i know looking for an answer through words is not easy, but for any of you guys to show me would be difficult unless any of you guys plan on visiting London anytime in the future ?

SF

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I think a Bong sau is not a vulnerable position unless you leave it there or apply it like a Karate rising block. From a spear fighting perspective, suppose you both have your spears crossed with tips facing up. The opponent applies an overwhelming pressure which is off-center towards your right. Then you simply let that pressure fold or turn your spear such that for a second the tip is facing downwards on it’s way to tuning into a strike. By the time the opponent tried to recover, he is already struck. In Emin Boztepe’s usage he punches you, you jam his punch, his punching arm deflects momentarily to go around your punch and hit you. The Bong sau lasts less than a split second. You would need a high speed camera to catch the shape. So it’s a transition movement with no defect. Only a wrong application gives it a defect. Try to really use the principle of receive the incoming force to find a solution. What do you have to adjust to make that idea work? What position, what timing? What’s the earliest tip off?

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Try to apply the following- When the head is attacked the tail comes up, when the tail is attacked the head comes up. Head= wrist tail= elbow. Next apply the concept of folding when your bong sau is grappled. Since you practice chin na this should help. 3rd use your body. the biggest fault found in wing chun players is they dont really know how to use their body. Fold with your whole body not just the bong or tan arm. When the bong is ripped down use your whole body and move in. this combined with tail comes up should provide your answer.

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Originally posted by hunt1
When the head is attacked the tail comes up, when the tail is attacked the head comes up. Head= wrist tail= elbow.

That is a useful bit of imagery.

Regards,

  • kj
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Originally posted by Shaolin Fist
(
Please dont take it the wrong way, the reaon why i am asking is because i am seeking an answer. Off course i can only draw from my own experiences, but i have not yet comes accross a Bong that works and my WC friends are all at instructor levels( And with no dis-respect to them, they may not have the answer cos of their ability or lack of knowlege) And i have also been introduced to a couple of instructors in HK through my brother-in-law and yet i still havent found the answer.
For me personally i need to know why or how a ‘real’ Bong works cos being from a Shaolin background (15yrs) with much experience in Shaolin Chi/Kiu Sau. And it would seem that i am specifically looking for this answer which has so far frustratingly eluded me, which is why i have approached the WC forum.

Come up to my teachers class in st albans on a saturday and we/he will show you how bong sau works.

It starts at 12 and you can train till 3 if you want.
You need to get the train from kings cross st pancras to st albans which takes about half an hour and then its about 15 minutes walk from the station

from South London I would say give yourself an hour and a half in total to get there

the website is www.wongvingtsun.co.uk

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Yong Chun and Hunt1…thanks for the pointers, i will certainly try to encorporate the ideas and give them a try. At the end of the day i am always determined to perfect ideals, but off course i need to prove it to myself before i will accept it regardless whether it has a 300 year history or not and the Bong Sau is one concept of Southern Shaolin i’m finding hard to conquer.

Nick forrer…thanks for the invite, i do work sats, but i’m sure i will have a holiday sometime when i will pay you a visit. If you could leave me a tel. no for your club, that would be great

SF