Is Chi Sau a Practice Tool or Fighting Tool ?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Originally posted by Shaolin Fist
At the end of the day i am always determined to perfect ideals, but off course i need to prove it to myself before i will accept it regardless whether it has a 300 year history or not and the Bong Sau is one concept of Southern Shaolin i’m finding hard to conquer.
SF,
Find the time to go and see Nick, it will probably save you a lot of struggle. Hunt1’s advice is great, however I fear that you may be missing the true essence of the lessons, since it is really difficult to communicate these concepts completely through words alone. Of course, the same goes for the words of wisdom from Ray and Justin… and Old Jong and of course don’t forget Tom. :slight_smile: Such great people, aren’t they? :smiley:

Also, I agree that previous experience can get in the way. Old habits die hard. I have my own struggles with the demons of martial arts of my past.

Best of Luck,

22

Originally posted by YongChun
I think a Bong sau is not a vulnerable position unless you leave it there or apply it like a Karate rising block. From a spear fighting perspective, suppose you both have your spears crossed with tips facing up. The opponent applies an overwhelming pressure which is off-center towards your right. Then you simply let that pressure fold or turn your spear such that for a second the tip is facing downwards on it’s way to tuning into a strike. By the time the opponent tried to recover, he is already struck. In Emin Boztepe’s usage he punches you, you jam his punch, his punching arm deflects momentarily to go around your punch and hit you. The Bong sau lasts less than a split second. You would need a high speed camera to catch the shape. So it’s a transition movement with no defect. Only a wrong application gives it a defect. Try to really use the principle of receive the incoming force to find a solution. What do you have to adjust to make that idea work? What position, what timing? What’s the earliest tip off?

Yes, on some of the footage I have of Emin I have seen this too, They call it the Bamboo/Rattan method of coming back and rebounding, it is a form of forward intention, but if one were to deflect at the elbow of Emin’s punch this would not happen, and he wouldn’t be able to go around it as easily. This is some of the flaws I see in lots of the WC out there today, by just adjusting one simple thing you could change allot in the outcome. In a opposite example Emin likes to use from what I have seen the same principal when the opponent attacks with a straight punch, he will subtlety bong to the outside or tan to the inside depending on the energy/direction of the punch, before you even see it then he counters immediately, but he does not like to interfere with the opponents punching movement, just letting it extend in its natural extension. I would prefer to disrupt the punch and deflect it offline so that the retraction of the arm from the punch is not of a natural nature and therefore it is slowed down by my deflection, this also creates a better opening when countering at the same time.

Yes, these are some of the differences the lineages face, different philosophies and interpretations of concepts. Is one way of doing things more effective than others?

James

23

They call it the Bamboo/Rattan method of coming back and rebounding

Funny, I never heard it called that.:confused:

The ‘technique’ you guys are referring to, in our locale, was referred to as a ‘roll-over’ and is in response to a person’s attack not being on the centerline. It’s used in poon sau as a ‘check’ measure.

Of course it can be used as an attack if that kind of pressure is present.

If the attack is ‘centered’, it negates such an attack (although it becomes much more difficult if you add an offline and a kau/gum sau to the other arm).

Shaolin Fist,

Sorry i should have been more specific. If you encounter a simultaneous Ying Yang energy, i.e during Chi Sau the Bong is being attacked full on at the wrist/forearm point with driving heavy energy whilst at the same time the other arm is retrained to prevent turning of the body…would not the elbow of the Bong be trapped and the Tan be inneffective due to the forward sinking ?

How is the other arm being retained as to prevent turning?

This may leave the attacker open to be trapped (speculative).

Remember also, that by holding the opponent you are also being held. It would be interesting to see a person being held in such a way that they could not turn or move (short of being severly out weighed/weaker).

How is it that the bong is trapped and the taan ineffective?

If the bong is at the same level as the hand immobilizing the other arm it could be that the attack’s driving energy could be used to fuel a pak sau against the ‘holding’ arm, freeing it, allowing the turn to take place, and…

However, if the force is driving low, it could lead nicely into a kwan sau (depending, loosly, on how the ‘siezing’ is executed).

Now, of course, if the pressure is more toward the wrist than the elbow, it would render the tan ineffective, but that could be remedied by a step in the other direction possibly…and a kwan sau…

This could go on…and on…

What would be the best way to counter this type of Chi Sau attack ? I ask because i have tried to learn to use the Bong, but after numerous practice against this type of attack, i have failed to make the Bong work.

The key phrase in your statement is ‘make the bong work’. When you find someone who can show you the method of developing good WC structure, theory, and technique it should become apparent that WC techniques ‘happen’ they are not ‘made’ to happen. They are a result of an ingrained energy response to an energy input, and as pressure/energy changes dynamically so does the response.

It is possible that those who you have trained with are still dealing with ‘fixed’ positioning and static poses or simply not aware of all the possibilities that exist in such a situation.

All in all, chi sau is a good tool for learning these kinds of things.:wink:

24

I heard the Bamboo/Rattan methodology from a Leung Ting tape he made back in the 80’s, as soon as the energy is dissapated then the arm would slap back just like a bamboo recoiling when held back and let go…

James

25

AmanuJRY

How is the other arm being retained as to prevent turning?

By a Chin Na grab ie grab and twist thus locking that wrist so that i cannot ultilise that hand and at the same time they execute a sinking fist onto my Bong. So i cannot turn my body and i cannot adjust my Bong to bring my elbow around as my Bong has been sunk and locked. If i collapse it i would be hit, if i try to use a low Qwan then my attacker just pulls back with an open palm and strikes my lower gate or just bil sau to my upper gate.
And all the time my other arm is held in check by a lock forcing me to engage the attacking arm with my Bong without being able to turn my body (well depend on how strong my partner is)

This may leave the attacker open to be trapped (speculative)

The attack is a simultaneous Ying Yang so unfortunately i cannot do anything except work out how to nullify the attacking punch.

Remember also, that by holding the opponent you are also being held. It would be interesting to see a person being held in such a way that they could not turn or move (short of being severly out weighed/weaker)

They manage to hold by twisting my hand with a Chin Na grab and twist. As they play Chi Sau with their palms, so its easy for them to initiate a hold and harder for me to predict the attack as they can initiate without giving me any obvious energies.

How is it that the bong is trapped and the taan ineffective?

Well if i manage to drop into Taan quick enough to deflect usually with a weaker opponent then they hit me with wide elbow punch, and all this time my other hand is held in check. So i come back to my original question, how do i develop a Bong that can nulify an attack that is forward and sinking, and by nulify i want to attack back, cos the attackers elbow is always down and if i dont find a way to strike back, then get hit !

If the bong is at the same level as the hand immobilizing the other arm it could be that the attack’s driving energy could be used to fuel a pak sau against the ‘holding’ arm, freeing it, allowing the turn to take place, and…

When the attack happens, they use Gin Lik or explosive power downwards, and so my arms would most definately be at different levels so that i dont think i could use a Pak.
The pressure from the attacking fist starts at the wrist and angles slightly towards my elbow of the Bong, and i can try kwan with some added arching but then they just draw back with an attacking open palm.

Anyway i will try to visit Nick Forrer so hopefully he can demonstrate to me, as i know it must be frustrating trying to work out what i mean from word. But its certainly one of the major areas that i would like to master, inorder to convince me to completely switch over to Wing Chun which i admire a lot, due to its scientific approach.

SF

26

Shaolin fist sez:

By a Chin Na grab ie grab and twist thus locking that wrist so that i cannot ultilise that hand and at the same time they execute a sinking fist onto my Bong. So i cannot turn my body and i cannot adjust my Bong to bring my elbow around as my Bong has been sunk and locked. If i collapse it i would be hit, if i try to use a low Qwan then my attacker just pulls back with an open palm and strikes my lower gate or just bil sau to my upper gate.
And all the time my other arm is held in check by a lock forcing me to engage the attacking arm with my Bong without being able to turn my body (well depend on how strong my partner is)

((Good wing chun folks I know adjust to what is there including a lock or a chin na. Hunt 1 correctly pointed out that the bong is not just an arm technique- adjustment in the whole body is part of good wing chun.))

27

Shaolin Fist,

It’s unfortunate this is an internet forum, I would like to see/feel this attack executed. I can’t really accept that a person could be completely ‘imobilized’ by the grab, or that the grab could not be averted from the onset. Use of footwork/body could be an important factor in this. Also, please note that all my answers were of a ‘could/possibly/might’ nature and that I reserve it all as speculation without experiencing the attack myself.

Your best bet is to learn a good bong sau and good WC body mechanics and theory before trying to employ it against someone who is ‘well versed’ in another art.

Also, as chi sau is an exercise to develop WC attributes, there are ways of exploiting it, but this goes outside of useful training and into experimental work. Try seeing how likely it is that this other person will be able to execute the attack in a more sparring arrangement.

28

Originally posted by sihing
if one were to deflect at the elbow of Emin’s punch this would not happen, and he wouldn’t be able to go around it as easily

He wouldn’t need to go around it, because he’d be at a closer range, and thus, punching me very hard with his “rear” hand. :frowning:

(I’ve experienced this many times over the past decade when touching hands with him.)

-Lawrence

29

Originally posted by lawrenceofidaho
[B]He wouldn’t need to go around it, because he’d be at a closer range, and thus, punching me very hard with his “rear” hand. :frowning:

(I’ve experienced this many times over the past decade when touching hands with him.)

-Lawrence [/B]

He wouldn’t have time to go around it either or attack with the rear hand, as I would simultaneously be attacking also, and when applying pak sao to his elbow my movement would be to his blindside(flanking) thus being out of the way of the rear punch, while applying my own punch with the pak.

James

30

Originally posted by sihing
He wouldn’t have time to go around it either or attack with the rear hand, as I would simultaneously be attacking also, and when applying pak sao to his elbow my movement would be to his blindside(flanking) thus being out of the way of the rear punch, while applying my own punch with the pak.

Simultaneous attack?
Wow…I wish I would have thought of that… -I’m sure it would have been just that simple to defeat him if I’d tried it.
:stuck_out_tongue:
-Lawrence

31

Originally posted by Shaolin Fist
As they play Chi Sau with their palms, so its easy for them to initiate a hold and harder for me to predict the attack as they can initiate without giving me any obvious energies.
They’re cheating. :wink:

32

Originally posted by lawrenceofidaho
Simultaneous attack?
Wow…I wish I would have thought of that… -I’m sure it would have been just that simple to defeat him if I’d tried it.
:stuck_out_tongue:
-Lawrence

Lawrence,
When I look at clips, especially video’s where one is try to instruct and teach something I too look at it as a teacher, like I am seeing it in a class I am teaching. In the footage I have of Emin doing this very thing I understand the concept he is trying to convey but I do also see things that as a teacher I would correct or add onto in the technique if I saw a student in my class doing that same thing. Emin didn’t seem to have a problem correcting and putting down Ray’s Wing Chun when he did a seminar for him a few years back, so when Emin puts stuff out there then he should be prepared when people critique it and find things good about it and bad about it. I too see things in myself that need work when I see video of myself, that’s the great thing about video, is to use it as a tool to self correct or tweak certain things in your own movement or technique.

James

33

all the time my other arm is held in check by a lock forcing me to engage the attacking arm with my Bong without being able to turn my body

SF, sounds like you might want to work on countering locks. I know once a lock goes past the arm and takes someone out of center they are in trouble. One thing to check for is where you tense up when the lock is applied, if you can, find that part of yourself make it relax and move at an angle to break free. (I generally think of it as 90 degrees to the force, but that’s not really how it works). If you can stay loose then the lock will either not work or can be quickly countered.

I suggest doing some grab, lock, counter grab, lock drills slowly to start. With your focus on staying relaxed and deep in your center.