[QUOTE=xcakid;847457]OK, I will ask the experts here. Perhaps Mr Dugas can shed some light too.
What are the pros and cons of this type of training? We all know that if not done right it can be a detrement to you. But what other effects can it have short and long term? How does it affect the health of a martial artist overall considering it is done correctly?[/QUOTE]
There are some very nice pros the number one being you are carrying around a nice weapon that can never be taken from you unless someone hacks your hands off.
Carrying weapons can be illegal in some places and having the ability to defend yourself with your palms is not bad.
Also you will learn to control your mind, your health as well as learn to rid your body of excessive tension and learn to connect through your structure to the ground.
You can double your striking power through this not through hitting the bag, hitting the bag helps to condition the hands but you are learning to move through the correct structure and bring energy from the earth through you into someone else or something(bricks, etc…)
The cons are slight if you train correctly.
My teacher told me the worst thing for him was trying to pick up a paper clip off a freshly waxed linoleum floor. Too me that is what magnets are for.
You have to be careful with your kids, wives/husbands, and pets. You can hurt them without thinking once you have charged/trained your hands.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;847546]… Power is increased due to the fact that the strikes are “relaxed,” meaning the recruitment of protagonistic muscle groups, and the relaxing of antagonistic muscle groups. Combine that with the proper structures,body movement and you have Quite a synergystic approach.
It’s basic physiology… [/QUOTE]
Heh!
Somebody finally said it!
That concept has been a MAJOR focus of ALL my TCMA training for “a rather long time” now.
There are some very nice pros the number one being you are carrying around a nice weapon that can never be taken from you unless someone hacks your hands off.
I find comparing iron palm conditioned hands with illegal weapons, or for that matter, any real weapon to be a very serious stretch.
Also you will learn to control your mind, your health as well as learn to rid your body of excessive tension and learn to connect through your structure to the ground.
I see the standard quasi mysticism in here.
You can double your striking power through this not through hitting the bag, hitting the bag helps to condition the hands but you are learning to move through the correct structure and bring energy from the earth through you into someone else or something(bricks, etc…)
Again, zero proof of what doubling your striking power even means. Hitting the heavy bag in my view and that of what seems to be every contact sport athlete on the planet, is the only real way to learn to develop power.
To say that hitting the heavy bag does not use correct structure is false and borders on asianophilism.
You have to be careful with your kids, wives/husbands, and pets. You can hurt them without thinking once you have charged/trained your hands.
Sorry, but man, this comment actually borders on the retarded. Sorry to be so blunt but that has to be a joke.
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;847590]
Sorry, but man, this comment actually borders on the retarded. Sorry to be so blunt but that has to be a joke.[/QUOTE]
why do you say that? It’s like what broken fist said, post 3. He was hitting harder than he realized. It seems like a classic examply of not knowing your own strengths/limits. I’m kinda confused though, are you say IP has no use or that it doesn’t necessarily make you hit harder?
He has a pretty unique life history, he has done a lot of things. Through out it all, he continued his iron fist training…
With the credentials and accomplishments he has, im inclined to believe he continued his training with purpose and knowledge. He far out weighs most of us on here in regards to CMA training and knowledge.
Cons of IF training…Have you seen Pan Qingfu’s right hand??? Grotesque.
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;847590]Sorry, but man, this comment actually borders on the retarded. Sorry to be so blunt but that has to be a joke.[/QUOTE]
Would you find it “more believable” if I said that the conditioning “resets the default level of contact” that the conditioned limb uses for “a touch”?
This means that the “instinctive” touch/contact changes from a superficial/surface contact to an inch or more past “the surface”.
What Dale alludes to is that in certain circumstances you eventually will find it necessary to consciously control your touch.
It’s a little bit like being “a bull in a China Shop”.
Bones density does happen. The porous parts of the bone will fill in. Practicing incorrectly will be harmful. I know of one person who developed cataracts. Also internal damage to the organs can occur. Done correctly, to my knowledge, will not have harmful effects. Your hands will increase in thickness without losing dexterity. The main thing is to breathe correctly. Always breathe out when hitting and being relaxed when hitting. Like hitting with dead weight and no force. Very, very important to use Dit Da Jow. Even with correct breathing, etc. this will increase chi and blood circulation for healing while striking.
Black Jack have you ever trained in Iron Palm before? Have you met anyone who has trained this way? Why discredit something simply because some dude in a lab hasn’t come out with a report on it?
Test it out for yourself, you can get pretty good results within a month depending on how you train. Not sure if you’ll be able to break bricks within that time frame but your striking power will increase and you’ll notice that instead of making a huge movement you’ll only need half the distance to strike just as hard.
If not thats cool its your opinion and I’m not out to try and change it
[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;847610]Would you find it “more believable” if I said that the conditioning “resets the default level of contact” that the conditioned limb uses for “a touch”?
This means that the “instinctive” touch/contact changes from a superficial/surface contact to an inch or more past “the surface”.
What Dale alludes to is that in certain circumstances you eventually will find it necessary to consciously control your touch.
It’s a little bit like being “a bull in a China Shop”.[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of an interview I read with a leper. (Its not curable once you have it, but there are drugs that prevent it from getting worse or being contagious.) They said the biggest challenge is having to consiously grip things gently. The nerve damage made it so they couldnt tell how tightly they were gripping things and until they learned how to cope they were always breaking glasses by squuezing them. One guy said he had left permanent grip marks in his car`s steering wheel.
[QUOTE=Chosen-frozen;847666]Reminds me of an interview I read with a leper. (Its not curable once you have it, but there are drugs that prevent it from getting worse or being contagious.) They said the biggest challenge is having to consiously grip things gently. The nerve damage made it so they couldnt tell how tightly they were gripping things and until they learned how to cope they were always breaking glasses by squuezing them. One guy said he had left permanent grip marks in his car`s steering wheel.[/QUOTE]
Heh!
It’s not quite THAT bad… unless you’re training in one of the harder external types…
[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;847610]Would you find it “more believable” if I said that the conditioning “resets the default level of contact” that the conditioned limb uses for “a touch”?
This means that the “instinctive” touch/contact changes from a superficial/surface contact to an inch or more past “the surface”.
What Dale alludes to is that in certain circumstances you eventually will find it necessary to consciously control your touch.
It’s a little bit like being “a bull in a China Shop”.[/QUOTE]
As a JMA I approached IP with a critical eye, to say the least, hence the X-rays and such.
Fact is it works, on a variety of levels as it has been touched on here.
Certainly one can’t compare it to carrying around brass knuckles, though I have felt the hands of some and they were “getting there”, LOL !
And certainly without a delivery platform its is borderline uselss.
Nevertheless, the conditioning works.
If you don’t do it with correct instruction and method, and if you think that just simply repetitively striking things is the method, then you will damage yourself and you will be unfit in your auytumn years and likely deformed on some level.
If you receive correct instruction and carry out the method properly, you will be fine and you will not experience any ill side effects.
In young men, side effects are difficult to spot, but poor kungfu practice can be seen readily in the middle aged in their overall energy and physique.
people who practice incorrectly are easy to see at this stage in their life, easy to spot and frankly, in the kungfu world, the appear to be a lot. lol
having said that, don’t practice ip or iv/is/ib without absolutely verifiable correct instruction. If you don’t do your due diligence, then you deserve the pain and suffering you will face for incorrect practice. Maybe you’ll find your kungfu there?
Remeber, I never said “hand conditioning” was not important. Though, the realm of absurdness that comes with some of these comments is just plain silly, and a good deal of it I bet is based on blind exceptance based on teacher whorship and it gets even more funky when things like chi and health benefits are brought up without ANY empircal proof to back up the statement.
If you want to hit hard, you better condition your strikes, but a large part of this hand conditioning does not actually involve the hands themselves. Rather it is wrist conditioning that is important.
Punching the heavy bag is the closet you can come to punching another human being without hitting someone, that and the wonderfull BOB dummy, and it is a key element along with wrist freeweight workouts.
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;847732]Remeber, I never said “hand conditioning” was not important. Though, the realm of absurdness that comes with some of these comments is just plain silly, and a good deal of it I bet is based on blind exceptance based on teacher whorship and it gets even more funky when things like chi and health benefits are brought up without ANY empircal proof to back up the statement.
If you want to hit hard, you better condition your strikes, but a large part of this hand conditioning does not actually involve the hands themselves. Rather it is wrist conditioning that is important.
Punching the heavy bag is the closet you can come to punching another human being without hitting someone, that and the wonderfull BOB dummy, and it is a key element along with wrist freeweight workouts.[/QUOTE]
First off, which one of my comments or views has struck you as absurd?
Second, wrist conditioning is part of IP training.
Third, IP is done to compliment and not exclude Bag work and things of that nature, matter of fact, the “hanging IP Bag” is a great tool for closed fisted and pointed knuckle strikes.
Its smaller in size than a typicla HB, and the filling is more “substancial” than rags and such you find in a typical IP bag, think of it as an advanced HB and NO, we don’t use the IP bag and hang it up, its a special bag, think about 1/4 of the length and about 10" -12" in Dia.
First off, which one of my comments or views has struck you as absurd?
I was not picking on you, ya clown rapist:D
Though, to say Fact is it works, on a variety of levels as it has been touched on here, I find a bit off base, as nothing has really been shown as a fact here, if you are to take the word fact as it really means.
When people talk about how you have to be carefull around loved ones, how it helps inner health, how it is close to carrying a weapon, blablabla…then yeah I find those comments to be a little out their.
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;847743]I was not picking on you, ya clown rapist:D
Though, to say Fact is it works, on a variety of levels as it has been touched on here, I find a bit off base, as nothing has really been shown as a fact here, if you are to take the word fact as it really means.
When people talk about how you have to be carefull around loved ones, how it helps inner health, how it is close to carrying a weapon, blablabla…then yeah I find those comments to be a little out their.[/QUOTE]
Not sure how you found out about my past in the circus…
Anyways.
I can’t comment on the inner health and chi stuff, I train to fight.
But I can say that after starting IP I have been more “heavy handed” on my sparring partners when demoing stuff, giving them bruises on their arms and bodies from what I though were “love taps” IE: Shard enough to work, not hard enough to leave a mark.
the reason is assume is because of the combination of being more “dead handed” and what Baxierboxer wrote.
