Hey is Wing Lam’s jow pretty weaksauce? I used it every day for years and never noticed a difference in bruise healing time vs. not using jow.
This was 13 or 14 years ago if that matters.
[QUOTE=IronFist;1194785]…
There’s also something similar called a “James Bond shower.”[/QUOTE]
“The Man with the Golden Shower”…:eek:
Coming to theaters near you…
[QUOTE=IronFist;1194788]Hey is Wing Lam’s jow pretty weaksauce? I used it every day for years and never noticed a difference in bruise healing time vs. not using jow.
This was 13 or 14 years ago if that matters.[/QUOTE]
His regular jow is watered down, he also sells something he calls triple strength which is the regular strength jow to most of us.
Hence I make mine strong and you will notice the difference in a few days.
[QUOTE=IronFist;1194787]Oh, according to western science, heat is pro-inflammatory, so you probably don’t want to soak your hands in hot water after training. I know it sounds like a good idea, to increase the blood flow, but it will also increase inflammation which will lead to damage and incomplete healing over time.
Icing for less than 20 minutes is anti-inflammatory.
I’d probably just stick with the jow, though.
I did see a website in the late 90s that recommended holding your hands under hot running water for a few minutes after training iron palm instead of using jow. That sounds like a bad idea.
But heat before a workout is fine, especially if you are “cold,” which can lead to injuries.
I’m just mentioning this in case someone goes “I don’t have any jow, jow increases blood flow, hot water increases blood flow, therefore I will just use hot water and skip the jow.”[/QUOTE]
Icing is mostly used for the injuries in bigger muscles which have a big blood supply. However in Iron palm icing is more likely to cause damage to the tendons and the ligaments which don’t have a good blood circulation to begin with. A little bit of inflammation is actually a part of the healing process in our bodies and a better blood flow can speed up the healing as well as making the structure stronger. Icing on the other hand interrupts this natural process and I think shouldn’t be used for that area after a normal iron palm routine.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1194824]Icing is mostly used for the injuries in bigger muscles which have a big blood supply. However in Iron palm icing is more likely to cause damage to the tendons and the ligaments which don’t have a good blood circulation to begin with. A little bit of inflammation is actually a part of the healing process in our bodies and a better blood flow can speed up the healing as well as making the structure stronger. Icing on the other hand interrupts this natural process and I think shouldn’t be used for that area after a normal iron palm routine.[/QUOTE]
I’ve heard of ice dipping being used to treat wrist and finger tendonitis from guitar playing.
Ice dipping is taking a bowl of almost freezing water, dipping your hand (or elbow, or whatever body part) in it for 10 seconds and then removing it. This is repeated 10 times over 2 hours (so every 12 and a half minutes).
I don’t think heat or ice should be used after iron palm, though. I mean if you get to the point where you’re having that sort of injury, you’re probably doing iron palm wrong, anyway.
You’re right that inflammation is part of the healing process, but when it gets out of control it leads to long term injury.
I used to always use a heating pad on injuries. What a huge mistake lol. But it feels good in the short term so you think hey, it’s doing good!
I’ve heard heating is ok as long as you finish with ice.
[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1194807]His regular jow is watered down, he also sells something he calls triple strength which is the regular strength jow to most of us.
Hence I make mine strong and you will notice the difference in a few days.[/QUOTE]
I think I still have a bottle of his jow from 12 years ago that is unopened. It still has some herbs sitting at the bottom. Would it be super strong by now?
I wasn’t saving it or anything, I just stopped training in a way that required jow and happened to have a bottle left over, which I forgot about, and then found the other day. It was in the basement so it’s been in a cool, dark place the entire time.
His jow is in plastic bottles. I’ve heard that’s bad because stuff can be leached from the plastic or whatever. Any truth to that?
Depends on the quality of the plastic.
Many liquors are stored in plastic these days.
Though if its that old its probably full of BPA, so I would discard it.
[QUOTE=PlumDragon;1193616]1. What regimen do you start your new students with?
Slapping the bag with 3-4 different hand formations. Repetitions and rate of progression are not fixed but depend on the person. I start my students on gravel. I teach the qigong routines but stress that I feel the qigong is the least important part of the training.
-
Once they’ve achieved proficiency at that regimen what do you progress them to?
Steel shot bag after a couple months on gravel, initially lightly, and then with some power so that the student can learn the power generation. Its at this point I start working with methods of slapping concrete if the student wants to get into breaking. -
Approximately how long does #1 usually take
#1 takes very little time; 3 months maximum. -
What are the next levels you progress them to?
There are a variety of other types of training ranging from benign to IMO, dangerous, most of which are a bit more in depth to explain. Wall bags, open medium, gripping, tension drills, etc etc…Most of this has to do with creativity, and anyone can come up with a new spin on training that is useful since its not been done previously. -
Are there any supplementary exercises you usually get the. To do besides hitting the canvas bags (grip exercises, forearm strengthening etc.)?
To be clear: Iron palm IS one of the supplementary exercises, along with all that stuff you mentioned–None of it has anything to do with fighting–its just conditioning. Just because you break stuff or hit hard or have a strong grip or whatever doesnt mean you can apply it under pressure, and it certainly doesnt mean you know the first thing about fighting. Its just supplementary work. -
Do you personally think jow is necessary or important?
The short answer: YES! Anyone who has experimented on a steel shot bag with and without jow knows this.
The more thorough answer is, it really depends on what youre doing: If youre just dropping your hand lightly on a rice bag, I really dont think its necessary although it would still be helpful. However, if youre really wanting to push yourself and get the most out of the training, then jow is a no-brainer and a very important necessity for the health of your hands. -
Do you practice breaking? If yes when and why?
Yes, I practice breaking, although its been nearly a year since Ive really broke anything. Only reason why is that I enjoy breaking, its a nice feeling to successfully make a difficult break, because it really does require a lot of conditioning and power to be able to do some breaks. With that said, it really doesnt have anything to do with fighting.
For me, iron palm is just something I do to bide my time when I dont have a training partner. As Ive said before, the best fighters Ive ever met have done NO conditioning work at all, save for what they get from actually training under pressure. No bag strikes, no shin conditioning, etc etc. They just worked on fighting so thats what they got good at…[/QUOTE]
1: What regimen do you start your new students with?
Everyone from beginner to adavnced starts off with Mung Bean. Mung Bean can last anywhere from 3 months to a year depending on how much hitting you are doing (1 time per day vs 3 times per day). Also Mung Beans are hit everyday as a warm up to Gravel and Steel Shot. For advanced student Mung Beans are hit for 2-3 minutes for warming up.
There is a Qi Gong Program I use. Beginners start off with breathing in and out of the nose. Moving onto more in depth Qi Gong as they progress in their IP.
2: Once they’ve achieved proficiency at that regimen what do you progress them to? How long does each level take?
Mung Bean for up to year. Then moving onto to Gravel for 1-2 more years. Then Steel Shot.
3: Do you personally think jow is necessary or important?
Jow is very imortant thruought your Iron Palm training. For beginners; Jow heals bruises, improves bloodflow. For intermediate; Jow thickens skin, muscle, ligaments and tendons. For advanced students; Jow improves blood, Qi and energy to the hands.
4: Do you practice breaking? If yes when and why?
No I do Not practice breaking. I have in the past broke some 2" cinder blocks but never really focused on it. However, it is a good way to incease your skill at delivering a IP slap with correct structure and power.
In the end… IP for me is a long term conditioning method that goes along with your training. As you progress in your chosen Martial Art, your Iron Palm progresses as well. There are no short cuts in IP, only slow consistant progression. Although many of us have different methods… none are right or wrong, just different means to the same end.
ginosifu
Are there pre-set testing standards to mark completion of each level of training IP?
example: Breaking Materials, how they progressively change in density and or purpose.
[QUOTE=ngokfei;1248187]Are there pre-set testing standards to mark completion of each level of training IP?
example: Breaking Materials, how they progressively change in density and or purpose.[/QUOTE]
Not really, at least with regards to testing. The thing is, it’s a personal method of conditioning ones hands to be able to deliver hard strikes without suffering damage. The idea behind this skill, other to create heavy hands and hard strikes, is to be able to focus the strike in order to deliver damage to internal organs. It’s not a style or system but rather a skill learned using mostly set training methods that vary slightly from school to school. Iron Body is the same type of training and to my knowledge there’s not a test for it either. You just do the training.
I personally know of three different ways to train Iron Palm and there isn’t a test for any of them. One is the bucket of sand mixed with Dit Da Jow method where you stand in horse stance facing the bucket. Each set consists of three movements. Heaven - palms up, push into sand; Earth - palms down, push into sand; Tiger - take handful of sand, trying to squeeze sand out of hands, slowly turn palms up. Second is the more well known method where you strike an IP bag filled with mung beans for a few months to a year, then river pebbles or gravel for a few months to a year, then steel shot after warming up with mung beans. Third is not well known, but is actually my favorite, where you kneel in a warriors posture with a board on each side on the ground next to you. On the board is attached a large natural sponge. You practice by striking straight down at the board through the sponge using various animal hand postures while keeping your gaze straight ahead. With each method you should use Dit Da Jow before during and after the training. You can do it without the Jow but you should be very careful, go slow, and give yourself more time to heal between training sessions and be sure to massage the hands very well to keep the blood flowing. Also, in the beginning stages of IP training you are supposed to practice a strict diet and do without sexual release for 100 days. Some methods are only 6 weeks of this abstinence. There are other rules to the training but that’s basically it in a nutshell.
I don’t practice breaking so maybe one of the other Iron Palm practitioners out there can weigh in on that part of the training.
[QUOTE=ngokfei;1248187]Are there pre-set testing standards to mark completion of each level of training IP?
example: Breaking Materials, how they progressively change in density and or purpose.[/QUOTE]
…
yes
[QUOTE=IronWeasel;1248194]…
yes[/QUOTE]
I get the reason for the short answer, it’s sort of amusing, but to help those who don’t have testing requirements in Iron Palm understand please share. What kind of testing is involved in your IP training? Thanks in advance!
BTW, I’m not trying to pick or open the conversation up for smarmy (new favorite word I learned from DJ :D) remarks. I’m just curious.
[QUOTE=GoldenBrain;1248199]I get the reason for the short answer, it’s sort of amusing, but to help those who don’t have testing requirements in Iron Palm understand please share. What kind of testing is involved in your IP training? Thanks in advance!
BTW, I’m not trying to pick or open the conversation up for smarmy (new favorite word I learned from DJ :D) remarks. I’m just curious.[/QUOTE]
Well…
The Cliffs Notes’ version is:
Medicine.
Get proper IP medicine from a reliable source.
Brew your medicine and bring in a sample after soaking for 12 weeks for inspection.
Training advancement.
The use of mung beans or other materials that are softer than lead or steel, should only last a month or three. These materials serve to callous the surface of the hands and to strengthen soft tissues. both processes happen fairly quickly, and very little bone changes will occur with the striking of these materials.
If you have strong hands, work as a laborer or do hvy bag work, you may opt to skip this stage of training.
Steel shot.
Easier on the hand than lead shot. It’s best to begin the iron palm striking using this material. Once you have been striking for a few weeks, the teacher will observe your regimen for review and critique.
Continue daily regimen for two years.
After two years your training is considered complete at that level. You will be expected to break (without spacers) multiple 2" blocks in accordance with your rank and time in the school. Usually 4" is the minimum, and easily attainable with or without hand conditioning. I believe the old rank chart was (minimum number of blocks):
4" green belt
6" brown belt
8" black belt
so…all of this was the first level of hand training. The exercises, details, breathing, etc has been omitted for brevity.
After that:
Level 2: Continue daily striking using lead shot. Lead does not ‘give’ as much as steel, therefore has more of a direct effect on the bone. Ie…more damage. Bad for you unless you have already had some training.
Number of blocks?
10" no spacers
up to 16" no spacers. (Only two people have done 16" that I know of)
Level 3: Poison hand.
If you are ready for this, then you probably already know the herbs and protocol. Or who to get them from.
Excellent, thanks IronWeasel! I have another question, if you don’t mind. Does your style require these levels of Iron Palm to advance to each belt level, or are these ranks in Iron Palm as it’s own style?
Sorry for bugging you with these questions. The system I study is a mix of a bunch of styles including some outside of CMA, with the core being Southern 5 Animal Sil Lum. Since it’s my only experience with CMA I find myself learning a lot on this forum about how others do things, especially in regards to ranking and various curriculums.
[QUOTE=GoldenBrain;1248224]Excellent, thanks IronWeasel! I have another question, if you don’t mind. Does your style require these levels of Iron Palm to advance to each belt level, or are these ranks in Iron Palm as it’s own style?
Sorry for bugging you with these questions. The system I study is a mix of a bunch of styles including some outside of CMA, with the core being Southern 5 Animal Sil Lum. Since it’s my only experience with CMA I find myself learning a lot on this forum about how others do things, especially in regards to ranking and various curriculums.[/QUOTE]
Well, Ip isn’t a style, it’s a form of conditioning.
Iron Palm OR Iron Body is required for black sash. Choose one.
A third of the student body have done both.
[QUOTE=IronWeasel;1248225]Well, Ip isn’t a style, it’s a form of conditioning.
Iron Palm OR Iron Body is required for black sash. Choose one.
A third of the student body have done both.[/QUOTE]
The only problem I had is that it seems to take up so much time doing both for me. I was following the wing lam method, from the DVD I think I’m going to pick Iron body back up and omit the body exercises and stick to the hitting portion as that’s the part that seems to actually induce the conditioning. With both on top of regular exercise it really takes up too much time.
[QUOTE=IronWeasel;1248225]Well, Ip isn’t a style, it’s a form of conditioning.
Iron Palm OR Iron Body is required for black sash. Choose one.
A third of the student body have done both.[/QUOTE]
Cool. I’m on the same page with you about it being a form of conditioning rather than a style. I thought that was how you viewed it, but I just wanted to be sure I understood. I like how it’s a requirement to advance. Both IP and IB are part of our system with IB being part of the core conditioning program and IP being optional. Neither are formally part of the belt tests but instead students are assessed and coached on either or both as they progress.
[QUOTE=IronWeasel;1248225]yes[/QUOTE]
Do you belong to Gene Chicoine’s line?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1248231]Do you belong to Gene Chicoine’s line?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2hCsCRE14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM2YYKSy7io&feature=youtu.be[/QUOTE]
Yep, that’s us.
[QUOTE=Raipizo;1248228]The only problem I had is that it seems to take up so much time doing both for me. I was following the wing lam method, from the DVD I think I’m going to pick Iron body back up and omit the body exercises and stick to the hitting portion as that’s the part that seems to actually induce the conditioning. With both on top of regular exercise it really takes up too much time.[/QUOTE]
I have always wanted to do the Body, but it’s a huge time commitment.
With a career and teenagers…it will stay on my list of future endeavors for a little longer.