Iron palm/body questions

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1188891]Are you saying that you cannot use your “palm edge” to strike on your opponent’s head/face/ nose/neck in the ground game? I didn’t know that restriction.[/quote]

I don’t see a lot of palm strikes in MMA. Usually it’s fists. Sure there are some knife edges here and there and Sakuraba style claps to the head (I think it was him, I don’t remember for sure).

99% of it is fist, though.

The palm edge striking is quite useful. It can do what a fist can’t do for you. If you have artistic on your finger joints, the plam striking may be the only striking weapon that you have left through your old age.

I never said palm strikes weren’t effective. I just said you don’t see them very often in MMA.

Punching has a better range (approximately one palm length more range)

And I still maintain a closed fist is instinctive.

And with a clenched fist, more power can be generated through the process of irradiation(?) than with an open fist. This is where the TCMAists may talk about “soft fists” and punching while holding an egg in your hand without breaking it and other nonsense. More tension = more power. Period. “Tension” has nothing to do with speed, btw. Sorry, I’m trying to anticipate all of the responses that this is going to get, and I’m pretty sure “but too much tension makes you slow because your muscles work against each other” is going to be one of them. It’s nonsense. No one has that problem because it’s not even a physiological issue. It’s just leftover from the whole “weights/muscles are bad” silliness from a few decades ago. It’s an old belief that won’t die. It’s kind of like spot reduction in BBing. Some people still believe that situps will make your waist smaller.

The point is, if you are going to be doing palm striking, you will be able to withstand more damage if you do IP than if you don’t.

If you are going to be getting hit in the shin, you’ll be able to withstand more damage if you do iron shin training from IB, or something roughly equivalent like kicking a heavy bag, Muay Thai sparring, etc. This is all real and can be explained with science. No mysticism, no nonsense.

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[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890]I’ve done iron body (forearm and shin) and have empirical evidence that it works. That was 10+ years ago, though.[/quote]
Single case study isn’t even close to empirical evidence. You either need peer reviewed empirical research or multiple case study examples as in mine of muay Thai and mma fighters not needing to do iron body or palm and still being better conditioned than the iron folks.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890]That doesn’t make sense. IP and IB aren’t fighting styles. MMA and Muay Thai guys get good body conditioning from their training. [/quote]

But that’s the point. There are training methods which allow you to practice combative skills while getting the same or better conditioning and based on the evidence I’d bet on the latter.

As for them not being fighting styles I don’t care. If they had any value over the methods being used they’d be picked up by every pro fighter in a heartbeat.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890] Some people don’t have access to that and may do IB in the meantime.[/quote]
And yet there are still better things for them to spend their time on like physical conditioning through weights, cardio, plyometrics, etc.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890]Most MMA events don’t have palm strikes so I don’t know about IP.[/quote]
Look up pancrase. Only open handed strikes to the head and Bas Rutten never did any special conditioning like iron palm. Just bag work, pad work, and sparring.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890]Maybe the person just wants to break bricks as a skill. That’s cool. To each his own.[/quote]
Then I rate that up with calligraphy as far as being a martial skill. I’m talking about martial arts and training to fight. Anything else is a waste of my time.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890]Sure they are. When I was doing iron forearm and iron shin, I could deliver and accept hard strikes without pain.[/quote]
And I can do it just from sparring three times a week. I’m getting fight training and conditioning so efficiency wise I’m getting a better deal.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890]That’s not to say I might not have gotten the same level of conditioning if I was training MMA at the time. I’m only saying that what I did worked as far as forearm and shin conditioning is concerned.

IP/IB don’t claim to make effective fighters. They claim to condition the body to deliver and accept blows without damage. And they do that.[/quote]
Again I’d like some empirical research, not single case studies of “I did it and it worked!” because that’s absolutely worthless.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890]IB is just one form of body conditioning. Getting punched during sparring by your MMA training partner will probably have a similar effect as hitting yourself with iron body bags. Different path, same goal.[/quote]
And again that would be a more time effective, and apparently based on the evidence at hand, more effective way of doing it.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890]Now, if a style claims that it makes effective fighters, then by all means apply your logic to it. If a style has no champion fighters in MMA venues, doesn’t train against resisting opponents, etc., then it’s probably not a very effective style. But IP and IB are not fighting styles.[/quote]
But again if they did what they claim to do well enough to be bothered with every pro fighter would jump on it. Conditioning is a part of fighting.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890]Wolff’s law (as far as bone conditioning goes. I’m not talking about the other stuff).[/quote]
Continually citing that as validation for iron conditioning is like saying you have a drug that worked in simulation but rather than doing clinical trials you’re just going to start distribution.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1188890]IP and IB do condition the body. They don’t make you a great fighter, they just allow you to deliver harder strikes without pain and with a reduced risk of taking damage yourself. And that’s all the claim to do.[/quote]
And again I see no evidence that they can do what they claim to or do it significantly better than training methods currently in use by most fighters.

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Good posts IF and Bacon. There’s a lot of merit to what you’re saying. I definitely agree that if somebody is only conditioning IB and not practicing actual fighting technique, they will be a worse fighter than somebody who is training to fight. But to IF’s point, that’s because IB is a form of conditioning to enhance the technique, not the technique itself.

Being a science guy, I’m with Bacon in that I’d love to see some empirical studies done in an actual IB regimen. I think we all would. However I don’t see that happening any time soon. The closest thing we have is evidence of Wolff’s law. So in the mean time for those looking for evidence, you’ll have to find somebody who has conditioned for 5, 10, 20+ years and cross hands with them. Not to see if you can best them in a fight, but rather to see how it feels when you get blocked by them or they attack you. Report back here when you’ve done that.

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My door is always open.

Come gear up and get hit.

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[QUOTE=Bacon;1188886]No my beef is that you can do other things that will condition AND increase combative skill. If you do 15 minutes of iron palm that Time could be better spent elsewhere unless you have empirical evidence to the contrary.

You show me IP/IB practitioners who have won in Muay Thai or MMA, and I don’t mean any folks who’ve cross trained.

no I just have a huge dislike for folks who claim ‘x’ works when no practitioners of ‘x’ have ever won any competition of note.

I like, sanda and shuai jiao because their training clearly works and that is because it is always based on effective technique and training against resistant opponents.
Even wing chun and mantis because they can be effective when they fulfill the above two conditions.

There just isn’t any evidence that iron palm or iron body as trained in CMAs is necessary or beneficial to the development of a fighter.[/QUOTE]

#1. What if I have time to spar, hit the heavy bags etc and still have time to do other conditioning?

#2. I do not hold MMA and Muay Thai as the end all to beat all. They are not my standard to hold to. They are just Martial Sports… that’s all.

#3. I have trained and fought in Shuai Chiao and San Shou and won! and I still had time to do other conditioning methods such as IP.

#4. There is no empirical evidence to show that push ups help Martial Arts but most all MA still do them.

Just because you do not like Ip or IB does not mean they do not work or a value for fighters. Goofballs like you, who ask stupid questions like these get to spar me in class. Now I don’t kill or hurt anyone, but I will let feel a slap and they all shut up after that. Since you are not going to come to my school and challenge me… I will have to finish by saying.

Predjudice Meatheads like you that think that MMA / Muay Thai are the standard to hold all MA to are only hurting yourselves.

ginosifu

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Supplementary training is just that, supplementary and should NOT take away from any direct combat work because it does NOT take the place of it.
That is like saying that weight training shouldn’t be done because a fighter could be fighting training fighting which is directly more applicable.
IH and IB work is done by fighters on a regular basis, they just don’t call it that.
Whenever a boxer trains to take a shot, it is IB work and everything a boxer hist the bag its IH work.
It just a TYPE of IB and IH work.
That TCMA use a specific type of SUPPLEMENTARY IH work that goes beyond the standard is something that is a matter of tradition for them.
Can a modern pro fighter get benefits from it? sure, but there is a time frame that MUST be applied to PRO fighters and where do they have the time to ADD an extra 30-45 min minimum? typically they don’t.
They ALREADY get A LOT of fist conditioning, far more than the recreational MA.
A boxer doing 15 rounds on a HB, every day gets all the “IH” work he needs.

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[QUOTE=Bacon;1188897]Single case study isn’t even close to empirical evidence. You either need peer reviewed empirical research or multiple case study examples as in mine of muay Thai and mma fighters not needing to do iron body or palm and still being better conditioned than the iron folks.[/quote]

Why are you saying MMA guys are “better” conditioned? How do you know? Have you seen “peer reviewed empirical research”? Where is your “peer reviewed empirical research” that MMA conditioning “works”?

Body conditioning is body conditioning. If you don’t think that spending some time doing kung fu style body conditioning is a good use of your time, then don’t do it and get your body conditioning some other way. It’s really all the same in the end.

But that’s the point. There are training methods which allow you to practice combative skills while getting the same or better conditioning and based on the evidence I’d bet on the latter.

Cuz everyone is exactly the same and some people might not want/need supplementary conditioning :rolleyes:

As for them not being fighting styles I don’t care. If they had any value over the methods being used they’d be picked up by every pro fighter in a heartbeat.

They’re not fighting styles.

You’re applying the wrong logic here.

Anyway, most MMA guys probably don’t do kung fu style IB. They probably don’t need to because, like you said, they get conditioning from their training already.

But if some dude practicing kung fu at home wants to do IB training, who cares? If he trains it correctly it will help him take strikes better. He probably doesn’t have an MMA partner to train with and get his conditioning that way.

And yet there are still better things for them to spend their time on like physical conditioning through weights, cardio, plyometrics, etc.

Those things do not allow you to block kicks with your shins without pain. They have different goals. But yeah, those things are important for a fighter, too.

Look up pancrase. Only open handed strikes to the head and Bas Rutten never did any special conditioning like iron palm. Just bag work, pad work, and sparring.

Ok. I said “most MMA events”. Listing one that uses open hand strikes doesn’t disprove anything.

Then I rate that up with calligraphy as far as being a martial skill. I’m talking about martial arts and training to fight. Anything else is a waste of my time.

Then don’t do it. It’s not like anyone is forcing you to.

And I can do it just from sparring three times a week. I’m getting fight training and conditioning so efficiency wise I’m getting a better deal.

Then train that way. Who cares dude?

Again I’d like some empirical research, not single case studies of “I did it and it worked!” because that’s absolutely worthless.

What part are you disagreeing with? That bones get denser through impact? Or that repetitive striking increases one’s tolerance to pain?

But again if they did what they claim to do well enough to be bothered with every pro fighter would jump on it. Conditioning is a part of fighting.

Holy cow you are dense. IB/IP conditioning is supplemental. It’s not a fighting style. If you don’t think you are lacking in the ability to strike with an open hand or take shots without damage, then you don’t need to do them. No one said IB/IP makes you a super unbeatable mega ninja fighter. They just cause your body to adapt in a certain way, like anything else.

And again I see no evidence that they can do what they claim to or do it significantly better than training methods currently in use by most fighters.

No one is claiming that’s the case.

It’s never been anything more than supplementary conditioning.

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DO you guys remember that chinese youtube video where the iron arm guy was smashing his arm against the CORNER of a brick wall?
Remember the x-rays they took of his arm that showed considerable thickness of the forearm bone?

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1188914]DO you guys remember that chinese youtube video where the iron arm guy was smashing his arm against the CORNER of a brick wall?
Remember the x-rays they took of his arm that showed considerable thickness of the forearm bone?[/QUOTE]

I never saw those but I think that would be the way to go…looking at x-rays. That would match up with the current theory of Wolff’s law and the benefit from IB.

It would be very hard to quantify what allows you to endure strikes with less pain so an objective “increases bone density by X%” statement would most likely be the best you could get.

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[QUOTE=Empty_Cup;1188921]I never saw those but I think that would be the way to go…looking at x-rays. That would match up with the current theory of Wolff’s law and the benefit from IB.

It would be very hard to quantify what allows you to endure strikes with less pain so an objective “increases bone density by X%” statement would most likely be the best you could get.[/QUOTE]

Before I started IP years ago, I had my finger dislocated and since I put it back myself, I went to the docs to make sure it was “fitting ok” and he ordered a x-ray and it was fine.
About 3 or 4 years after I started IP I asked to get a x-ray of that hand again, to compare the bone density ( I told the doc that I wanted to do that because I had been feeling some “stiffness and pain” in my hand :wink: ), I saw the x-ray with the technician and asked him if he noticed any difference comparing one x-ray with the other and he said that the finger in question was just fine, a bit “denser” around the joint but that was to be expected. I asked about the bones of the rest of the hand and he said that all seemed normal.
I asked if he noticed any density difference in the bones comparing x-rays and he said there was some difference but nothing I should be worried about.
I didn’t wanna press it because I didn’t want them to know the real reason behind the x-ray, but I am curious as to what it would look like now.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1188938]Before I started IP years ago, I had my finger dislocated and since I put it back myself, I went to the docs to make sure it was “fitting ok” and he ordered a x-ray and it was fine.
About 3 or 4 years after I started IP I asked to get a x-ray of that hand again, to compare the bone density ( I told the doc that I wanted to do that because I had been feeling some “stiffness and pain” in my hand :wink: ), I saw the x-ray with the technician and asked him if he noticed any difference comparing one x-ray with the other and he said that the finger in question was just fine, a bit “denser” around the joint but that was to be expected. I asked about the bones of the rest of the hand and he said that all seemed normal.
I asked if he noticed any density difference in the bones comparing x-rays and he said there was some difference but nothing I should be worried about.
I didn’t wanna press it because I didn’t want them to know the real reason behind the x-ray, but I am curious as to what it would look like now.[/QUOTE]

Oh boy…no wonder our health care system is out of control :rolleyes::smiley:

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[QUOTE=Empty_Cup;1188948]Oh boy…no wonder our health care system is out of control :rolleyes::D[/QUOTE]

Be nice, LOL !!

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Iron Body is a term for conditioning.

That conditioning follows a regimen. It is inclusive of a few different exercises and some massage and some impact work and a few other things.

I would say that it is achieved in other ways as far as fighting goes.

For instance, medicine ball drops on a boxers torso is very similar. The hand soaking, the fist push ups, the tense ups and body shots etc etc.

These all condition a regular boxer in a similar process to that which is found in Iron Body.

Iron body has physical exercises, qigong and percussive striking to the body.

I think people might get tripped up by the cultural references more than they will the exercise. It is a conditioning regime. If you think it’s a magic trick, then you fail at the onset of trying to discuss these things.

I don’t see the difference between percussive work in any martial art when it comes to body conditioning. Iron body is the same thing. Iron Palm too. It’s not rocket surgery. lol it is slow progressive conditioning of the body to aid in recovery from force and to generally toughen the person who practices. It is an aid to training and not fighting. Same as weight lifting is an aid to building strength to fight, but weightlifting itself will not make you a better fighter.

I think most people just struggle with the cultural frame of reference and have intellectual difficulty understanding how parallel discovery can occur seeing as we all have the same body form etc.

The Chinese tend to be more poetic about it in that respect. It’s good and valid though.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1188981]I think most people just struggle with the cultural frame of reference [/QUOTE]

I also think a lot of ‘modern’ martial artists would be suprised at how similar conditioning they currently do is to that of chinese body conditioning methods.

it’s willful ignorance most of the time. :rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1188981]Iron Body is a term for conditioning.[/QUOTE]

One of my students got into a fight and was cut by knife badly. He lost faith in my system. He went to learn “iron vest” which he believed he would never be cut by knife again.

To somebody, iron body is more than just conditioning. It’s a bulletproof vest.

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Iron Vest does not make your body able to withstand knives.

Anyone who thinks that is not using their brain.

It does help you take more abuse than normal untrained people.

It is not magic.

It is hard work to train the fascia and tissues of the body in order to take abuse.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1188998]One of my students got into a fight and was cut by knife badly. He lost faith in my system. He went to learn “iron vest” which he believed he would never be cut by knife again.

To somebody, iron body is more than just conditioning. It’s a bulletproof vest.[/QUOTE]

The boxer rebellion of 1901 proved that Iron Body does not work against metal (bullets fired from guns). You can make your body tougher thru proper exercises, but knives you must follow Mr. Miyagi (No be dare).

ginosifu

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Iron Body Questions?

What is Iron Body, How do you develop it in wing chun or any other fighting systems you tried out…

In my lineage we basically use dit da jow and lots of hard hitting sparring to the body.

there are other methods we neglected…Like trading punches & kicks and drop fall techniques. In boxing they use a medicine ball that you practice having dropped on you. Some Muay Thai guys use a small wood beam an drop it on their chin to make their chin more conditioned over time.

What do you do?

AS for chi kung. I dont believe chi gung alone will make you super conditioned or super strong..chi gung is basically to heal you and increase blood circulation for the abuse your body endures an to speed up recover for muscle break down and tissue injuries. Basically Chi Gung heals your muscles, tissue, ligaments and skin…The more you use your hand it gets callous the same with other things you do to body…chi gung and dit da jow are for healing and recovery!

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Iron Palm and Fist allows you to strike harder areas of the body with more force ie the head.

If a child who never punched anything hit a punching bag full force he would hurt his hands, knuckles and wrist. But a man who has never done any conditioning would also feel the same pain as that child. By hitting a heavy bag or wall bag or makiwara you build power and conditioning. Boxers use medicine balls to conditioned their stomachs for heavy blows. Professionals also do 1000 sit ups daily to tighten those muslces to advoid internal damage…a strong enough boxer can break ribs or cause internal bleeding like a bruise kidney even with gloves on. I work with a guy who did Muay thai who actually got kicked very hard in a bout an had to go to hospital. His abdomen wasnt conditioned enough to take that blow.

Some bareknuckle fighters soaked their hand in various chemicals to make their fist harder…But they also hit a punching bag for conditioning.

Iron skills should be as much apart of conditioning as cardio, timing, strength, speed, and cooridation…

Basically Iron Palm/Fist is making your hands tougher and stronger to release and take greater impact!

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Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma