In Park's defense

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
41

MonkeySlap Too

(Although Bt, I’ve got to admit when you say things like you ‘don’t have to be nice to people you don’t want to learn from’, and other well, rascist attitudes, do cast you in a bad light i.e. ‘I try to train the brothers first’. What if I said I only try to teach ‘white’ people first? Two wrongs do not make a right, we are all in this world together, we are all brothers. Keep in mind, I am just saying this is how you come across - I don’t know you, so I could be way wrong about it).

Monkeyslap, I train anyone that wants to learn Ba Gua Zhang, But at the time most of my students are african american, this is because where I teach Ba Gua Zhang is mostley in black neighborhoods (New York City housing) I teach Ba Gua Zhang to many individuals that live in these housing neighborhoods, where there are no white Americans.

As for teaching Ba Gua Zhang to other ethnic groups, I feel most of these ethnic groups have some one from their kind, teaching them information about the internal martial arts. I can go to any Ba Gua Zhang web site, and you find most Ba Gua sites are run by a White American and a few Chinese individuals. But from my knowledge theres no african American Ba Gua Zhang web site. The only african American Ba gua Zhang web site out is mys. So right now I feel this my job to raise the awareness of my people, and give true information about the true martial art methods of Ba Gua Zhang. And so far I’m doing a great job, I get e-mails from all over the world, even African, where I be doing a Ba gua work shop some time next year.

Monkeyslap my father always told me, in this world, you going to have people that are going to love, envy you, and hate you. thats just the way of life. But no matter what always keep your center and blackness. ( African identification) for that is who you are. and I live by my father words.

(Although Bt, I’ve got to admit when you say things like you ‘don’t have to be nice to people you don’t want to learn from’

I never make post or write a statement like that, What I said was, don’t waste your time learning from fakes, most of the teachers that is world renowned as grandmasters of Ba Gua Zhang are nonfighters, I have met many fakes , and I do mean fake Ba Gua zhang teachers in the U.S.A and even in China. You can call me a low level Black Robert W. Smith, I seek out many So Called Ba gua experts, and the only thing they could show was forms, just like it is today forms, drills and talk of lineage. But when its time to utilize Ba Gua Zhang techniques in a sparring situation many of these so called Ba gua maters can’t apply $hit from their Ba Gua method. Today Ba Gua is a sad situations, to the point where is mostly dance Ba Gua Zhang, what I call the circle walk of fun. "

So monkeyslap, you are right when you say my passion for Ba Gua leads to to be confrontational. I’m all for the real practical side of Ba Gua Zhang combat, and I take no less. If Park Have top people that can get down, well I just want to meet up with them and spar thats all. My actions have nothing to do with ego or be hostile as his people try to make it seem. Its all about skill, nothing more.

42

Re: Parks method

Originally posted by count

I take it you are attempting to learn bagua from this system? May I ask, how often do you get hands on with Park or one of his certified instructors? OR have you had the opportunity yet? If not, is that your intention and did you get interested through the books and tapes?

Kyle and Paperweight, I already got some excellent and honest answers on this from jafc. How about you guys. Sounds like this method is working for you too. (except for the control part) Could you answer some of these questions and others in thread. Especially the ones posted by BT but he’s not the only one in this discussion. Instead of making it a P issing contest maybe some truth and value could come out of it. At least then we could see if the rest of what you are saying is of value too. Seems to me if someone asks

  1. Where is the Ba Gua Zhang Kun Shou (tui Shou push hands and push legs) training in Park method? BASIC."

The answer is either we don’t need that because… or we train that this way… No sense making a deal out of it.:rolleyes:

43

kyle You and your boy paperweight are just to Fake Ba Gua wannabes from that Ba Gua New Jersey school.

First he doesn’t need any,all I’m saying you have a problem with his teaching methods YOU GO a pay a visit,instead of calling out people like a mad dog.

You know some thing you are right , I’m going to pay your school a visit this Week, thats My word." I’m coming to test skills. We see who is all talk when I get there. I bring only four students of Wudang with me, and my students also will be willing to spar and one of you guys.

but rest assure there are many that fight.

Boy this I have to see, I hope you are telling the truth. See you this week.

44

Count you make a good point.

Why can’t you two guys answer any of my questions about training or other Ba Gua practitioners questions that post up here straightforward. With information that have true facts.

Like where do that bizarre called k’ou pu and pai pu circle walking chi kung method come from, that your teacher is now claiming to teach. What Yin Ba Gua lineage dones this so called leg chi kung method come from, what Yin Style teacher or Ba Gua system?

Can you answer these few questions with out going around $hit.

45

more and more

Like I said the only one you fight is yourself.

You know the man to see…but refuse to go.

With your question about chi gong…I ask you a more basic question. What is chi gong? And why do you take such offense to Park’s method? Have you tried it? I don’t think you have or you would find it’s value.

Ting jin training…I say again…it’s in there. It’s a complete system. Fighting training? It’s in there. It’s a complete system. Chi gong? Power development? It’s in there…it’s a complete system.

You guys always ask “how?” Pointless questions that only bring about more questions. “How” do you train knife fighting? “How” do you train hand fighting? “How” do you train chi gong? “How” do you train power? Into infinity. The answer..go train with Park and see. The only thing answering these questions does is bring about more useless questions.

You don’t have people travel the world over with decades of martial experience for a teacher without ting jin…or for a person teaching “fake stuff.”

BT if you are so well informed in Pa Kua. Tell us the steps of nei gong development. The breathing processes…the postures…why you use certain breaths to develop what? What is the process for learning a form? What is special about learning Pa Kua compared to learning other martial styles?

If you think the Ko Bu Bai Bu chi kung is “fake.” Then say why. What is it missing? Why is it “fake.” How does it not fit into the big picture? It’s clear that you have not learned the big picture yet…this is why you are so angry at others who do not follow your mold. So many ways to get to the same place. Your way is only one of many. Again your lack of humilty shines through. This will be your one life lesson that will arise over and over again in your life.

I think this is why you hate the system…it’s because you have not fully explored any one style of Pa kua to understand it deeply. You only go by what you have seen or read but not understood to make it your own yet. Going to china once a year is not learning a system. Living near a teacher and becoming an inner door student is the ONLY way to learning deeply.

46

Hey, Black Taoist!
You ever consider that these two, Kyle and Paperweight may just be outsiders attempting to throw gas on the fire between you and Park’s school. If they were real they should be making challenges for themselves not telling you to go see some guy in VA. Only a coward will make a challenge for someone other than himself. Or maybe someone who would like to start a fight between two other people and then stand back and enjoy what they have caused. Don’t let them sucker you in to this. The road you are on can only lead to trouble. If park’s school feels the need to prove anything, they will step up. If they don’t feel the need, they won’t. But to go to one of their schools because some ananomous A$$holes are doing this is a mistake.

47

BT…

Thanks, good answer. The posts I was thinking of (I’m am too fat and lazy to look for them) could be easily misinterpreted. I really respect what your doing insofar in getting out there, training and be willing to fight.

Correct me if I am wrong - but you are offering a friendly match - not a smack down. I know some teachers would just ignore this, but most of the guys I’ve trained with would be more than happy to do some kind of match, so again I’m puzzled why Park has no known rep. I can tell you the top fighters from most good schools that I know.

I’d argue that there are two scenarios: 1.) Park is legit, and he just does not care. He’s got a big organization, why mess it up with a loss or a lawsuit (just like Tyson would not fight the Gracies.) 2.) Park knows he’s not teaching fighting or legit BGZ, so he won’t do it. (But there is evidence of Park’s team fighting back in his Korea days…)

Have you thought about offering a proper challenge or invitation?

Kyle or paperweight - It’s one thing to be a ‘fighter’, it’s another to fight. In my day I fought ALL the time, any rules. Sometimes it worked for me, sometimes against. But you learn when you fight. It is true that you are limited in free fighting - but not so much that you can’t prove your skill. But all kinds of sparring over different drill opportunities. And just fighting your own people does not count. Just a thought.

So - I’ve blabbed enough. Is there any Park BGZ in San Francisco? I’d love to see some, and I can gaurentee I’m a good guest. I’m curious and I won’t write anything about the experience pro or con.

48

BT

“But to tell you the truth the kind palm drills park have in his method are irrelevant, if you are practicing real Ba Gua Zhang neijiaquan power methods.”

Count

Does the above statement looks to you that this guy is interesting in knowing about Park methods.Please.

I know were you are coming from,we are here to learn and exchange info,read the posts ,Count

BT has one of those Love-Hate relationships with Park and students.figure that one out.

Paperweight offered to cool things downin other posts,but this guy comes bitting back like a mad Barracuda man.It’s like a forbiden love story or something,who knows.

Don’t think you are going to get much info from me with that kind of attitude.

In the first book you have various basic two-person steping in and Fan Chang exercises ,stationary,straight line ,circle walking and free style to develop sensitivity,timing,reflex,balance,smooth change etc,sorry you will need to read the book for an in depth explanation,.
Static postures? take your pick,I Chuan,the 8 animals,are trained ,holding each one separately ,in a stationary Chi Kung Set and circle walking,see book, Dragon stance is trained similar to Xing YI San Ti,

BT

Where Kou Bu,Pai Pu Chi Kung comes from?

Uuhhh!!,China?..,or India?..no,no…Africa,yes it comes from Africa,does this make you smile brother?.

Enjoy your training,you get old very fast.

49

monkeyslap

Have you thought about offering a proper challenge or invitation?

Thats why I’m strepping down there this week to give them a face to face proper challenge. And if the teacher of that school whats to crosshands right there and then, I’m all for it. But thats my word.

Correct me if I am wrong - but you are offering a friendly match - not a smack down.

You are right, but I want it to be a full-contact match using Ba Gua Zhang. I want to see just had good these guys claim they are with Ba Gua Zhang.

I think this is why you hate the system…it’s because you have not fully explored any one style of Pa kua to understand it deeply. You only go by what you have seen or read but not understood to make it your own yet. Going to china once a year is not learning a system. Living near a teacher and becoming an inner door student is the ONLY way to learning deeply

Man I see you don’t know what to post , you sometimes just post the dumbest replys. For one I been learning Yin style Ba Gua Zhang from my Chen Xiaoping from 1995 to now 2002, (7-years)so what makes you think I’m not his inner door student. By the way my sifu will be at the all Ba Gua tournament why don’t you ask him. I am the only student he taught the whole Cao Zhongsheng’s Yin branche too. But I guess this makes me a out door student, I’m the only student that have his home number and can sleep over his house whenever I want to. But you claim I’m not a inner door student of his.

Like I said my sifu Will be at the event, anyone can ask him where I stand with him. And that go’s for my other Yin style teacher Master Xu Shi Xi in Beijing China. if your dumb ass, ever in your life it to go to China.

You don’t have people travel the world over with decades of martial experience for a teacher without ting jin…or for a person teaching “fake stuff.”

THEN WHERE THE HELL ARE THESE MARTIAL EXPERIENCE PEOPLE AT IN YOUR SCHOOL? HOPE THIS WEEK THESE PEOPLE ARE AROUND.BECAUSE I STILL SAY YOU ARE LYING. but its only a matter of days to the truth for me to find out.

As for your dumb question on how I train, I done explain many times before on KFO the many way I train in my style of Ba gua Zhang. Also you go to my web Site to learn. RIGHT FAN." MAKE SUCH YOU KEEP GIVING MY WEB SITE MORE HITS.:smiley:

williamsremo:

If they don’t feel the need, they won’t. But to go to one of their schools because some ananomous A$$holes are doing this is a mistake.

YOU ARE RIGHT IN A WAY, bUT THESE TWO PUNKS LOVE TALKING $HIT WHEN IN FACT I KNOW WHO THEY ARE. THEY ARE FROM THAT NJ SCHOOL . AND IF I SEE YOU TWO PUNKS AT THE ALL BA GUA EVENT, I’M STEPPING TO YOU. I NEVER FORGET A FACE. BUT I GUESS THESE TWO FOOLS WILL HIDING WITHIN THE MASS AUDIENCE.:o

50

Fake system unpractical techniques

kyle YOU ARE JUST A NO PROFILE HIDING BEHIND YOUR P.C. PUNK A FEW POST BACK YOU CLAIM THAT I HAD LOW LEVEL WUSHU. I CALL YOU OUT ON YOUR CLAIM AND LIKE THE PUNK YOU ARE YOU DID NOT STEP UP.

Does the above statement looks to you that this guy is interesting in knowing about Park methods.Please.

Bt)You are right, because them palm drills are Bull$hit, and they are not real Ba Gua Zhang drills. How you Motherers trying to fool with that Bull$hit. Hsing Yi Boxing footwork drills trying to pass as Ba Gua Footwork. YOU Motherers are a joke. But the joke is going to Be on you, When I see you Fake fools this week.

BT has one of those Love-Hate relationships with Park and students.figure that one out.

Bt) the only love I have is for my woman, As for you fake mother****ers, I’m just telling the martial artist the truth, theres nothing to figure. Park been lying from day one. thats all to it.

Where Kou Bu,Pai Pu Chi Kung comes from?

Uuhhh!!,China?..,or India?..no,no…Africa,yes it comes from Africa,does this make you smile brother?.

I know were you are coming from,we are here to learn and exchange info,read the posts ,Count

BT) You have nothing to exchange, because you have no real knowledge of yor own, every then you just post seems to be taking from other KFO posters interpretations of martial art knowledge, I even see a little of count $hit in your post reply. Whats the matter you can’t establish your own guiding principles from God****her Ba Gua Park. Maybe if he teach more then just for one day , out of the year you learn something. Then trying to take from other people post. Because like I said before you guys don’t have push hands or standing Chi Kung, so stop lying.

Where Kou Bu,Pai Pu Chi Kung comes from?

Uuhhh!!,China?..,or India?..no,no…Africa,yes it comes from Africa,does this make you smile brother?.

Bt) Like I said you can’t answer my Question, because your dumb ass don’t know. Why? Because Park made that Bull$hit up just like he did with them Bull$hit palm drills. You mother****ers are Big Time fakes.

You are right I have no love for Bull$hit fake as Ba Gua Zhang Teachers. Thats why not one you punks will step up because you all know what you are learning is useless against real fighters. I put you guys right back on your ass, just like I did the first time. I’m not going to be nice anymore, anytime someone ask me about you guys system or e-mail me, for now on I’m going to tell them the truth. Park is a ****ING BIG FAKE."

Thats just the bottom line."

51

go inward

Your hate for everything that Park touches is odd.

Just read your posts. I would say that unless you are mad at someone or trying to prove your dominance you are lost in this world. You do not like peace. You thrive from anger and hatred.

I say it again. This type of thinking only contracts you makes you less.

You keep saying “fake.” It would be one thing if Park taught fake things but it’s all good stuff and makes sense logically. There is no crazy beliefs just practical knowledge.

What I don’t understand is there are LOTS of true fakes out there and yet you focus on Park.

And again. You avoid my questions time after time just like you say I avoid your questions. So if you say i’m not real then you are not real also. You are as “fake” as I am. And as “fake” as you say Park is. The true tell is that when you get frustrated you resort to violence. When the level goes beyond what you know you resort to violence. How can you ever reach a high level?

You say Park’s chi gong is fake. But have no idea what chi gong is? Or point to specifics at why his chi gong goes against pa kua principles. How does it not fit into the bigger picture.

These are the DEEP questions. And with only 7 years of experience you do not know the whole picture. If you are the only one to learn all of this info from your sifu why did it take you only 7 years?

7 years is baby years. 7 years is just enough time to build up the foundations in a modern day training schedule.

And to all the people who say that BT’s challenges are not hostile they better read his other posts. They are very hostile. They contain flowery language of someone living in a fantasy world of old day China.

There is no conflict with you. Why do you keep your conflict going? Why do you need this constant negative attention drawn to you? Is this how your personal life is? Is this how you solve all of your problems? You dislike peace and friedship with a passion. Every attempt to reach peace and you reject it. Why must you prove your dominance again and again. We know you are tough and are real. You have nothing more to prove. But something with in you does NOT truly believe this yet. OR you would not be on this board day and day and day claiming how strong you are.

You call yourself the Black Taoist. I see and read from you that you have none of the principles of a true Taoist with in you. None of it is embodied or integrated into you being. You are more of an Agressor then a Taoist. You are more of a person dealing with old hurts as a young man trying to prove he’s not scared anymore as an adult. These things are clear. Not a jugement on you but just a blazing imbalance that is clear.

And I question you sifu?? How can any sifu respect or teach student with such bad and shameful principles? Any high level sifu I know would kick their student out for making such trouble and showing such disrespect.

52

Yeah, some of what BT posts sounds sometimes hostile. I’d bet, he’s probably cool outside his flamboyant writing though. And while I may agree with some of paperweights comments, the fact and question still remains.

Baguazhang is a martial art.

Paperweight wrote:
You keep saying “fake.” It would be one thing if Park taught fake things but it’s all good stuff and makes sense logically. There is no crazy beliefs just practical knowledge.

Makes sense logically? Uhh, okay, that may be. If its practical knowledge then it should be tested and I don’t mean anything else but a friendly sparring session.

I can even understand folks practising martial arts and not wanting to take part in that kinda stuff (hey, to each their own), but that should be an exception. I’d think you could find someone to step up and put to practise that what is taught at a MARTIAL arts school.

So, BT may come off as hostile, but you guys are still dodging the point.

Just had to chime in. Both have made their points and I don’t think this argument is going anywhere.

53

And to all the people who say that BT’s challenges are not hostile they better read his other posts. They are very hostile. They contain flowery language of someone living in a fantasy world of old day China.

BT using flowery language of someone living in an old chinese fantasy world? What the heck??

I guess you could consider “mother****er” flowery if you really want to :wink: I find his posts very straightforward and usually pretty easy to follow.

54

One last try

Originally posted by kyle
BT

“But to tell you the truth the kind palm drills park have in his method are irrelevant, if you are practicing real Ba Gua Zhang neijiaquan power methods.”

Count

Does the above statement looks to you that this guy is interesting in knowing about Park methods.Please.
Actually it’s the kind of question that could tell a lot about what a person learns from a teacher and how. A good answer might have been, ‘we practice internal training methods too, they just aren’t shown to beginners or on the tapes because that information would only confuse someone trying to learn.’ or ‘Even though the focus is on developing internal, all arts are external at first.’ or ‘I don’t understand the teaching method enough to comment’.

I know were you are coming from,we are here to learn and exchange info,read the posts ,Count

Uh, no, I go to a teacher to learn from. I am just curious how and what other people are learning, especially when they don’t have full time access to a teacher.

Paperweight offered to cool things downin other posts,
I would have prefered to hear answers to the questions. Then I could tell if what he is offering is cool or not. But instead you guys are getting angry and attacking, things are escalating into a war of words, no real information is coming from anyone, this threads out of control and not worth reading anymore.

in the first book you have various basic two-person steping in and Fan Chang exercises, stationary, straight line,circle walking and free style to develop sensitivity,timing,reflex,balance,smooth change etc,sorry you will need to read the book for an in depth explanation,. Static postures? take your pick, I Chuan,the 8 animals,are trained, holding each one separately ,in a stationary Chi Kung Set and circle walking,see book, Dragon stance is trained similar to Xing YI San Ti,

I already said I saw the video’s and book. I’m not interested in what’s on them as much as what you got from them. My questions are more about the transmision than the method.

Paperweight,

Your whole last posts is ridiculous. What do you expect to get from that? Are you trying to teach someone a lessons or just venting? Are you protecting the world from something? Defending your teacher who, BTW, doesn’t need your help defending himself? It reaks of assumptions and I know your going to hear about it. Problem is, We’ll never get to the real heart of the topic. I really wanted to hear more about how this method of learning is working. Answering some of the questions would be helpful to see if people are actually learning something. If a public conversation is too much, maybe you could contact me privately. I am not attacking you or your sifu. I don’t even know who your sifu is. Do you study from Park directly or from one of his certified instructors?

55

paperweight Talk, talk,…BlackTaoist you are not a true taoist…talk talk talk… Like I said you are fakes so you stay anything, so you don’t have to step up, how sad is that you practice a useless art. Ok this is the part when you are going to tell everyone how Great is Park and people from all over the world fly in to see this shadowless teacher.

Like I told you two no profile hiding punks, I’m going to see just how good you punks are this week, and nothing you say on KFO is going to change that.

I find you two punks amusing, at the same time you two punks try to art like martial artist, but from reading you two to fools post, I can see your scare. But I should have known you was a punk , just look at your internet name PAPERWEIGHIGT."

You are just to funny to me, for me to get upset, and by the way I have been practiticing Ba Gua Zhang for over 20 years, Frist with Sifu Rudy curry Jr. Who was a long time student of the Late B.P. Chan, The man B,.P.Chan himself. I been doing Ba Gua Zhang since the 80’s punk, as well as Tai Chi, Hsing Yi Boxing. :smiley:

But anyway I don’t have to explain myself to you punks, if you think I don’t have skills or I can’t teach, Well I have many good students that I know love to spar.

What I find real funny is you two punks tell me to go visit one of Park schools, So I said to myself What the heck, I’m flying to VA, but there is Park Cats teaching in New York and N.J. area So I said to myself this week I make some free time, For Me and a few of my Boys will take a ride out there and see whats up with this Great Ba Gua Zhang style that people, and skilled martial artists are fly from all over the world to learn from Park and his many certified instructors. So you claim.

So I’m going to see for myself this week this Great Ba Gua Zhang method you are talking about so much. For me Ba gua Zhang is about the skillls, nothing more nothing less.

See you…

56

no more…

  1. Nothing on this board promotes anything useful.

The posts on the emptyflower site spark great insight and conversation. Here it’s all BT going off on someone else’s system for no reason. Just threats.

There’s no anger toward BT from Park’s side so why is BT constantly on Park?

  1. Pa Kua is a martial art. No one doubts this from either side? If you take it you train to fight OR know when not to fight.

With this said. There is no beef w/BT. But he keeps wanting to fuel the fire for some reason? Keeps saying this chi gong is fake. Never seen that chi gong. But has no basis for saying it? Doesn’t know why it fake? Or how it doesn’t follow Pa Kua principles or how it does or does not fit into the larger picture.

Since BT keeps his fire w/Park it must be something internal with in him that is causing this.

57

In an earlier post BT spoke of having to defend himself from a physical attack by two or more of Park’s students, FWIW.

58

Daredevil

Makes sense logically? Uhh, okay, that may be. If its practical knowledge then it should be tested and I don’t mean anything else but a friendly sparring session.

Thats all I’m looking for this Week, a nice friendly Sparring Session to test skills With Park or any of his certified instructors. These guys act like I’m going to kill them or something, these guys are to comical, I think they need to stop looking at the old New Jack City movie.

I’d bet, he’s probably cool outside his flamboyant writing though.

Yo I am. If you ever come to New York we can meet up and you can see for yourself. I love to hang out the ladys. posting to these punks is just my way of wasting some time on my job.

But when It comes to Ba Gua Zhang you are right , its a martial art, So I want to visit these cats and see this Great Ba Gua Zhang method of Parks in action, nothing more, nothing less.

59

paperweight, Ok if it makes you happy, I stop calling your Great Ba Gua Teacher Park a Fake. Ok Are you Happy Now?

Now will you answer my first Questions, As well count Questions.

Also you told me to visit Park schools So I see nothing wrong with me visiting Your teacher schools in my area. After all you claim Park have many experience martial artist in all his schools, so it should not matter what school I visit, because you guys have skilled people that was learning other martial arts before they came to Park, so you claim.

So I plan to find out…Thats all to it. Nothing more, or nothing less.

60

BT

How’s your liver?.

You Have a girlfriend?,mmm…that is odd,people tell me that in your last trip to China you decided to become an EUNUCH in order to emulate Don Hai Chuan,hoping to gain more skills.

Black Eunuch,certaily fits you better than BlackTaoist.LOL

Just kidding.

FINALLY,you are begining to make sense.

AHH!!,and don’t forget to bring your ID,who knows your ass might
end up in jail or the hospital.

good luck.