Yeah, Count—you think just because you’re a member on this forum that that gives you the right to make comments and take part in the discussions here?
Daymn
LOL! 
That’s true Ky-Fi, what was I thinking, and Taoist, my post wasn’t specifically for you either. But if my opinions bother you so much, you might try the ignore feature.
BT,
I take it from your response to count that you are talking to me.
I have only begun to research bagua and I am coming at this from an external style perspective (Wado-ryu & Shaolin). Over the last five years, I have studied Yang Tai Chi. I do not claim expertise.
-
I have looked at the rich history between BT’s group and Park’s group on this and other posts. With all the bad blood between the two groups, I am not surprised by the lack of representation of Park’s system at the Bagua tourney.
-
Photos - bad photos say something, good photos say little. Still, I trust neither and would go see for myself.
-
I have read the first book by Park & Miller. There seems to reference to static posture training toward the end. There are not many pictures but it leads me to believe that it is covered in the method. (I have not seen the video).
4.Push hands is absent in this first volume. I am halfway through the second and there is still no mention of it. Absense of push hands would be a bad thing. Trying to give the authors the benefit of the doubt, the book does not claim to cover every aspect of training. In fact, it seems focused on training that can be done without a partner (with a few two person applications sprinkled in.) I do not know whether this means the method does not do push hands or simply did not include it in the book. (BT, I realize you had experience with students who said they did not do push hands - not a good thing.) Does anyone else outside of BT’s circle know if the system includes push hands?
- Both books include a number of palm training sets. They look like power is taught after the student has started to develop proper alignment. Would these not fit the bill for introductory palm training?
I agree with Count, the approach taken in the book is VERY systematic and it seems to be written from a “if you are looking to get started” perspective. I would not want to try to learn from a book or video without frequent contact with a person. Otherwise, you could learn brain surgery by correspondence.
Bottom line is I don’t think I can dismiss this method without more investigation and personal experience. Count has weighed in - he has not tried the methods out or met anyone who has.
BT - let me know what you think about points #3 & #5. I know where you stand with regard to the tourney, push hands and the method in general. No need to repeat yourself
Anyone else?
I don’t need to know anything about Park’s training techniques to SEE that Park knows his bagua and can apply it.
The details of what one does in his training really don’t matter to me.
All I care about is whether a guy can use his bagua or not - and Park CAN.
Count:But if my opinions bother you so much, you might try the ignore feature.
Count nothing you say or do , can bother me in anyway. Like I told you before, I know what tme it is with you. And I still stand by my veiwpoints about you. If you was not talking to me, then fine. Move on.
. I have looked at the rich history between BT’s group and Park’s group on this and other posts. With all the bad blood between the two groups, I am not surprised by the lack of representation of Park’s system at the Bagua tourney.
First of all, there is no history between me ar Park Group. For one I only post statements conforming to fact and truth of the few encountering experience I had with his people. So I know first hand what Park Ba Gua Zhang system is like.
- Both books include a number of palm training sets. They look like power is taught after the student has started to develop proper alignment. Would these not fit the bill for introductory palm training?
In traditional Ba Gua Zhang you must first learn how to develop your centerpoint by first practicing standing meditation. Real Ba Gua Zhang basic palm training, consisted of holding eight postures for a minimum of five minutes -a total of 40 minutes standing meditation. This is the true way of developing Ba Gua Zhang power. You must first have correct alignment and posture before you do them kind of external palm drills. And yes they are EXTERNAL palm drills on Park tape.
But to tell you the truth the kind palm drills park have in his method are irrelevant, if you are practicing real Ba Gua Zhang neijiaquan power methods.
just my veiwpoint from my own experience in training in Ba Gua Zhang. My opinion have nothing to do with bad blood with Park. My statement is dealing with the truth about Ba Gua Zhang training.
jafc,
Originally posted by jafc
I agree with Count, the approach taken in the book is VERY systematic and it seems to be written from a “if you are looking to get started” perspective. I would not want to try to learn from a book or video without frequent contact with a person. Otherwise, you could learn brain surgery by correspondence.
You aren’t by any chance, offering such correspondence courses, are you? I hope that’s not the way you learned it. :eek:
I take it you are attempting to learn bagua from this system? May I ask, how often do you get hands on with Park or one of his certified instructors? OR have you had the opportunity yet? If not, is that your intention and did you get interested through the books and tapes?
Count -
4 years medical school.
7 years residency working about 110 hours per week
one 8 hour written test
one 2 day oral exam.
about 3 thousand operations
AND you too can become a neurosurgeon:D
The money is good but the hours still s%^&
BT
thank you for your response to #5. Premature focus on external technique would be a huge drawback. I guess I’m going to have to check it out for myself. Good luck with the upcoming tourney.
Why does everyone care so much about Park’s Bagua?
If you like it, go with it.
If you dont, then dont.
Seems a bit open and shut to me…
Ah, you must be new 
We’ll have none of that level-headed thinking, mistar. Is Park Fraud or God? Weigh in immediately, or face the full fury of the casual weekend posters.
jafc
“I guess i’m going to have to check it out by myself”
Wise words,grasshoper,wise words indeed.
From my experience,Master Park teaches a complete Pa Kua system,very sistematic ,lots of detail,very deep,however is not for everybody or the only method available,just a different road to help you gain skill,if it fits your body,character and expectations,take it,otherwise try another road.
enjoy your journey.
More questions? why so many? why so focused again on Park?
Instead of all these questions just train w/Park and see for yourselves?? All the people with all these questions have never trained in his system. All the people who have trained in his system learn to answer all questions via principles fundemental to Pa Kua chang. Once you have the principles you no longer have so many questions.
Why do Park’s students not enter the “all ba gua” tournament? Some schools take pride in all the wall hangings and high kick trophies and framed paper certificates they can attain…some schools do not. You go into a Kim’s karate and that’s all you see. Is this a meaning of good MA?
Key point…If you know that what you have is good and what you train is good why do you need someone else to say it is good? Most people who come to Park have already done the tournament route in their younger days of searching for true kung fu. Many have lived over seas and have been in the military learning in Japan, philipeans, China, and else where. Many have trained in hard core old school karate schools (because kung fu was hard to find in the early 70s) where a busted lip and broken bones where a mark of bravery. Many were instructors of other kung fu and karate systems. Only after all this searching and kept having questions that could not be answered did they stumble upon Park. Once you find “good stuff that’s true” and you already know what’s good or not why do you need the director of some tournament to affirm this?
He’s not a God as many mockingly suggest. He’s just a man and humbly admits that every day. His common saying is that “anyone can do what he does…he has 2 arms and 2 legs just like everyone else.”
I have already stated who you need to speak to for that taste you like. But again, you have been so vocal on this forum and so hostile to Park I do not believe that anyone from his system would take kindly to you. (no offense to you).
Again, the books are just a taste of what he teaches not the complete package. He does have static training…he does have sensitivity training…he does have power training practice. If you have ever talked with him or learned from him you see all of these things embodied in the man when he moves in pa kua or just moving in day to day situations.
speak to the source. speak with Park.
Instead of all these questions just train w/Park and see for yourselves??
I don’t need to train With ParK. The man not teaching anything extraordinary I want to learn. But whenever he is in New York I’m willing to crosshands with him . All you have to do is let me know when your teacher is in town.
Like I said, I know what your teacher system has, and what it don’t have. I crosshands with a few people that train in Park system, and like I said before they had nothing." NonFighters. And you saying most people that train with Park use to train in other Hardcode martial arts. Your joking right?
But you claim there is more to your teacher style, I’m willing to find out by crosshands with Park or any of Park Long time Students when ever their in The New York area. I hear Park has a top student teaching in the New York China town area and in NJ. When I have time, Like I said before I’ll visit these individuals and see for myself these hardcore fighters teaching Parks Ba Gua style you talking about. Because I see you can’t answer my question straightforward you keep going around $hit. So it looks like I’m going to have to find some time to get around to you guys.
See you soon.
My last responce on this issue.
As far as training with Park,
I have.
Not extensivly, only a siminar, but I stayed just were I was.
All my questions were answered.
Now on to the main point,
This tournament is to promote BaGua. To raise the standard if possible. To experiance other things perhaps get insight to your own techniques. To test your knowledge. How do you know your good if you don’t test it? and don’t tell me against your classmates. That’s no good at all. The classmates learn each other
to well. The test, is the unknown. the same as if hypotheticaly, you where walking down the street and were attacked by a gang. What would you do? How do you know what you would do if you never have been there? You could freeze or any other thing, but fight. and even if you do fight, are your techniques so ingrained that you no longer have to think about it? “Steel sharpens steel”.
I’m not judging anyone, the Judges will do that, I’m simply the host. This tournament will not be ruled by Politics
This Tournament will not be ruled by Politics!
You either good or your not. You can use it or you can’t.
The judges are teachers themselves some of them sienior to Park in terms of time in. They are more than qualified to judge anyone competeing.
As to “Why do Park’s students not enter the “all ba gua” tournament?” I Really have no Idea, It makes no sense to me, Also I wonder why, when thier supposed to be promoting Ba-gua, their at tournaments doing BaJi. Thats the biggest Puzzle to me.
{Key point…If you know that what you have is good and what you train is good why do you need someone else to say it is good? Most people who come to Park have already done the tournament route in their younger days of searching for true kung fu. Many have lived over seas and have been in the military learning in Japan, philipeans, China, and else where. Many have trained in hard core old school karate schools (because kung fu was hard to find in the early 70s) where a busted lip and broken bones where a mark of bravery. Many were instructors of other kung fu and karate systems. Only after all this searching and kept having questions that could not be answered did they stumble upon Park. Once you find “good stuff that’s true” and you already know what’s good or not why do you need the director of some tournament to affirm this}
Again, How do you know? Self delusion will get you hurt.
Again I’m not the Judge. Your skills will judge you, your own attainments. It’s for all of Ba-Gua, It took me years to learn how to fight with this style, and that was by fighting real people not play fighting with my classmates. It was by fighting strangers that I got true experiance. Thus I know what to do in a situation.
the tournament helps the practitioner to gain that experiance in a controlled enviroment. Your excuse for them is lame.
but to each his own.
As far as he’s not a God, your right. But he is teated as such.
{I have already stated who you need to speak to for that taste you like. But again, you have been so vocal on this forum and so hostile to Park I do not believe that anyone from his system would take kindly to you. (no offense to you).}
Why? because we pointed out some facts That you still can’t dispute? Weather true or not he has no representation. this is obvious. I mean you’ve just stated all these people with all this experiance in other systems as well as being instructors themselves Where are they? come on now, this is really stupid. do your own research. I didn’t make up what I posted. And I have no beef with park. it’s his lack of representation. He’s got schools all over the world and no rep? you tell me.
As to your last paragraph,
As I said, I have learn from him, and again I stayed where I was.
now you tell me, how is it, let’s just say 5yrs you been training and you have not been exposed to the techniques of sensitivity?
That’s bull.
The techniques you mention are part of the fundamentals. This is the Internal. You better ask somebody.
Now this is real you’ve made mention of a lot of people that you ovbviously feel are qualifiyed to represent parks school. So I’m going to do it like this.
Anybody from parks school that wants to touch hands with the BlackTaoist I’ll admit for free. Because we don’t belive it. please prove us wrong.
Ain’t got nothin to do with being hostile it’s all about skills.
show yours.
In Peace
Maoshan
HAHA
You guys just like the hype I see.
Here’s a question for BT. You said that Park has nothing extraordinary to teach. By extraordinary what do you mean by this? How are you judging what is extraordinary and what is run of the mill? Is it the extrodinary detail in which Park teahes evey movement? Is it the logical principles his system is based on? Is it the no nonsense fighting theory and application of his system? Is it the depth of his chi gong knowledge and full body internal power? Is it the incredible listening ability of how he moves and fights? Is it his teacher’s gurellia fighting expereince? Is it his weapon training and teaching expertise? Is it his humbleness that he has as a human being and willing to share knowledge? This to me is extrodinary.
I have been exposed to the techniques of sensitivity…and still have no idea of why you think his system does not have this? You said that the people you met moved like robots…this is not what Park teaches??
You guys keep saying Park’s system doesn’t have this and Park’s system does not have that. When if you train with him…his system does have all the things you say it does not. I think the bad part is that you make the assumption… from the 5 or so robot students you met, the beginner books he has put out to get you started and the 1-2 seminars from Park you have attended… on the entire system as a whole. What you have is the appetizer or just a dumpling. The main course and then the dessert is what you seek. The people that train hard are tasting the main course and a few…only a few are tasting the dessert.
I have already given you (and other’s have also) the person you need to speak with about your fighting questions. The man you make fun of in VA.
Again…with all the past hostilty from you guys on Park and his system how can you suggest that he or his students could trust you or participate in any of your events? You opennly put him down, you opennly issue challeges to him and his entire system, you say they can’t fight, can’t even do the basics of pa kua chang, have no power, have no real chi gong knowledge, what they do is basic external kungfu exercises, have no lineage, their teachers and past teachers are weak or do not exhist. HAHA
And why should Park or anyone in his system come to such a WARM WELCOME? To prove that he has all the things you say he does not? That’s already done and is why people the world over fly to see and learn from him. The proof is in excellence. And Park is a class act with all excellence. A passion and a love for pa kua…and a training schedule that still goes on to this day…at over 60 yrs old.
If he is as fake and as unskilled and such a low level as you say…then let me be unskilled and weak. Let me practice my heart out until 60 yrs old and teach with such pride a system that has such health and self defense techniques as this “weak system” has. Let me learn the details of fighting with open hand and weapons and why you use each thing via principles. Let me learn and embody these “weak principles” that will still teach me long after Park’s death.
There is nothing to prove once you know. Only many things to prove if you do not know.
Talk , talk, talk ,is that all you Park guys good for? Like I said When So Called Master Park is in The New York or NJ area, all you have to do is let me know, its that easy. (E-mail)
I have already given you (and other’s have also) the person you need to speak with about your fighting questions. The man you make fun of in VA.
Man kill the Bull$hit with fat boy. If you want me to go to VA, you must be going to pay my way to go down there, because other then that, I’m not going to waste my money, or time beating up a fat person trying to apply Parks jump step on me. Also if fat boy is so good, all he have to do is come to the Event, and we can get it on,(freefight)Him or anyone from your school. Because like I said not one of you guys can fight from Park shoool using Ba gua Zhang. And I’m willing to prove it. So stop all the talking about how great your teacher is and his superman Ba gua method, because so far all I hear is Talk , Talk, Talk. Bottom line is its time for some action. But we all know that not one of you Park students can fit the bill for some real sparring. Thats why not one of you will step up. You just can’t fight. Thats all to it.
So you need to stop lying about about all these people you claim that are fighters in Park Style now training. I’m willing to spar anyone from your school,So stop talking Bull$hit, and one of you just step up, after all you clclaim Park have all these skilled martial artist training with him, becaues he so great a teacher, it should be easy for you guys to bring a few of your best fighters.
So Stop going around $hit, and just step up if Park style is so great. No one is going to be hostile it’s all about skills.
show yours. Stop with your many excuse and just step up, its that sample.
Oh boy,here’s the Mesiah again with the same old ranting preaching tape.
Would you prefer a limo or a private jet?,do you want some company also?,boys or girls?.
Yes your highness,whatever you say,LOL.
I tell you man,only in New York
To be born a donkey,is fate,to act like one is masochism.
On teaching
Traditional teachers teach by prescription,according to your needs,body type goals and character,not like a cookie cutting machine,not everybody learn or needs the same way.
There are about 3000 forms,plus 300 different chi kung in CMA alone,whos right and who’s wrong?
In PaKua,even within the same lineage there are variations,but the principles remain the same.Dong Hai Chuan taught different way and different methods to Chen and Yin Fu,wich one is the right one?.
The one that fits you.
If you have 3 students,one with 3 years Tai Chi,another with 5 years Karate and the Third with no experience,different character and body type,in the begining will you put ALL of them to do standing meditations or show the same things?,nice to meet you MR lowLevel teacher.
.
Because a student doesn’t know this or that part,not necesarily means the teacher don’t know ,specially when it come to basics,they just get you started at different levels.
Lol,not long ago there was a beginer guy (with no patience)complaining that Master Park put him to do meditation instead of showing him how to fight with Pa Kua,guess he could be a good student for you guys.
Any complete IMA system must have Wai dan,Nei Kung and Chi Kung,Park’s System have all of that,
If touching Park’s books doesn’t burn your hands or makes you blind,there is detail explanation on why and how he’s methods are that way.
There is also an interesting article in Qi Journal.com,by Dan Miller about CHi Kung.
On Fighting
Since you guys like to pass judgment having only superficial information on thing that you are totally ignorant about,I will say so far for what I see in your web site and what you write that you are Low Level MA,
I say this because if you REALLY have power and skills ,you could very easily injure people.and will be very carefull about it(not to say that I am better than you),but that is my experience with people that are high level MA,they are very carefull to whom they show it or fight.
There is nothing worth learning from you,besides geting hit and risking injury ,
This is not a smart way to get skill,to prove what?.
Many people haven killed or crippled for life,for what?,just to play Macho Man.
Going to a tournament,full of rules that tells me,can’t use this or that,to prove what?,personally I don’t train for ego.
Besides,fighting is a serious and dangerous business,how many fights did you have in the last 3 years versus how many times did you get sick,well if you are not a street punk,chances are getting sick will be far more common than fighting,that is why in IMA Chi Kung training is more beneficial for you and at the same time aids in your fighting skills.
MY fighting way is my secret weapon and unless my life is in danger you will not see it.Why is it that only few students get the deep stuff,not long ago it was very difficult to find a Chinese teacher willing to share knowledge with a westener,why?,they didn’t want this weapon to turn against them.
In a fight if I know your weapons and tactics ,the advantage is mine.
Do you think that fighting Master Park will teach you Pa Kua,LOL.
Park’s fighting trade mark is to put people to sleep for few minutes and when you wake up you will not know what happened to you.I have seen that myself.
I think it will be healthier for you to pay tuition.
Ok,better do some training ,this kind of manure is not going to help my training.
here’s what’s funny…
Everything you say is how tough you are. How authentic your teachers are. If this is true why are you not seeking to become a lineage student? How can you learn deeply when you are not in the door? Why are you not writing articles and publishing books to demonstrate your knowledge to your pa kua brothers?
If you write the truth about Pa Kua theory and body knowledge then you would have more than your share of people leaving their teachers to check you out for the real thing. People search years for a great teacher. My question is are you truly one or just talking like you claim everyone else is?
If you are as good and as tough as you say then that’s great. If you can kick 101 people’s a$$es with your pa kua you are the man. If you are a skilled Pa Kua practioner we all can respect that too. Like I said before it’s your delivery that’s lacking. And your disrespect that is shameful.
For such a person seeking respect and honor you certainly do not command this. A teacher commands respect and honor by his actions.
You are fighting no one but yourself.
Excellence is the true test. And Park has reached this.
Hmmm, you know I keep reading the same things over and over here. I’ve come to two conclusions:
- Black Taoist is still young in the arts. He trains in a dedicated fashion and has a passion for the true usage of the arts. This results in disgust at the internal ‘hippies’ out there, which results in his rather brash ‘straight talk’. Yes, he comes across a little immature - but everyone who is trying to do real kung fu goes through this stage. the ‘fighter’ stage - before they become a warrior. BT CARES about BGZ, how it is practiced and how it is viewed. He has good taste in teachers too, so here he sees a huge BGZ group that does not not seem to jibe with his experience, and he wants to know what the deal is. Fair enough. And his passion leads him to be confrontational. Understandable, as we are talking about BGZ fighting.
(Although Bt, I’ve got to admit when you say things like you ‘don’t have to be nice to people you don’t want to learn from’, and other well, rascist attitudes, do cast you in a bad light i.e. ‘I try to train the brothers first’. What if I said I only try to teach ‘white’ people first? Two wrongs do not make a right, we are all in this world together, we are all brothers. Keep in mind, I am just saying this is how you come across - I don’t know you, so I could be way wrong about it).
2.) Park doesn’t have a rep to fight for him. Sh!t, I’ve only got a few clubs under me and I have five students I can name off the top of my head that will step up and play, and I’m a part-timer with a job and family. The Park PR is very impressive, but shouldn’t he have a top fighter? Most schools do. He doesn’t even have to win, just fight well to prove his point. With all the years of training - where are his champions? This disturbs me as I have no opinion one way or the other about Park.
Of course, BT is not challenging Park or his students directly, he is doing it on the web. But I beleive he will follow up on his promise to test the skill of Park’s group, and I beleive he’ll be honest about it one way or the other - as he has already proven that he’s a student who is out to learn, and sometimes that means losing. I’m surprised no one in Parks group has the same attitude. Most fighting schools I have known always have someone to step out on the floor.
paperweight
kyle
You two guys talk more Bull$hit then anybody up here on KFO, hiding behind your P.C. No profile and both of you want to talk like your have so much knowledge about Ba Gua Zhang, now thats the $hit I find funny.
Each time you two guys post a reply I find your so-called Ba Gua knowledge amusing and when you talk about your teacher skill I find it comical and laughable. Now you guys are trying to talk martial morality, as if you two unknown posters are confucius himself, you guys need to make up your mind where you want to take this. First you guys post telling me to visit Park, or fat Boy in VA, now you guys are back to talking the be humble game. I tell you, you guys are big time amusing in my eyes just as all of Park people practicing his method.
Bottom line is you guys come with excuse after excuse why you can’t step up. You guys can never answer anyone quenstion with the true facts, always going around $hit. Not one of you unknown posters can be real with yourself, but you trying to talk about morality of deeds to me. And you fakes are always hiding Behind The P.C. behind fake names, talking Bull$hit but can’t back up nothing you post. If all Park students actions are like this, Then I can see from what here on KFO, you guys are no real Ba Gua Zhang fighting school, but a school of suckers and nonfighters. teaching Bull$hit Ba Gua Methods.
IN ORDER TO BE HUMBLE, YOU MUST FIRST RID YOURSELF OF FALSE DIGNITY.
SO KILL THE BULL$HIT, AND JUST STEP UP IF YOU GUYS ARE ALL THAT.
Bottom line, if you guys want to test me, all you have to do is show up at the event its that easy. not hard at all, I don’t care how you guys want to do this open or indoor, its all good.
Monkeyslap
" Park doesn’t have a rep to fight for him"
First he doesn’t need any,all I’m saying you have a problem with his teaching methods YOU GO a pay a visit,instead of calling out people like a mad dog.
Second how do you know that?,Did you trained with him?,I did.
If you did not,better to say YOU don’t know any, but rest assure there are many that fight.
Did it cross your mind that they don’t give a **** about these wannabes.
Another problem with this guys is that they are accusing the Teacher not only the students so in this case you the challenger need to go to the source(of course easy to say,painful to do).
We started talking about teaching methods and finished like always,i am going to kick your balls,step up.
Welcome to mouth Kung Fu.