if TCMA is not applicable then....

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
61

i agree with green cloud.

forms are far from boring and mundane. i know many people who have finished their systems forms and go right back to basics because they have a new understanding and want to master the form.

a form is something to master. not just mundanely perform because your sifu said to. but i won’t try to teach anyone here. if you perform a form and it sucks but you think its great then you’re no longer teachable. you’ve reached your pinnacle. move on.

but even my sifu still practices his forms at the age of 60.

i don’t believe there’s anyone here that has completely grown out of forms. the forms hold keys. but if you don’t want the keys. fine. i do!!!

hsk

62

you were comparing them to other training methods and making a case as to why they aren’t mundane any modern stuff is. A case that I refuted.

As far as mixing up the training regiment that’s a normal part of the training, as far as using equipment, what if you don’t have any to use or a training partner well that’s when form training comes in handy.

you don’t need any equipment for a circuit, nor do you need it for shadowboxing.

But if your talking about shadow boxing then well that’s like doing forms on a very basic level.

Forms are very exciting and fun not mundane.

they are less dynamic that shadowboxing, which is why they are more mundane.

63

sure a form is something to master. So are basics. that doesn’t by default make them not mundane. However, that is a personal perspective, so there’s really no need in our debating it. What constitutes “keys” are respective to the art you are referring to.

64

sure. that’s right.

65

the only time i see sets boring or mundane is when i think i have mastered it.

no matter what, if we put down the set and come back to it later on in time you begin to lose that flare you once had. the fun part is getting it back.

plus i like to think i’m fighting someone when doing sets.

lastly, forms are a good way to let out stress after a long hard day. i have often told my sifu that if it weren’t for having my gung fu i would be in bad shape. but when im ****ed i do my forms. when im sad about something i do my forms.
afterwards i feel pretty good.

but yes you could get the same effect from hitting the bag or sparring someone as well.

you are right, no need to argue the point.

hsk

66

You say tomato I say tomato, fist of all I didn’t say shadow boxing is mundane it is exciting, so is forms training. Forms are for people that like them instead of doing generik work outs.

In Choy lee fut there are forms that contain several hundred movements, bust one of those forms out in full speed and full power and that’s the equivalent of running 5 miles in 5 minutes, not to say it increases your memory.

Any way I’m not sure what point we are dabating, I’m just trying to point out the benefits of forms training. It’s just a more sophisticated way to train.

67

try doing sup gee kow da 5 times full speed.

but forms do increase your memory. i feel forms is good because it makes you remember the new moves and such. the key to having a strong memory is to keep learning. thats why forms are food for your mind.

hsk

68

The forms fans here have said that there are extraneous movements in forms that are not used when fighting. This goes against one of the basic principles of modern training- that of specificity.

Modern, efficient training methods attempt to mimic the actual activity as closely as possible. Throwing in superfluous movements that must then be removed during the real activity (fighting) is a very inefficient way of learning.

Learning forms with movements that are not applicable when used for real teaches maladaptive motor movement patterns (i.e. bad habits).

69

Not even close. I challenge you to go the local running track and attempt to do a five minute mile. You will find there is no comparison. Most people who do forms cannot come close to running a five minute mile.

Any type of physical activity has been shown to increase memory.

70

IMO, forms fall into two categories. They are either training forms or fighting forms.

Training forms will have moves that may not have direct applications or will be in a sequence that doesn’t make fighting sense.

Fighting forms are just that, sequences of moves that simulate fighting. They are examples of how to combine the moves into fighting combos.

71

My point is that stance training builds endurance AND strength (at least enough for you to hold your body up in a lowered position)… this isn’t just some kind of general strength and endurance…its for a very specific purpose.

My point is that stance training develops the strength and endurance that allows you to do the kung fu foot work correctly…ie to be mobile/agile and yet keep your center of gravity low. In virtually all kinds of martial art when the center of gravity comes up you become more vulnerable.

(Incidentally some internal style fool ya with a high stance but often they’re actually more sunk into the ground then the external styles.)

This isn’t the same kind strength that is required for “explosiveness”…for that you need to do something akin to plyometric type exercises…which incidentally many styles of kung fu contain by virtue of the movement in their forms (ie quick direction changes, dropping into and exploding out of low stance.)

Do you understand what I’m saying now or would you like to discuss this further?

72

There is no correlation between being able to run a five-minute mile and doing forms. Just as a person who spars or fights MMA may or may not be able to run a 5-minute mile. They’re two different skill sets.
Having said that, I totally agree with your point that doing a form at full speed is NOT like running a five-minute mile. And I’m speaking as someone who has run many 5-minute miles… and I do forms as well. :slight_smile:

73

has anyone watched a gymnastics routine??? Is it just flipping around or just proper form in action. Forms are part of the beautiful [SIZE=“6”]ART[/SIZE] of Kung FU, forms also teach the practitioner proper movement.

You learn how to cunduct your self in a gracefull maner when in a sressful situation. Forms teach constant refinement in movement. As far as I’m concerned if you can’t look good when you fight then your just a brawler not a Martial Artist.

Kung Fu atracts people that are looking beond the external. Fighting is easy, looking good in a fight that’s onother story. Kung Fu forms are for the perfectionist and perfection is not an accident.

Creating beauty is found from within in kung fu and brought out. You can be but ugly perform a great set and you are transformed into a swan.

Who cares what people that don’t do forms think, I don’t but step in the ring with me and you will see how beauty can defeat the beast.

If I lose I won’t care because I’l be too busy looking pretty (Jim Kelly)

For the rest of you that don’t get it well I don’t expect you to that’s why the Chinese feel the way they do about Lofans when it comes to Kung Fu.

74

Exactly… gymnastics, ballet, modern dance, jazz dance, forms- pretty much all the same stuff.

That’s the problem with most TMA practitioners. They think that real fighting is going to look like what is done in the forms and two man sets.

Fighting is many times harder than any form a person will ever learn.

Does that mean you will be stepping into the ring at the upcoming full-contact event in your area?

75

“What has changed is our knowledge of training principles that maximize fighting ability”

I find this comment rather delusional, even though I understand your point and perspective Knifefighter.

The heydey of personal combat is long, long gone. Gladiators, Highlanders, Samurai, Fencers, Rough and Tumble wrestlers, Chinese bandits. You fought until you defeated your opponent and it often meant you killed them. Dead. Or, they killed you. It was all on the line.

I still know berserkers that will not lose, beat them with the hand, they get a stick, beat them with a stick they get a knife, beat the knife they get a gun, beat the gun they burn your farking house down, and god save you if you have a wife and children… These guys scare you before they even come around the corner, and they are crazy from the get go.

Get serious - sport is sport, real is real and the two do not share much, even if you pretend they do. So, talk about training methods, talk about developing skills, aggression, suffering pain and inflicting same, but nothing maximises fighting ability like fighting for your very life, as I’m sure more than one of you can attest to.

And, fighting for your life is a rare circumstance these days, whereas it was simply part of your training in times gone by. Many fell, fewer rose to fight again.

Ross made a comment in his rant about skill vs toughness. More than just a little insight there I reckon.

So, back to the question for all of us, what do you train and why? Is it so hard to accept that different people have different circumstances, different goals and different personalities? Yet the search for the panacea goes on…

Tell the guy suffering from Cystic fybrosis that form training is worthless, when its keeping his lungs functioning. Tell the hopelessly insecure pint-sized bloke that forms training is worthless, when it gives him his first ever taste of confidence. Tell the retarded kid who for once could defend himself from the village bullies that forms training is worthless…

I defy you to show me any form of training that doesn’t involve repetitive actions as a part of the system. Techniques, combinations, forms, how much different is it really?

Does it come down to numbers…a combination is 2-5 moves, but a form is anything over 5? If you practice a single leg takedown into a mount is that 2 techniques, a single combination or a small form? Or does it only depend on the number of times you do it. If you do it once a day its practicing applications, if you do it twice its a form?

Why not call a spade a spade, this is all about posturing, and has nothing to to with Kung fu. You really get a sense of small pen1s syndrone around here sometimes…

76

I agree with your following comment…

That’s the art, the refinement of the craft. But it has to be functional as well or it is just an art and the ‘martial’ part of the term ‘martial art’ is not required. So it may look good, like fight scenes in a movie may look good, but they may be less than practical or effective. Besides, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What looks good to me may not be so to you. We all have our biases.

For me, the beauty may not always be apparent to all of the onlookers, it may be somewhat hidden, but the results will speak for themself. There are no style-points in a fight.

Well, he didn’t end up looking too good in the end, did he. :wink:

77

You are right as far as weapons are concerned. In the past most fights to the death were done with weapons.
As far as unarmed combat, the athletes of today are probably heads above those of the past.

Sport is sport, but it is much closer to “real” than performing forms or standing in stances.

Put each of these people through modern training methodologies and each would be better prepared. Nobody is saying forms are worthless… just that there are better ways to train if your objective is fighting.

Perfect example of modern, efficient training vs. outdated, inefficient training.
When you perform a single to a mount using modern training methods, you have the feedback of another person who will gradually add resistance and throw counters as you go through the drill.
Forms have no resistance, no counters, and no feedback.

No, it’s about debating training principles.

78

Yum cha, these guys don’t get it, they just cut and paste and atack irellevant points that mean more when the post isn’t cut and pasted so they can get a jab in.

They just don’t understand, “father forgive them they know not what they do” (Jesus). You are trying to make sense to people that think that Jhon Wayne is the man when it come to fighting. It’s called the western mentality that’s why the rest of the world huffs and puffs at the U.S.

79

"The forms fans here have said that there are extraneous movements in forms that are not used when fighting. This goes against one of the basic principles of modern training- that of specificity.
"
yeah, no sh!t. there are no extreaneous movements-
plain and simple-listen real fuknclose,'cause I’m only gonna sya this till I’m blue in the face,
there are no extraneous movements, no non-fighting applications, no movement for movement sake in forms. Look, if you thought your art was important, and want to pass your art down intact, why in Gods name wiould you put crap into the forms? When will you guys ever get this through your thick effin skulls-if there are moves in your forms that have no application, then either you don’t understand the movement, or it’s made up bullsh!t. There is no in between. If you don’t see application in a traditional set, then either you are retarded, or your teacher sucks. There is no in between. and by the way, if your teacher is any good,..well guess what? It’s you. Now shut up and get on the short bus.

(I should drink more often-that was a **** good post!)

80

debating training principals

This is a mute point, Kung fu people train the same way MMA people train, that icludes circuit training, weights, cardio and all other aspects of conditioning. The only difference is In Kung fu we have a larger variety of training tools available to us.

Some say weapons training is antiquated, I say it’s just another for of conditioning hand eye coordination. Oh yea lets not forget that in kung fu the focus in the training is street fighting. Give me a broom and I’l house you with it.

Not to mention that certain individuals that I refuse to adress directly practice stick fighting, wich is taught by teaching set patterns (forms) and two man sets. I guess anyone who has had formal training would know that.

For instance the sinawally patern. Oh ask the guys that run the dog brothers events they can explain if you don’t know what that is.

I have friends that do bjj and you know what they showed me set drills(forms) translation a series of tech. that can be practiced without a partner.

Once again Traditional Kung Fu is more than just fighting, it’s about manetaining principles and ideals of a respected culture. It’s about [SIZE=“5”]Culture[/SIZE]
and you know what they say well some people just don’t have culture.