What has changed is our knowledge of training principles that maximize fighting ability.
stance training and forms
In the CMA you have guys that are good at forms and some are fighters, no matter what, forms are a necesary part of the training.
Forms develop power stregnth speed and stamina, wich are an essential part of fighting.
Sure one can jump rope or lift weights that is a lot easier to do, but how interesting is it to do. Modern forms of training are great and an easier way to get in shape, unfortunatly it is a mundane way to train and could get boring fast.
When doing forms training Your getting both an anarobic and an arobic work out, while maintaning flexibility, working on focus,memory, and developing your fighting tech.
Then you have fighting this is an arena to help you develop your tech. In some cases you have to abandon some of the pretty stuff in the forms, but then again some people are involved in the CMA to build not just the external but the internal.
Sure is it harder to learn Kung Fu to fight over MMA?? Of course it is, but then again that is why it’s called an [SIZE=“5”]ART[/SIZE] . Everything else is just a sport.
some people just are not capable of understanding what traditional training entails as a whole, and are not able to put it to actual use in thier regime.
this doesnt bother people that make use of the applicable traditional methods. it makes us laugh.
these people will never understand, not truly, though they may think they do. they dont.
To be a traditional training program it MUST contain elements of modernity. this is essential to follow along the path of change and to adapt accordingly with its flow, non resistance. those who claim to be traditional yet resist this practice are in fact very far from traditional, they have created a static practice within the belief that ancient ways alone mean traditional. Traditionality entails a way of being, a way that is deeply entwined within the culture that the tradition was started.
Tradition does not deny the modern. This is a MYTH that many believe.
And that’s why most “modern” fighters are better- because they don’t do forms as a “necessary” part of their training.
Not easier… just more effective… not the jump rope, but the weights.
Yeah, right.
using that logic, there is potential in tae bo…
the thing that many people dont take into effect is change. things do change, but with every change there is opportunity for potential. the greater the change, the greater the potential. this applies to all scales. from single one on one combat, to the evolution of man and his creations through time.
I do agree with you here - you had the greater change.
if you train with this in mind as well as a multitude of other elements, and act upon the changes accordingly, there should be no reason why your art should deminish in its effectiveness.
bad training methodology will diminish it. Also, there may be a better way of training something. As you said, the greater the change…
Not really sure what your point is here. Nobody ever said you don’t need endurance. The point was that is doesn’t build strength.
An argument for forms
A form contains a series of techniques that can be used in combination or alone.
Forms are the defining elements of a style.
Forms are a way to practice and refine your technique without a training partner, just like shadow boxing.
I consider forms to be a part of my training, just like weight training, aerobic conditioning, drills and sparring.
I think learning forms are essential to learning kung fu.
BUT if all you do is forms or if all you do is try to collect as many forms as possible then this to me, is not the best way to become a more effective fighter.
To me, these are the benefits of form training.
- learn technique
- increase speed and agility
- increase body awareness
- Improve full body fluid motion
- increase flexibility
- cardio vascular benenfits
When I learn a form, I take the techniques and I try to perform them on my wooden dummy. I then take those same techniques and do them on the heavy bag. I then drill the techniques with a partner. Then I attempt to apply them in sparring.
I would say that if you do ANY kind of technique training on your own like sahdow boxing then you are basically doing a form. The difference between that and a kug fu form is, its a longer string of different techniques and many people (including some who are actually doing the form) don’t understand all the applications for the techniques. The techniques that are not understood are therefore considered to be pointless. I would agree that if you don’t understand a technique but you are doing it in a form then it is pointless.
One last thing, many of these misunderstood techniques when applied properly can be very unexpected in a combat situation and can make the difference in winning and loosing.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that doing forms is the only way to train for fighting. I realize that there are many effective training methods that don’t include forms at all. Form training is one way to train. How effective it is or how much it applys, in my opinion, depends on the individual.
were you to take the one element in tae bo that holds potential and at it to your program, you have then made use of tae bo’s applicable qualities.
i did have the greater change 
this is correct, the bad habits will diminish any trade. i would label myself as a TCMA, yet at the same time i include several elements from external sources into my style. does this take away from the fact of me being kung fu man, i dont think so. I just happen to apply other ideas to my training.
Take late master CTS for instance. Im sure we can all agree he was one of the few to touch our generations that could be considered a kung fu master. yet at the same time he knew western boxing… this did not make him a boxer, this made him an smart kung fu man. he just used what he liked and added it to his personal style, and left out what he didnt need. thats what kung fu is. its an accumulation of usable techniques. before other ideas were present they used what was there. The animals, and thier own bodies. process of elimination. today we have the ability to add many other ideas to our kung fu.
Originally Posted by Knifefighter
The fact that you have to look at these forms and then do an intrepretation of what they mean shows that this is an antiquated approach compared to modern standards.
Are you saying you don’t drill? 'Cause I’ve never seen a drill that works 100% of the time without some interpritation… What about combos? I have seen many a fighter go out there and fight without using a single combo, too. But they loose rather badly.:rolleyes:
If I choose to start by using my teacher’s drills and combos, is this wrong? And if he, in tern, chooses to teach me the same combos and drills his teacher first taught him? 
I honestly fail to see what if inefficiant about that…:rolleyes:
My first post on this topic was in reference to a comment made by TenTigers that was so absolutly true about martial arts schools, it astounds me that people like you fail so badly to see it. You have based your oppinions off of an ideal you either got from personnal experience or from observation.
Now, keeping in mind the the simplest answer is usualy true, aske yoyrself if what you saw worked? If no, then ask why it is still in use after so many centuries.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that it would not have… Just because you fail to grasp why someone else is doing something you don’t agree with or understand, doesn’t make it wrong for everyone else.
I don’t have any clue as to how one would publish a magazine. So would that quallify me to crisisize Gene on how he runs KFO? Nope. You don’t do forms and see no point in doing them. Does this qualify you to give advise about doing forms… Nope.
what’s the big deal
Forms are just a tool. Great for muscle memory. So what?
In boxing, I wasn’t allowed to hit the heavy bag or spar until my mechanics hitting air were right. When I got sloppy during sparring, my coach made me pay for it by making me go back to hours of shadow boxing. It’s just a tool. And it fixed my mistakes. I wouldn’t be able to fix them while my partner is taking my head off.
not really. I can vary pad drills all day and you will never be bored because I am constantl changing the combinations. I can put together a circuit of exercises and vary the exercises each session. A form on the other hand is always the same form. you can vary the speed and the tension, but that’s about it. Now, which is more mundane?
When doing forms training Your getting both an anarobic and an arobic work out, while maintaning flexibility, working on focus,memory, and developing your fighting tech.
how is that different from padwork, sparring, bagwork or shadowboxing? They all do the exact same thing.
Sure is it harder to learn Kung Fu to fight over MMA?? Of course it is, but then again that is why it’s called an [SIZE=“5”]ART[/SIZE] . Everything else is just a sport.
I wouldn’t say harder. It takes longer by design, but that doesn’t make it harder.
modern?
Sorry, I had considered shadowboxing a type of forms training. Nothing modern about it.
Many of the anti-form people don’t consider that forms are a type of shadow boxing. That is just not how they want to see it, so they don’t.
you’re missing his point. He’s saying that you should not have to extrapolate the application of a technique from a form; it should be shown from the get go, as opposed to being hidden in the form.
My first post on this topic was in reference to a comment made by TenTigers that was so absolutly true about martial arts schools, it astounds me that people like you fail so badly to see it. You have based your oppinions off of an ideal you either got from personnal experience or from observation.
as we pointed out, that paragraph by TT really isn’t true… fighting has changed, tactically if nothing else.
Now, keeping in mind the the simplest answer is usualy true, aske yoyrself if what you saw worked? If no, then ask why it is still in use after so many centuries.
I hate that argument. we still drive cars after all this time, but are we still driving a model T? we still use projectile weapons, but why aren’t we using slingshots?
I don’t have any clue as to how one would publish a magazine. So would that quallify me to crisisize Gene on how he runs KFO? Nope. You don’t do forms and see no point in doing them. Does this qualify you to give advise about doing forms… Nope.
knife and I both have a traditional background. We have indeed done forms before.
the main difference is that shadowboxing is dynamic. forms are not. It’s always the same form. The intent is somewhat different as well. You can argue that because you are working technique and hitting air that they are the same. If you choose to argue that, then so be it…
Hate to sound like Lao Tzu but the strenth of TMA is also it’s greatest weakness…
For example, TMA assumes attacks from all directions, no time to square off, assume a stance, etc… ie there is no “structure”… whereas most so called combat sports assume a basic position and work from there… the problem is, learning to throw everyting equally, from both sides, from all positions, is an imposing task…
TMA teaches forms as a movement study, rather than a set single application, it has multiple possibilities, it is adaptable to situations, that’s great if you’ve been doing it for 15 plus years, for a newbie
you’re missing his point. He’s saying that you should not have to extrapolate the application of a technique from a form; it should be shown from the get go, as opposed to being hidden in the form.
If you dont fight, you probably wont get it. If you do a lot of bag work, 2 person drills and sparring, nobody should have to explain it. If you were teaching a kid how to shoot a gun, would the first thing you taught them be what parts on a persons body to aim for for highest lethality, or would you show them how to use the gun and get proficient for a while first? I think a factor also is that to be a truly skilled at anything past a certain point, you need to be able to become your own teacher instead of only looking TO your teacher for the next step. That is the whole idea..if you get a form, you can take that thing, work it for 10 years on your own, and as long as you work at keeping good body mechanics, making live drills out of the techniques, etc, you can be a very proficient fighter that also has material they could teach to another person that may have a different build, mindset, etc and may find something different they like technique and usage wise out of the same set. Yeah it sure is useless LOL. People could argue that the jab is useless too, or or clinching, or whatever, its all based on context.
“I hate generalizations”
speaking in terms of a newbie, you shouldn’t expect them to extrapolate anything. And even still, there are several applications to each technique, some may involve things he hasn’t learned yet. He can’t extrapolate what he has not been shown in this case. Also, IME, you start doing forms before you start sparring.
I think a factor also is that to be a truly skilled at anything past a certain point, you need to be able to become your own teacher instead of only looking TO your teacher for the next step. That is the whole idea..if you get a form, you can take that thing, work it for 10 years on your own, and as long as you work at keeping good body mechanics, making live drills out of the techniques, etc, you can be a very proficient fighter that also has material they could teach to another person that may have a different build, mindset, etc and may find something different they like technique and usage wise out of the same set.
that’s fine and good, but you cannot teach yourself when you are just beginning. He11, boxers, wrestlers, etc. evolve their own style and preferences over time - that’s a natural progression and you don’t need forms to do it. an infighter will explore how to make the most of his infighting techniques and his head movement. an outboxer will explore using things like his jab and teep to their fullest capability. The result is fighters with the same training developing different specialties and abilities, which is ideal.
Yeah it sure is useless LOL. People could argue that the jab is useless too, or or clinching, or whatever, its all based on context.
the jab has offensive and defensive purposes, you cannot argue it as useless, realistically, other than stating why it’s unnecessary in a grappling match, where it is illegal anyway. You may, however, be able to argue the clinch.
Forms
Seven star I was refering to the benefit of forms training not pad drills. Most styles including kung fu incoorperate pad drills, thats an elementary part of the training.
As far as mixing up the training regiment that’s a normal part of the training, as far as using equipment, what if you don’t have any to use or a training partner well that’s when form training comes in handy.
But if your talking about shadow boxing then well that’s like doing forms on a very basic level.
Forms are very exciting and fun not mundane.