korean? I know africa and brazil, but wouldn’t have guessed korea. is there a specific art where the headbutt is prominent, or is it just a general regional technique that is used?
/Rant
Train more, talk less. And I like hearing that stances cannot be used in a fight, maybe someone could explain to me how I used them yesterday to smash my opponents legs, destabilize him, and throw him?
Fighting is fighting, but just because you havent seen it before doesnt mean it isnt being done. The deeper you go in any style of fighting, the higher the level of refinement in technique. Past a certain point, even fellow practicioners of what you do dont get how you do some of it, or what you are doing, so how do you expect the average person that likes fighting to understand those subtleties? It never ceases to amaze me that just because something becomes commonly accepted, especially on here, that it somehow makes it ‘more right’.
I train with one guy that has worked hung gar for almost 35 years for 25+ years now he has been specializing on hitting someone in the eyes, liver and spleen. According to this place, you CANT aim for those spots and hope to hit them under pressure. Tell that to him.
I dont know if maybe a lot of TCMA schools dont train hard or correctly or what, but I am always in amazement at these posts. If you just do it alot, the puzzle puts itself together for you, I cant think of a single movement I have learned that doesnt have quite a few applications in combat, most of them simple. Hang around the treachery of old men for a while, and you may think differently.
Originally Posted by TenTigers
Bottom line-if you are practicing a Traditional Chinese Martial Art, and it is not effective, it’s not the art that sucks.
anyone with any questions whether TCMA is effective or not should read this line over and over until they understand it.
Amen…I wish I had thought of that.
“the typical definition of tradional is people who train stances and forms as opposed to more “modern” things like bagwork, mittwork, weight training,”
evidently, the typical definition has been created by people completely ignorant of actual traditional Martial Arts training. These are things that perhaps someone who has taken several months at a commercial McKwoon, or reads books and magazines, as opposed to actual experience.
I don’t know ANY AUTHENTIC, traditional Chinese Martial Arts school that does not use focus pads,heavybags, weight training,hard contact, and conditioning.
Of course we don’t want to name names, so please don’t start listing these schools, unless you wish to do so in PM. But I can name several in NY area that you can walk into and you will not see what you seem to think is TCMA, and these are the schools in my opinion and experience that are exactly that.
“There is a difference between using your footwork against nobody and using it against an opponent. Likewise, there is a difference between using all of your techniques full force against the air using them against an opponent.”
This again is not how TCMA is trained or practiced-properly
umm, btw-I have had people grab my wrist. Also, it is taught to Police and LEOs for weapon retention. Many women are grabbed as wellas youths. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Pulling a jacket over someone’s head has been around as long as there were jackets. What, you think Hockey players invented it?
My Korean transliteration may be off but it sounds like “bok chi gi” or head striking… my wife jokes about how common a tactic it is, and I know tons of WW II era stories about rude soldiers (both US and Russian) getting head butted by irate Korea farmers… also, two of Tae Kyon’s original 12 techniques are variations on a head butt.
In the preface of his book on Kum La Sau (written in 1936), Liu Jin Sheng says-
“…If we speak about the salvation of our Motherland, first of all we have to advocate our national martial art to keep up people’s spirit. Although recently the central authorities following instructions of the prime-minister encourage exercises in national martial arts and both in the center and in provinces schools of national martial art were founded, but besides wrestling, only two schools, Shaolin and Wudang, were noticeably spread. Also, individual training (mastering of forms) is prevalent in those institutions but the applied aspect of techniques learnt is ignored. Therefore, if a man who has been exercising, say, even for twenty or thirty years and who engages a western boxer or a Japanese judo wrestler, he will surely be defeated. Striving for nice-looking movements without practical use and absence of fighting spirit are at the bottom of it. In this way we shall lose little by little all the heritage of our ancestors who brilliantly used all methods and techniques in a combat. Now foreigners say with a touch of irony that the Chinese martial art is nothing else but a dance with energetic movements. Our ancestors knew how to drill by twos, one against another, and alone. They were able to employ various techniques one after another in a fight, attacking continuously the enemy so that he had no time to defend himself, nothing to say about fighting back. That is why such well-known generals of the Ming dynasty as Qi Jiguang, Yu Dayou and others encouraged a practical approach to training and rejected all showy and perfunctory things [with Qi Ji Guang writing in the 1500’s!]. They made a glorious mark in the history.”
Liu later says, “Today sciences develop, all branches of knowledge improve from day to day. Only our national martial art does not make any progress…”
“Over the past few months, I’ve read a few Republican era gung fu books, and there seems, at least to me, to be a pattern of most of the authors not being very concerned about style or position, while being more concerned with effectiveness and cultivation. Most of the authors made a call to find the applicative and functional side to gung fu, and in some instances, like with the author Tang Hao, a call to expose and denounce the mythical/unrealistic/non-functional side to gung fu.”
This was in another forum-made up of TCMA guys-Illusionfist is the contributor/
He then goes on to comment:
“I’ve learned a lot about what the “elders” thought about gung fu by reading these books. I feel that most westerners and modern Chinese are equally deluded when it comes to understanding the efficacy of gung fu methods. If we look to the written evidence, there has been a clarion call for realistic, effective training for centuries.”
so, what are your thoughts? (Thanx, Chris)
To be more correct, we say that it is much harder to hit someone in the eyes when they are moving and resisting. which is VERY true. out of curiosity, how has this friend trained to really hit someone so accurately in such a soft, vulnerable place without hurting them?
as for the spleen, I’ve never seen it mentioned as such a target, and we’ve NEVER said that about the liver. matter of factly, we had a recent post about liver shots and their effectiveness. boxer julio cesar chavez was a master of them…
sweet. ya learn something new every day!
[QUOTE=TenTigers evidently, the typical definition has been created by people completely ignorant of actual traditional Martial Arts training. These are things that perhaps someone who has taken several months at a commercial McKwoon, or reads books and magazines, as opposed to actual experience.
I don’t know ANY AUTHENTIC, traditional Chinese Martial Arts school that does not use focus pads,heavybags, weight training,hard contact, and conditioning.
Of course we don’t want to name names, so please don’t start listing these schools, unless you wish to do so in PM. But I can name several in NY area that you can walk into and you will not see what you seem to think is TCMA, and these are the schools in my opinion and experience that are exactly that.[/quote]
I don’t disagree that these things are used. rock pole, pulleys, vases, etc. are the equivalent of strength training. Not all schools today do these things though. No need for names.
This again is not how TCMA is trained or practiced-properly
according to david 43515, one of the benefits of forms is that you can strike full power with all of your strikes, and that you can’t do that while sparring. If he’s not hitting air, then what is he hitting?
Also, it is taught to Police and LEOs for weapon retention.
different animal and situation. They are grabbing the wrist to control the weapon arm - the assailant is not grabbing THEIR wrist.
Pulling a jacket over someone’s head has been around as long as there were jackets. What, you think Hockey players invented it?
you mean they didn’t?? seriously though, it is a tactical difference. Not only that, but it’s one that is quite possibly regional, which brings up a whole different issue. I gotta say though, of all the “my master had x challenge match” stories, I’ve not yet heard one where this was done.
proof in action
I had a friend back in the day that i used to hang with alot. we would spar all the time.
neither one of had any formal training, mainly movies a few pointers from the older generation thats about it though.
I had not seen him for several years. I saw him just over a week ago. Told him i had been practicing traditional chinese martial arts for a while. he was eager to see the difference in the way i work.
we always used to be pretty toe to toe. now he cant even touch me.
the only difference in our lives…TCMA
proof enough for me.
say all you want to discount my experience…:rolleyes:
I’ve heard similar before. shuai chiao drills in the manner described, as opposed to using the long forms. they also engage in sparring and other things. About two years ago, mantis 108 had a thread where he described the (for lack of a better term) de-evolution of CMA, combt wise. how, back in the day there was lots of drilling and only one or two forms through today, where it is the complete opposite - lots of forms with little drilling.
for some reason I’m in a debate mood today, so sure, let’s discount it. nothing against you, I like all of your posts, but since I’m being a devil’s advocate…
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you were friends. That indicates a mindset contrary to fighting. I’ve seen street fighters and tma slapbox - the tma held his own. It was in the real fight - where the mentality was completely different - that he got owned.
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you have trained in SOMETHING. arguably, any training is better than none. a better test would be if you two had both been training during your separation.
head butt
Love you differences in cultural combat styles post. That’s so true. I learned to head butt from a Brit that I used to fence with. He was a rugby player, and we got a lot of mileage out of it in fencing. You see, I had this solid stainless steel mask. I could drop in like a bowling ball into someone’s sternum when we went corp-a-corp. It wasn’t a legal move, so I got a lot of warnings, but never pushed it to the point of getting disqualified. Meanwhile, my opponents would be have this great flinch reflex instilled in them, so a little body feint could produce an opening. And if it didn’t and I lost, at least I hurt the dude. 
Anyway, different fighting cultures and fighting styles are the key factor. MMA fighters have convinced the current martial world that the ring is the world, and not just another fighting culture. MMA is its own fighting culture so MMA works best there.
True, it is less restricted, but it is far from everyday fighting. For one thing, those fighters are highly trained and in peak physical condition. I try not to get in real fights with those sorts of people 
Most of the ‘real’ fights I get into are as a psych tech, so I usually fight people under the influence. TCMA works fine for me there.
Seven, regarding the practice of hitting the eyes, or any finger attacks from people that use them a lot, it tends to follow this pattern from my experience.
1)lots of finger conditioning, including exercises that not only strengthen your fingers but instill muscle memory and body confidence in the use of the fingers on targets.
2)drilling the movements in the air in shadowboxing style situations on a regular basis, as well as specializing a lot of the time in counterattack type movements, slipping, etc
3)picking different targets like speed bags, wooden dummy, spot on a moving heavy bag, etc, and touch it with your fingers in the middle of doing your bag work, as well as trying to develop body awareness of exactly where your hands are in several ways.
4)learning how to hide/telegraph those movements the least amount possible.
Those 4 together add up to a person being used to using the technique with confidence, and being able to set it up well. If anything, the hard part is when the partner speeds up the sparring since it become much harder NOT to use it on them. Not a lot of mystery there, just a lot of work. You can apply a similar regimen to most types of movements and get them proficient over time ie: drill it multiple ways, both with and without resistance, and on moving targets.
Yeah it would be nice to know somebody with replacable eyes to practice on, but I havent found that person yet, tell me if you meet them.
the methods of toughening fingers for use in thrusting, poking or jabbing have a lot to do with a couple of things.
compression of the finger and relief of neuralgia through desensitization.
THere are no muscles on the fingers themselves and grip strength is dependent on hand muscles but more on forearm muscles that control the lengths of the ligatures that in turn open and close the fingers.
the compression exercises are both slow work and striking work. the striking work has the side effect of relieving the neuralgia to some extent.
It’s not a common thing to do, it takes a long time before you get it to the level that we see portrayed in movies, so it’s not likely that it’s a common weapon developed.
Palms and fists seem to win the day, so the thing that finger thrusts have when trained properly for the purpose of striking a hard target is that they’re not all that commonly used and pretty much non extant in mma type sports due to rules and equipment used.
TCMA Training Perspective…
Hand to hand combat wasn’t deemed as the most essential combat skill according to General Qi Jiguang. But it is a great way for physical education for the troops as he pointed out. This is military view; civilian perspective is a different matter.
Pugilism in old Chinese perspective is more geared towards conditioning or building a sound mind in a sound body. The mystic approach of training pugilism is IMHO for having a uniformed knowledge base so that transmission and transformation of knowledge can take place with relative ease and efficiency. This is a rather unique feature in traditional Kung Fu. The idea is that a simple man can become a soldier and if given the oppotunity can become a commander, who would have knowledge of battle formation, logistics, etc, while at the same time working on his own salvation (spiritual quest). OF course, this is much easier said then done.
Kung Fu is trailing behind other modern MA in the combat sport department is like some of you pointed out that the training methodology is getting off the mark. It is not that we don’t have all the conditioning stuff - cardiovascular, strength, coordination, impact, etc. We simply theorized too much and can no longer function at the optimal range. I often said that Kung Fu nowaday is like animal that inbreeding too much that we got a lame monster at hand. We have forgotten how real street fight is like. We have over theorized and over analysized street fighting. Worst of all, we stop learning from and paying attention to reality. Take simple the headlock for example, it’s the most common street fighting thing. How many Kung Fu people drill that? How many forms in Kung Fu actually teach to use them and to counter that? If you look at Judo and BJJ, this is one of the most basic things that they drill WITHOUT form. Having said that does that mean that we don’t have that or we can’t do that in Kung Fu? Certainly not! It is just a matter of refoucsing the training methodology.
Going back to the basic even going back to the drawing board is what Kung Fu needed in this literally highly competitive market.
Mantis108
the simple fact that being trained in any trade and have it produce any form of positive results, indicates that there is potential within that particular activity.
the thing that many people dont take into effect is change. things do change, but with every change there is opportunity for potential. the greater the change, the greater the potential. this applies to all scales. from single one on one combat, to the evolution of man and his creations through time.
if you train with this in mind as well as a multitude of other elements, and act upon the changes accordingly, there should be no reason why your art should deminish in its effectiveness.
traditional chinese martial art has never remained stagnant, this goes against one of the foundary priciples within its creation and continual evolution. change. each master will recieve teachings as a pupil, and with these teachings they learn the skills that their teacher can give to them, as best as the teacher can dispense them. this is the duty of the teacher, it is the quest. to find the student you feel is capable of recieving all you have to offer, and to create a better practitioner than you ever have been. IF this cycle is completed traditionaly, then the art continues to change, flourish, grow, evolve and ADAPT with each generation that is a part of this traditional process. because that generation is alive in the moment and capable of understanding change and modern times.
the problem is that this is not a process that continues on a scale that it should. there have been set backs, and delusions.
- stances are never used in a fight - at least not statically. A lot of cma train them statically. stances are transitional and should be trained as such. this is another training methodology difference. “modern” styles don’t spend a lot of time on stance straining. footwork drills teach you how to move. Also, stance training doesn’t increase strength, like many think. It increases muscle ENDURANCE.
And why do you need muscle endurance?
A: So you can maintain your stance during a fight to keep your center of gravity low.
And why do you need to keep your center of gravity low?
A: You lose your connection to the ground and your center of gravity comes up and you “float,” making you that much easier to take down. No root, no legs and all the fancy hand technique in the world doesn’t really mean ****.
Maybe not a waste of time, but a pretty inefficient way to spend 10 to 15 years.
The fact that you have to look at these forms and then do an intrepretation of what they mean shows that this is an antiquated approach compared to modern standards.
Dang! too long to put this in my sig…
But that was very, very well put.
Especially the first paragraph.
Beautiful.
