I put up some vids for ya all

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1128342]I have always believed that for the “Lou” of the “Gou Lou Cai”, the “tiger mouth - between your thumb and your 1st finger” should face to your opponent and not face to yourself. You control your opponent’s arm like holding a baseball bat (like Taiji Lu). It’s much easier to change it into a shoulder lock or elbow lock. Also you can control your opponent’s leading arm much better.

What do you guys think about this?[/QUOTE]

Hmmmmmm, interesting approach! I have never seen it done that way before.

Then do the gou and lou end up working the same way as shuang feng shou (double seal hands)?
Or are they merely transitional to the cai?

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1128342]I have always believed that for the “Lou” of the “Gou Lou Cai”, the “tiger mouth - between your thumb and your 1st finger” should face to your opponent and not face to yourself. You control your opponent’s arm like holding a baseball bat (like Taiji Lu). It’s much easier to change it into a shoulder lock or elbow lock. Also you can control your opponent’s leading arm much better.

What do you guys think about this?[/QUOTE]

Ying Jow Pai guys will do it that way. We have it that way in a couple of forms - White Ape Exits the Cave - prior to the double knees comes to mind off the top of the ol’ head. Just the grabbing motion - I mean.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1128342]I have always believed that for the “Lou” of the “Gou Lou Cai”, the “tiger mouth - between your thumb and your 1st finger” should face to your opponent and not face to yourself. You control your opponent’s arm like holding a baseball bat (like Taiji Lu). It’s much easier to change it into a shoulder lock or elbow lock. Also you can control your opponent’s leading arm much better.

What do you guys think about this?[/QUOTE]

In Hung Gar we have a similar technique called “Seizing” which grips the arm in this way.

To apply it, there is no Hook (like in mantis), there is only 2 tiger claw grabs, controlling their arm.

ginosifu

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[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1128265]you ever throw anyone off that balcony your on in training? Now that would be super awesome and the chicks would love it. :D[/QUOTE]

The trick is after taking the fall, to stand up and say, “yeah - I meant to do that”. Then the chicks really want ya.

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[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1128347]Hmmmmmm, interesting approach! I have never seen it done that way before.

Then do the gou and lou end up working the same way as shuang feng shou (double seal hands)?
Or are they merely transitional to the cai?[/QUOTE]

Richard

stand right guard to right guard, the opponent reaches their right out and we touch right arm to right arm. Just turn your right hand to grab their wrist and your left hand is palm face up and grabs near the elbow. Now you have YouKnowWho’s baseball bat grip on their arm.

ginosifu

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[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1128347]Then do the gou and lou end up working the same way as shuang feng shou (double seal hands)?
Or are they merely transitional to the cai?[/QUOTE]

You will have much stronger “pulling” power for your Lou when your tiger mouth is facing to your opponent. When your tiger mouth faces to yourself, you just don’t have much “pulling” power.

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[QUOTE=-N-;1128304]If you slightly decrease the vertical space and reach more from greater distance, your motion will be faster and more aggressive.

I don’t worry too much on receiving. Easier to take the fight to the other person.[/QUOTE]

My tendency is to get close, real close. I borrow heavily from boxing, you see it with the quick “idiot walk” or “robot walking” that I do in the vid. I like to protect my head, get tight, then explode once I caught their rhythm. I’ll go offensive usually with a jab - again, put the jab out there maybe once or twice to gauge their reaction. If they keep doing the same ol’ thing like a gua style block (I said “pak” meant “gua” in the vid) then I’ll feed off of it - look at around 1:18 in the vid.

This is all habit because I usually only practice “live” anymore and that’s how I compensate for the unpredictability of fighting.

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[QUOTE=ginosifu;1128357]Richard

stand right guard to right guard, the opponent reaches their right out and we touch right arm to right arm. Just turn your right hand to grab their wrist and your left hand is palm face up and grabs near the elbow. Now you have YouKnowWho’s baseball bat grip on their arm.

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

Yes, I understood that. What you describe is the second hand movement of Bai Yuan Chu Dong.

I just don’t see that as comparable to gou lou cai if both hands maintain their hold. And since I know John is well aware of the difference between the two methods, I wanted to make sure that I understood what he meant.

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[QUOTE=ginosifu;1128332]We have in our Angry Monkey Fist a similar Hook / Control / Strike. I like to call it Hook, Slap Strike though. The first hand is more a deflecting hook hand (Not a Dui Sau). The second is more of an Iron Palm Slap to redirect the arm. Then there is the strike, which can be any hand (Fist, Back Hand, Finger Jab etc) does not matter. You can see it a little here at about 1:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKuZpw8tteM&feature=player_embedded#!

Good stuff MightyB !

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

Nice vid - I’m serious when I say that grapplers should pick up monkey style because it fits with their low entries.

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[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1128367]Yes, I understood that. What you describe is the second hand movement of Bai Yuan Chu Dong.

I just don’t see that as comparable to gou lou cai if both hands maintain their hold. And since I know John is well aware of the difference between the two methods, I wanted to make sure that I understood what he meant.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure what YouKnowWho had in mind next. You can still release the right hand to strike (still holding palm face up grip with your left hand). It does not seem related to the gou / lou / chui? though.

ginosifu

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[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1128367]Yes, I understood that. What you describe is the second hand movement of Bai Yuan Chu Dong.

I just don’t see that as comparable to gou lou cai if both hands maintain their hold. And since I know John is well aware of the difference between the two methods, I wanted to make sure that I understood what he meant.[/QUOTE]

It’s always nice to pull your opponent’s head into your punch when you apply Gou Lou Cai Shou instead of just move in yourself for your punch. A head on collusion is the best case for striking, a strong pulling can help to achieve that. Beside that, the pulling can set up almost any throw that you want to execute. It can open another door for you. If you keep your left hand Lou on your opponent’s elbow, push your right hand on your opponent’s neck, and hook his leading leg, you can take your opponent down with your “front cut”.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1128363]You will have much stronger “pulling” power for your Lou when your tiger mouth is facing to your opponent. When your tiger mouth faces to yourself, you just don’t have much “pulling” power.[/QUOTE]

OK, I see your point on that.

I guess my question is, Does the cai consist of a jerking action of the lou shou, or a combined jerking action of the gou shou and lou shou?

If I were using the method you describe for grappling, I see its superiority. I just question whether there would be a loss of speed in getting in a punch with the pluck if both hands are locked on the opponent’s arm.

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[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1128376]OK, I see your point on that.

I guess my question is, Does the cai consist of a jerking action of the lou shou, or a combined jerking action of the gou shou and lou shou?

If I were using the method you describe for grappling, I see its superiority. I just question whether there would be a loss of speed in getting in a punch with the pluck if both hands are locked on the opponent’s arm.[/QUOTE]
You will have much strong jerking motion this way because your pulling power is stronger.

You can even just use your Lou to press your opponent’s leading arm to jam his back arm. That elbow control (1 point contact) by itself should be sufficient IMO. This will give you a free hand to do whatever that you want to do.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1128385]You will have much strong jerking motion this way because your pulling power is stronger.[/QUOTE]

Agreed!

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1128385]You can even just use your Lou to press your opponent’s leading arm to jam his back arm. That elbow control (1 point contact) by itself should be sufficient IMO. This will give you a free hand to do whatever that you want to do.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is how I play it. I use lou shou as a press rather than a pull.

Though I believe the gou lou cao keyword theories would support your method.

Thank you for the clarification!

MightyB,
You started a great discussion! Meat & potatoes type of stuff!

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1128335]in 1998 Goju was named a Koryu and a Bujutsu stye by the Dai Nippon, so I am NOT sure where ANY japanese would get that view, unless they were making it up themselves.
Of course my time in Japan was devoted to Judo and Kyokushin and since kyokushin came from Goju, no one ever had anything bad to say about it.[/QUOTE]

Back in the 80’s, a Japanese friend was saying that the Shotokan guys looked down on Goju as being not macho enough as well as foreign(Five Ancestors connection).

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1128365]My tendency is to get close, real close. I borrow heavily from boxing, you see it with the quick “idiot walk” or “robot walking” that I do in the vid. I like to protect my head, get tight, then explode once I caught their rhythm.[/QUOTE]

Same here, but at that close range we’re not using au lou choi as much as elbows, and body striking with shoulder and hips, and takedowns.

We use that head guard as you showed in the clip. We consider that the close range version of flipping palm that you see as long short guard in the forms.

Au lou choi at that close range can be a problem due to the acute bend of the elbow as well as the second hand opening the guard too much.

For us, we also refer to au lou choi as “intercept, control, strike”. At close range, there is no need to intercept because you are already engaged.

This is like what Brendan posted in the other thread.

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1128005]The apparent ‘problem’ in sparring with Tanglang (or at least the problem that people seem to have these days, especially in the west) is that techniques such as gou, lou, cai, diao shou, shuang feng shou, di lou chui, tou shou etc are techniques which are generally employed in the initial phase/first contact of a self defence situation or an assault. Sparring works the aspect of the conflict that is the back and forth exchange that takes place after that initial point. In the case of Tanglang, this is the part that is largely dominated by its Longfist component (i.e. punches and kicks). Once you get into clinch it moves to duanda (knees, elbows and butting) then na/shuai.[/QUOTE]

Here’s a gif of the range we more commonly use au lou choi. Jab, mantis hook, inside au lou choi in this case.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1128385]You will have much strong jerking motion this way because your pulling power is stronger.

You can even just use your Lou to press your opponent’s leading arm to jam his back arm. That elbow control (1 point contact) by itself should be sufficient IMO. This will give you a free hand to do whatever that you want to do.[/QUOTE]

We consider au lou choi to be a striking method, and we don’t put as much emphasis on the pulling or pushing.

We feel that gives too much force for the other person to read, and it compromises the main strength of Mantis which is its speed and explosiveness.

For us, our ideal is for the 1st and 2nd hands to be as undetectable as possible.

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[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1128376]OK, I see your point on that.

I guess my question is, Does the cai consist of a jerking action of the lou shou, or a combined jerking action of the gou shou and lou shou?[/QUOTE]

For us, we look at the strike as the pluck or cai. The pluck is to “take” what you want with your strike.

The idea is that with au and lou, the opponent is unable to prevent you from taking what you want.

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[QUOTE=-N-;1128429]We consider au lou choi to be a striking method, and we don’t put as much emphasis on the pulling or pushing.

We feel that gives too much force for the other person to read, and it compromises the main strength of Mantis which is its speed and explosiveness.

For us, our ideal is for the 1st and 2nd hands to be as undetectable as possible.[/QUOTE]

True Dat! That’s where I see it too -

I was thinking through what YouKnowWho brought up and it sounds a lot like an arm drag.

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Excellent posts guys!