impresions ,
i’m not one to pass on rumors or interpetaions on a open forum since i wasn’t there , that would be disrespectful , to the school and to the person that spoke to me ,
but he helped me to understand the mentality , and that inturn helps me to understand the reasoning behind the wording ,
Good posts guys.
Concerning Traps…
In my opinion, things that become traps can be things people blindly follow - and things they do not fully understand. A system, in and of itself, can become a trap. That is, until you discover the nature of that system and your own identity; when you finally understand that particular ‘thing’ and if it reinforces what you understand about yourself. Swimming can be a trap if you’ve never swam before. Once you actually learn the different methods of swimming, is it really a trap anymore? Or do you do what is necessary to swim?
Could the same be said about the various methods within martial arts? If certain methods are in contradiction with what is practical (direct, simple and efficient) then maybe that method does not belong. But if it does, and it’s something you have never learned before, is it worth learning? I think, in the end, things that become understood are things one knows how to let go of. In that sense, things (like concepts and theories) are no longer “traps” (because they are understood).
Ernie, I agree with nearly everything you said - aside from your beliefs about concepts and theories. I think if we had some examples of a concept or theory from both sides, we might find a common ground.
That: “You have to experience it” Nonsense…
Is that type of quote above really nonsense to people? I wonder why that would be so. Being that we are talking about martial arts, and martial arts require the physical experience to understand it… I thought that would be a given! I can tell you about the taste of an apple if you’ve never tasted one yourself, but you won’t truly understand it until you taste one. Why get frustrated about that reality? (Personally I am doing what I can (for my part) to help people out the best I can regarding the welcomed interest in HFY. I enjoy these discussions, so long as they remain non-hostile.)
All of us here know that words and talk can only get anybody so far in their understanding. The act of doing those things will bring our understandings far deeper than words can convey. I understand that the people here feel all this “HFY TALK” is nonsense. And to them, it is true because they haven’t experienced HFY gung fu to give those words any meaning! It is Experience that gives our (general ‘our’) words meaning. I don’t see anything wrong or offensive about that. The same could be said about me trying to understand TWC, YKS WC or LTWT etc… via the internet or articles. I wouldn’t truly understand those systems unless I had the first hand experience. So why not give HFY the same treatment/assessment?
Regarding the HFY family within the WC Comm. I am quite sure that the more seminars the HFY & VTM have in the future, the more we all can relate to each other. Even this forum could benefit greatly from it, as it would (hopefully) nullify much of the hostility and aggression around here.
Sifu Parlati, thanks for your input. I think I understand you better.
“BTW as the HFY folks say-they have a great chat line of their own. Possibly a good place for folks to ask and answer HFY questions?”
Sifu Chaudhuri’s persistence about his quote above is both flattering and revealing. I appreciate his help in “marketing” the existence of www.hfy108.com 
but I also think that he would love to get rid of the HFY discussions here. So to me, it’s his way of saying “Why don’t you guys go back to your newfound home!” without really saying it.
Yes, it is a great place to ask questions. It’s a great place to post your own photos too. We get new members more frequently now, but the discussions are still “here and there” in comparison to KFO. HFY108 is still a very young place, but that’s OK. Besides, I am a member here, and there are a few people here who like to talk about HFY. Just because a few people don’t like HFY doesn’t mean HFY should go away from this forum. I couldn’t be so selfish! So, unfortunately for some people, I’m going to stay. shrug
Savi,
Seeing that you are a fan of the Roads epic, I thought this line is kind of ironic and humorous in view of your previous post to Joy.
Sam:
KFO. The one place in Middle Road we don’t want to see any closer. It’s the one place we are trying to get to. It’s just where we can’t get. Let’s face it Mr. Frodo. We’re lost. I don’t think Savvy meant for us to come this way.
Frodo:
He didn’t mean for a lot of things to happen, Sam. But they did.
savi i was going to bow out of thread but you said some really great things here
[[A system, in and of itself, can become a trap]]
every system is a trap , in the sense of do you work for the system , then yes it’s a trap
does the system work for you , if so then it’s just atool you use when you need to
. [[That is, until you discover the nature of that system and your own identity; when you finally understand that particular ‘thing’ and if it reinforces what you understand about yourself. Swimming can be a trap if you’ve never swam before. Once you actually learn the different methods of swimming,]]
how do you understand the methods of swiming , with out swiming , and what if one leg is shorter then the other or one has trouble moving in the normal fashion ,
‘’ i am reminded of a particular student at school who is mentally challanged , so he has trouble understanding complicated phrases but trains harder then anyone i know ,non stop from begining to end , i have to teach him through feel and experience , i have to adapt to his ability to learn , the amazing thing is , he is rapidly improveing , he makes things work for him ,in his mind ‘’
he inspires me and reminds me to not get to lost in the details , but to live the experience
[[is it really a trap anymore? Or do you do what is necessary to swim?]]]
that my friend is the million dollar question, and when do you really know the answer
savi
[[Ernie, I agree with nearly everything you said - aside from your beliefs about concepts and theories. I think if we had some examples of a concept or theory from both sides, we might find a common ground.]]
we are walking the ground now
HA!
Though I hardly see myself at the level of a wizard, that does make me laugh! Have you seen the extended version of the Two Towers? The theater version pales in comparison.
Legolas:
“HFY? Shall I describe it to you, or would you prefer a box?”
Gimli:
“Hehehehe…”
Moments of truth…
Originally posted by Ernie
[B] [[is it really a trap anymore? Or do you do what is necessary to swim?]]]
that my friend is the million dollar question, and when do you really know the answer [/B]
Like your story. Though I would like to venture a guess as to the answer to the million dollar question… money can also ruin your life! J/K!
You know when you get thrown in the water. “Sink or swim.”
I see martial art styles like lakes. If you can swim to the other side and make it, you’ll know and appreciate it much greater. If you can’t, stay in the shallow end until you have enough curiosity to find out more about yourself and swim deeper.
Could be right or wrong, but that’s my final answer.
savi
[[Could be right or wrong, but that’s my final answer]]
survey says — long tensioned filled pause ---- ding ding
if the answer is right for you then it is right !
just like martial arts
I’d ask if you could leave those type of comments off this thread at least… please
Well, I’m getting sick of this too, so OK. I did find your last remark rather patronising, however. I used to jump down Hendrik’s throat with both feet whenever he tried to pull his Zen Master script on me too, so don’t feel singled out.
Some of my friends and I were mixed up with people that used to pull all that stuff on us for their own evil ends in my youth, so I have a VERY short fuse for that sort of thing. Read my “False Prophet” article on wingchunkuen.com and you’ll see where I’m coming from.
Peace. Have fun and learn in Arizona. I hope HFY and you prosper.
None of this matters a schmick anyway in the larger scheme of things.
I’ve read LOTR, but seen none of the movies. Jeez, I haven’t even seen the second Matrix yet. Has the fift Star Wars been released? I only just got around to watching the fourth on DVD the other day.
HFY Formula Pic…
Originally posted by PaulH
One question. What are the ten bright points? Hopefully you can help my light bulb burn a little brighter here?
You know Paul, even though this question was posed in the first page, and answered very briefly by a few (myself included)… I asked myself if the answers provided really answered the question. Just the phrase “Wing Chun Formula” didn’t really answer what those 10 points are.
To make it kinda simple (for a basic understanding of course) using addition,
3 Centers (heighth) + 5 Lines (width) + 2 Line Jong Sau (Depth) = 10 points which describe the appropriate amount of space (all three dimensions) in relation to your body frame.
3 Centers (heighth)
- the high ref pt in the HFY system is the nose region.
- the mid ref pt in the HFY system is the solar plexus.
- the low ref pt in the HFY system is three finger widths below the navel. These 3 centers are fixed along the body’s C/L only.
5 Lines (width)
- The C/L of the body, the axis of symmetry, is 1 of the 5 lines.
- Each shoulder joint constitutes 2 of the 5 lines.
- The last 2 lines of the 5 Line Concept are centered between the other 3 lines in #1 & 2. This gives you the complete width of the 6 gates of HFY.
2 Line Jong Sau (depth)
- The lead arm is at near full extention from the body on the C/L, save for an inch or two left for flex.
- The inside hand position is one forearm length behind the lead wrist on the C/L also. These two together, coupled with the positioning of both elbows on the Yin Lines, provides optimized usage of the inner and outer doors for stability and (because of the symmetrical distribution of the joints according to the 5 Line Concept) balanced functionality.
The following diagram, which uses figures also illustrated in the Mastering Kung Fu book, is listed below for a visual Paul H. Hope this helps you?
Savi:
Congratulatons…You’re most recent post giving lots of detail about the 3 centers, 5 lines, and 2 line jong sau - along with the diagram from the book -
is the first time that I’ve seen anything on this forum that serves to TRULY explain (in a way that doesn’t degenerate into zen master esoterica)…what the HFY formula is about.
Keep up the good work !
3 centers theory
IF HFY implementations must flow from the HFY formula, and
IF the low reference point is adjacent to the navel,
THEN how do you defend the important areas off your map? 
P.S. A little bit of trivia–to those in the know, the area three fingers under the navel is referred to as the false dantien…at least if you are standing up.
Okay, I got it! Thanks, Savi! You’re right in that I do think visually. I maybe herbal but definitely not very verbal-oriented thinking person.
Regards,
PH
Savi
Thanks for the post. It was another example of how HFY and TWC are similar. We also have the 8 gate theory, though there may be others that have it also.
Inside and outside the Six Gates
Originally posted by [Censored]
IF HFY implementations must flow from the HFY formula, and
IF the low reference point is adjacent to the navel,
THEN how do you defend the important areas off your map?
What off-map areas are you referring to? Based on your last post, I can only guess of two possible areas you might be talking about, 3 possible scenarios:
- Outside the box (from the diagram)…
If you can see from the diagram in my last post, the HFY six gates are directly in front of the body. So how does one deal with attacks from outside (left and/or right side) the gates? To me, this is an issue of Facing, and in HFY there are two concepts that aide in identifying the moment of facing. When your opponent is positioned to the side of you, whether it be the dead/blindside or live/inside, but not in front of you… it could be referred to as “shadow facing”. In other words, they are only visible from your peripheral field of vision, and the attacks come from that same area. HFY refers to this moment in time as Mo Ying Da Yeng (no shape, hit shadow).
When an attack is delivered from any side (laterally) of the six gates, you must address the need to gain your facing in order to deal with the opponent. Some of the methods used to accomplish this are in HFY’s Kiu Sau development. In the MKF book, this is illustrated (photos) in chapter 7 on page 135, beginning the discussion with Chi Kiu training. What it basically entails, is that when you do not have proper six gate facing, you must sweep the high, middle, and/or low areas while engaging the opponent (kind of like “fishing” for the attack), aiming for a better position to deal with him/her. Once you have identified the position of the opponent, you can more accurately employ your strategy and tactics.
-
Lower Gate attacks…
If you are referring to the area below the low reference point, any attack (non-grappling) in that area is dealt with by the legs - whether it be by footwork for manuvering or kicking/delfecting with the legs. -
Opponent is head on, delivers an outside attack…
If your opponent is still out of trapping range (where you are not close enough to trap his/her elbow to their body), you must be mindful of curved attacks. Since you are at this distance, anything is still dangerous. So positioning is still important to address. In HFY footwork, I am being trained (currently) to stay aligned to the outside position of his/her leading side whist remaining targeted on the centerline position with the hands (generally speaking). By taking such an alignment, this forces the opponent to use greater space to launch an assault, hence making the movements telegraphed. (As an example, look at the cover photo of the MKF book) This also requires him/her to have greater recovery time from the attack. When executing the counter offensive, you should penetrate the closest side and into trapping range. this should cause him/her to lose the forward initiative, thus putting them on mere defense.