Hung Fa Yi and Shaolin...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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(I actually began this post at HFY108, but wanted to share it here. Please keep in mind I am not posting to prove anything. Thanks.)

For the past few years Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen has been debated repeatedly on the internet. I would like to thank everyone for their interest in this system. There are many people who see similarities and differences as well from HFY to other Wing Chun lineages. Part of the company in these internet forums concedes they do not consider HFYWCK to be Wing Chun at all, despite the similarities they themselves point out. Others fall short of the understanding they seek from the VTM/HFY family, not knowing that their questions cannot be answered by a forum alone - regardless of how well a post may be constructed. One has to see it in action, feel it, experience and learn about it in order to understand the answers they look for. In other cases, some comments like “Prove it works!” and “Prove it’s older!” cannot be answered at all via the internet. Regardless, the mind may know, but the body understands.

Hung Fa Yi, otherwise referenced as “repackaged” and “relabeled”, or noted as a compilation of “buzzwords” for the sake of uniqueness by a small few, still stands as a Wing Chun system without these commentators. Things that are misunderstood are often dismissed as fiction and are misrepresented as poor reflections against the intended. In my opinion, they are giving far too much credit to those they oppose. To further this segregation, they even make claims against those they accuse of making claims. This ignorance cannot be resolved, yet to the others who could care less about such negativity and immaturity; this post is directed towards them.

To understand the position given by the VTM that the origins of the Wing Chun system reside with the Southern Shaolin Temple, it is important to also understand what Shaolin is, not only through reading about it but by experiencing the nature of Shaolin Kung Fu. By doing so, it will be much easier to draw the correlations from a system perspective. The people here who cannot relate to the information put forth by the VTM should first have a clear understanding of Shaolin. What are its traits, its treasures, its philosophies? Those types of things must be understood before questioning the HFY system. The Southern Shaolin Temple is more than just a place; more than just a thing. Shaolin has a very deep history with China. China’s politics, its military, culture and philosophies are part Shaolin’s heart. Shaolin is an experience unto itself! One simply cannot point to a place and simply believe or say that is where they come from without understanding why. So we have to point back to experiencing what is Shaolin first, which is greater than any one person or system. It is after this fact when people begin to see the roots of Shaolin in Hung Fa Yi’s combat (self defense and offense), health (internal AND external), and philosophy (binds it all together!). There are also others who, even without this experience, see the truth of the Hung Fa Yi system and only appreciate it even further by studying its roots as well.

There are many practitioners of Hung Fa Yi who began their kung fu training in the various Shaolin arts, and can readily relate to Hung Fa Yi through its methods, concepts, theories, philosophy and even in its applications around the world (we have practitioners from South America to the USA to Europe – so far as I know). Furthermore, there are also many Buddhist practitioners who see no flaw in logic or philosophy regarding Hung Fa Yi as a unique branch of Chan Buddhism. Rather, they see HFY as a reflection of their own Buddha nature. Why? These people were only able to come to their conclusions by studying the system through the body and mind. Many of them, if not all, have conceded that the methods of HFY have pointed them to greater knowledge and deeper connections within themselves. These people serve but one example to the legitimacy and validity of HFY as a system, and support for the VTM’s presentation of its findings.

continued…

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What is HFY, generally sepaking…

To give a very brief overview of what is Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, it is a system of combat and spirituality designed to preserve the very essence of all that is Shaolin. Those particulars have been referenced above, so it is quite rich in its heritage. The reason why this system was developed begins with cause and effect. Its development came of necessity of the time where China’s government (Ming Dynasty, around mid 1600’s) was failing and its neighbors began to invade. The survival of China’s culture and way of life were in the balance – and ultimately the ever-looming end to the Southern Shaolin Temple, thus being the impetus to develop a fighting system to counter all fighting styles. It had to be practical, easy to learn and retain, and deliver maximum results with minimal effort (with and without weapons). Through a 30 year collaborated effort between Ming royal officers and the monks and scholars of the Southern Shaolin Temple, Wing Chun was fielded onto the battlefields of China among the myriad of other fighting styles and into guerilla warfare over the next 150 years and down through the secret underground societies to the Red Opera Company built by Cheung (Tan Sau) Ng. Parts of it eventually came through the Red Boats (a “kung fu” melting pot) and ultimately into the public’s hands. It was not until the 8th generation of the Hung Fa Yi lineage, Garrett Gee, stepped forward to preserve his knowledge in the hands of a family he felt to be most suited and capable of cherishing and perpetuating it.

The nature of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun system is (dare I say from my limited experience!!!) quite simple. It is designed to help us find the way to harmonize with the here and now (reality), which is in reference to this moment in time, this space, and the right energy for this time and space without losing our own nature. When a person loses their nature, their centerline is broken, their personal space is invaded, their structures are asymmetrical, and their energies are erratic. When that person cannot recognize that, their sense of awareness becomes misguided and unfocused. This type of event is an extreme commonality in all combat. To prevent such things from happening, one must know what the nature of their structure for combat is, and how to stay true to their nature. “Know yourself, and then know your opponent.” In HFY, this form of risk management is addressed with two phrases/idioms that define our nature (chapter 5 of our MKF book):

• Saam Dim Yat Sien, Ding Yuhn Sahn: three points one line, establish original nature
• Ng Dou Luk Muhn, Fa Kihn Kwan: five ways and six gates, influence the universe

The first phrase references the vertical alignment of our three centers (tan jung, yan jung, dan tien). Our posture must stay upright at all times in order to optimize energy flow and balance our awareness in all directions. Strangely enough, there is much scientific work currently validating the effects of this very alignment. In the spiritual field, this is core for our meditation and chi cultivation. In the Shaolin sense, we are unifying Heaven, Human, and Earth within ourselves. To break this alignment is to destroy our nature as humans to interact through life with an upright posture. We must do what is most natural (that is also what we tend to do under high levels of stress, which tends to be the easiest as well).

The second phrase defines the width of the body from shoulder to shoulder. This dimension is broken into five lines, each equidistant from each other. Now to help understand why there are only five lines from a spatial standpoint, I shall reference the idea of center in relation to the arms. On a macro-scale, we place our hands on the centerline because that is the most efficient position to occupy in protecting ourselves from shoulder to shoulder. On a micro-scale, we apply the same ideology of efficiency to the elbow. Thus the elbow is ‘centered’ between the centerline and the shoulder. In both cases, the distribution of mass from left to right becomes balanced; two hands on center and both elbows centered between the centerline and shoulder lines. This is true in the case of HFY structure, and is applied to both arms in static structure as well as movement.

The last part of the second phrase points to areas of combat the body must address in order to interact with the immediate ‘universe’ before it. There are four areas to which the arms address, and two areas that the legs address. From high, middle and low (defined by the three reference points), divided by the centerline – this constitutes six zones of attack and defense that must face the enemy directly and at all times. For strategy and tactic, the six gates of the enemy must not orient towards you. Hence, we flank the enemy to the side. (Ultimately these two idioms gave rise to the Wing Chun Formula: Sup Ming Dim - 10 Bright Points. It is this very formula that solidifies all HFY structure to precision, and guides all motion as well.)

In turn, a HFY student must search for any and all things in the enemy non-compliant with our own rules and guidelines. Those [what I perceive as] inefficiencies (things not true to our nature as human beings, defined by the two idioms above) serve as opportunities for their destruction. The system itself (from what I have seen) is very deep in detail, yet very simple in its clarity and application. To me, this is the balance we look for; things with great meaning and simple at the same time. What this comes down to is that you have to know yourself first, and then know your opponent (noted above). All things must point to greater knowledge. I share this with you in an attempt to project somewhat an image of how a HFY person might see things, but I can only offer my perspective on the matter – so this post is very limiting in and of itself. In any case I hope this helps in any way, your curiosity about what HFY is.

Take care,
-Savi.

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Hi Savi,

I like your insights of the HFY system! All very interesting stuffs! One question. What are the ten bright points? Hopefully you can help my light bulb burn a little brighter here?

Cheers,

PH

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Furthermore, there are also many Buddhist practitioners who see no flaw in logic or philosophy regarding Hung Fa Yi as a unique branch of Chan Buddhism. Rather, they see HFY as a reflection of their own Buddha nature. —Savi

So what is Buddha nature?

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Chan Buddhism.

Originally posted by Phenix
[B]Furthermore, there are also many Buddhist practitioners who see no flaw in logic or philosophy regarding Hung Fa Yi as a unique branch of Chan Buddhism. Rather, they see HFY as a reflection of their own Buddha nature. —Savi

So what is Buddha nature? [/B]

It’s a topic for discussion on some other forum.

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The whole thread could be on the HFY forum!!

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There is also a a shaolin kung fu forrum in KFO.

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There is also a a shaolin kung fu forum in KFO.

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Isn’t HFY meant for the Shaolin forum?

I think it would be great for additional Shaolin HFY postings to be on the Shaolin Kung Fu forum and the general Kung Fu Forum. And perhaps the “Other Related Arts” forum.

After all, isn’t Shaolin Hung Fa Yi the best of the best of Shaolin?
If it is indeed the acme of all that shaolin had to offer, then indeed Garrett Gee is in essence also the Grandmaster of Shaolin!

Perhaps some additional clarification can be made to these folks as well:

http://www.shaolinwingchun.com/

http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/

http://www.wahnam.com/TheShaolinWahnamInstitute.htm

http://www.shaolin-do.com

Now can we get back to plain old “Popular” Wing Chun?
As I recall, that was what this forum was for, rather than ceaseless marketing of Shaolin Hung Fa Yi. Perhaps there is an empty space at the airport solicitation booths, where they could sell flowers and “Mastering Kung Fu”.

==============================
“Buddhism never says faith is unimportant; but it advocates that acceptance should not be based on blind faith. Otherwise it may become superstition. Secondly, Buddhism always emphasizes understanding and verification.”

Wong Kiew Kit

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savi
first of all thank you for taking the time to break things down , and on another thread for stating that hfy is in no way superior to any other art since in a combative situation it comes down to the individual .
but i do have to agree with the others that this is a wing chun forum , popular , incomplete , watered down what ever the latest business catch phrase is ,
and most of us are more interested in the future , not the shaolin, chan, moon floats over the stars fortune cookie past .
this does belong elsewhere .
if you wish to discuss training and skill development , drills , experiences and concepts , then by all means do so , specificly those that are your first hand experiences and not that of this master and some old dead army .
just be honest and speak out in plain english not cryptic chinese proverbs and then say , ‘’ well you guys just don’t understand ‘’ .
i have always felt that if some one trully understands something they can explain it in simple terms , when people fall back on old saying and proverbs they don’t really get it and are hiding behind some one elses words and experiences . but that is just me :smiley:
i’m sure you have plenty of first hand ‘’ wing chun ‘’ experiences and training concepts you could share with out all the shaolin , chan , my history can kick your history’s butt stuff .
and i for one would welcome real honest discussions with you and your group about such things

p.s. i have for have also caught heat for useing my out of wing chun experience , in and out of the ring to get my point across but even then it’s to discuss a wing chun point or skill .

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I agree and disagree with some of the comments directed toward savi about where to post this. ok it might be a good idea to post in the shaolin area, or make a link to where the post originally started.

but on the the other side he is showing the relationship between the two. he is just puting it out there for you if you want to read it if not, let it pass by. why waste your energy fighting it, if you think we are just trying to get attention then stop giving it to us. then your problem is solved.

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?Saam Dim Yat Sien, Ding Yuhn Sahn: three points one line, establish original nature
?Ng Dou Luk Muhn, Fa Kihn Kwan: five ways and six gates, influence the universe —Savi

Savi,

Sorry to tell you Yuhn Sahn is a daoist term.
it is not a buddhist term.
This Daoist Yuhn Sahn is the within the 5 Skandha.
Thus, it is not the Original buddha Nature.

Thus, may be you can explain why a secret art from shao lin top Chan monk such as Yat Chan (presume he exist but you need to further show evidents) end up with Daoist Concept and term, and using something within the 5 skandha with is a part of suffering as the original nature?

The heart sutra of Chan said:

Avalokiteshvara, Kwan Yin, the Bodhisattva of Compassion, meditating deeply on Perfection of Wisdom, saw clearly that the five skandha are empty*, and so released himself from suffering. Answering the monk Sariputra, he said this:

Body is nothing more than emptiness,
emptiness is nothing more than body.
The body is exactly empty,
and emptiness is exactly body.
The other four aspects of human existence –
feeling, thought, will, and consciousness –
are likewise nothing more than emptiness,
and emptiness nothing more than they. …

____________________________________-

BTW,
Kihn Kwan is also a daoist term. It is not a buddhist term.

Thus, may be you can explain to us how come the Shao Lin paradigm shift fomulars are Daoist and not accord with Prajna wisdom of Chan at all as you can see from the Heart Sutra. Chan empty the 5 skandha. but your post seems to give raise to Heaven Earth Human… time space… isnt it pulling the reverse gear of empty the 5 skandha?

Please keep it technical only and enlightent us. again. you can choose to ignore my questions. it is understood. may be I am out of wack.

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Not that simple.

Hendrik,
Reread the chapter in the MKF book which illustrates the 3 primary schools of thought in the Southern Shaolin temple during that era. HFY is not based on only one type of thinking, per se. It is influenced by Daoism, Confusianism and Buddhism.

BUT keep in mind, the KFO Wing Chun forum is not intended for pure philosophical/religious discussions. I will refrain from those type of questions per Sandman.

Paul,
The 10 bright points (Sup Ming Dim) refer to the Wing Chun Formula. If you have followed any previous discussions about the formula, that’s what Sup Ming Dim refers to. On the very basic level, it describes three dimensional space (and all its divisions within) in relation to the human form. Hence the two idioms.

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Re: Not that simple.

Originally posted by Savi
[B]Hendrik,
Reread the chapter in the MKF book which illustrates the 3 primary schools of thought in the Southern Shaolin temple during that era. HFY is not based on only one type of thinking, per se. It is influenced by Daoism, Confusianism and Buddhism.

BUT keep in mind, the KFO Wing Chun forum is not intended for pure philosophical/religious discussions. I will refrain from those type of questions per Sandman.

[/B]

So it is not a Chan based art?
It doesn’t seem to be since it is having a concept different then the heart sutra as shown above.

I dont think it is about philosophical but it is about the root of art which is tangeble. you mention Yuhn Sahn, that term has to be clearify right? otherwise when you practicing or following the formular how can you know which is which and what to achive if it is not clearly define?

It is similar to the practice of different method of ChiGung. Some circulate the chi or called small cosmic, some entering silence or called clean and silence unity, some cultivate the life force, some cultivate the original nature. so the term which is a core of the Kung has to be well define, right?
if it is from Shao Lin do those Chan monk in Southern Shao Lin use the Daoist technics to achive Daoist goal? it is similar to TaiJi and yee Chuan. TaijI has to be define. Yee has to be define. and one cannot put this under the philosophical/relegious catagory because it is a neccessary to define what is the root of the art.

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Nice posts Savi!

So far as my understanding of Chan goes, it is basically being spontaneous, not trapped in one moment or another, past or future, but living in the here and now. Having this awareness is but a part of the defining roots of the art of HFY. It is very clear to its students what is meant by both phrases:

• Saam Dim Yat Sien, Ding Yuhn Sahn: three points one line, establish original nature
• Ng Dou Luk Muhn, Fa Kihn Kwan: five ways and six gates, influence the universe

There is no ambiguity for us. I think Savi broke them down very well. Like he mentioned though, one has to have the physical experience to completely understand the idioms above. Intellectual understanding alone does not give anyone a complete comprehension of them.

Now, as was also said before, about the red boats being the melting pots of Wing Chun, I believe Chan should be observed in a similar fashion. With all of the Daoist and Buddhist idioms everybody is pointing out, is Chan not a philosophical melting pot of sorts? Remember that there were monks who were masters of Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism, within Shaolin, so, IMHO, it is inevitable that the three would someday combine.

For those who say the initial post doesn’t belong here, I agree with 45degree fist. But, I also have not seen any statements that say the Wing Chun forum is restricted to discussions about experience and techniques either, per Ernie’s post. It is a general Wing Chun forum from what the Wai Jia page says. It only describes Wing Chun, it does not restrict the discussions here to technique and first hand experience only.

Humbly,

Steve

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steve
Wing Chun forum is restricted to discussions about experience and techniques either, per Ernie’s post. It is a general Wing Chun forum from what the Wai Jia page says.

i am defenitly not the last word about what can and can not be said on this foum , but once you involve religion , politics , and martial arts you have three very volitile subjects , were people’s personal oppinions and emotions take priority .
if you keep things on a based on skill development , attribute development , body mechnics , personal experince and training concepts . you have platforms we can all relate to share and grow from .
you have to remember we all have indiviual bond to our sifu’s and systems , but we don’t need to conform others to our way of thought ‘’ this is were the whole scientolgy creepy thing takes over ‘’
if we just share what’s going on from a peronal level , not from a systematic level we can pass information back and forth with out the my way is better then your way thing.
we all have ways to address range ,position , power speed timing , and adaptability ‘’ our formula’s’’ if you will but we dont need to impose them on and other .
but if you share personal experience in application of a concept from your formula , then perhaps others can input and a healthy disscusion can take shape.

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Now, as was also said before, about the red boats being the melting pots of Wing Chun,

I believe Chan should be observed in a similar fashion.

With all of the Daoist and Buddhist idioms everybody is pointing out, is Chan not a philosophical melting pot of sorts?

Remember that there were monks who were masters of Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism, within Shaolin,

so, IMHO, it is inevitable that the three would someday combine. ----------D

Wow, if everything can be re define as one likes it. disregard of if one knows them or not; WCK, Shao Lin, …and what else cannot be re define?

so according to history, Chi Sim was killed by White eyebrows Daoist, that is no supprise but expected because even Chisim was practicing White Eyebrows daoist art. Is that right?

since Daoist dominate the core of Shao lin art, why bother even put a Shao Lin label?

so, WCK is originate from Daoist art such as brother art Bagua and Taiji with Yuhn Sahn and Kuen Kuan?.., So why bother even called it WCK? is it just a Daoist art with Shao Lin label?

But then, how come other Southern Shao Lin art doesn’t using yuhn Sahn and Kuin Kuan… those Daoist core?

IT is indeed a paradigm shift when one can define anything one likes to be anything one intended to be.

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Paul,

The Sup Ming Dim expression refers to the HFY formula. It gives us our awareness of space. By first recognizing our space we start to relate and identify to what is efficient and eventually what is the most efficient.

Regards,

Mike

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Ernie,

If it is a general Wing Chun forum, as you stated, I am just wondering why Savi got so much grief for his post. It is about Wing Chun. All he did was to open a discussion about some of the HFY training concepts, nothing more.

Is not the study of history so we understand the present an experience? He also presented some historical data for others to consider and experience.

In no way did I see him try to impose his beleifs onto others.

Phenix,
So then, what is Esperanto? Renamed Spanish? French? Portuguese? German? No, it is a language with elements of many other languages. It was made from existing languages to try and make a common language in Europe.

I did not re-label anything. What happens when you make an alloy? Is it a renamed metal? No, it is a combination of the original metals into something different.

Chan is pretty much the same, a combination of Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism into something new. They are all methods of looking at reality.

Steve

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Da Moose from dayton sez:

Chan is pretty much the same, a combination of Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism into something new. They are all methods of looking at reality.

Steve

That is what Chan is? In this season- forgive him- in his groupthink amd enthusiasm- he knows not what he says!
Another voice in a noisy choir!!