Hung Fa Yi and Shaolin...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Savi:

Look…the science of wing chun (regardless of which wc system, though some more then others)…the science is definitely fascinating and mind-expansive - but the point I’ve been trying to make is that too often too many people get caught up in the science of it all and don’t spend enough time really getting down with the APPLICATION of all this science IN TERMS OF REAL FIGHTING TECHNIQUE - as it applies to real fighting scenarios…

I suppose it 's all a matter of agendas…some people “claim” to have none, some will show theirs either overtly or covertly. I let it be known some time ago that my agenda is to promote TWC - but if one looks carefully at the sum total of all my posts it shouild be clear that promoting TWC is the “moon” in my universe -

the “sun” - around which everything else revolves - is having plain spoken discussions with other wing chun folks about SPECIFIC strategies, tactics, and techniques regading SPECIFIC fighting scenarios (ie. -how to escape from a headlock, how to defend a double leg takedown, how to blatantly attack from a cross front stance, how to deal with a boxers’ jab/cross combo from a parallel neutral side stance, etc. etc.).

These are the kinds of things that interest me the most - and aside from yourself and a very few others my biggest frustration with the great majority of the HFY posters here is that they try to avoid talking about these kinds of SPECIFIC, TECHNIQUE-BASED fighting scenarios at all costs…

further fueling my (and I am by no means the only one) SCEPTICISM about HFY"s claims - notwithstanding the fact that much of the HFY I have seen looks very similar to TWC - which I obviously think is a good thing.

42

Technique discussions are difficult.

To all,
For my part, regarding HFY application, it is very difficult to discuss things like TECHNIQUE-BASED fighting scenarios in this forum for several reasons.

• Everybody has different versions of any given technique. Due to this reality, the variance of structure from person to person will wield a variance in their success rate. Structure and Energy are symbiotic. If you change the structure, in any way, you affect the energy ultimately changing the nature of the technique.

So how can we talk about technique when each of us has different natures for the same technique then? You first have to understand what correct structure and correct energy is (according to your kung fu) to apply the precise nature of that given technique. Without explaining these things, we are talking two different languages. Eliminating the name of the techniques might make it easier, but the discussion would have to turn to greater details just to explain it.

• Techniques ultimately have no meaning at all. Why? The technique merely represents the finger pointing to the moon. The technique should not be the focus as it does not represent the end-all be-all solution to anything, but is a reflection of the truth behind it; the concepts and theories, as well as the shape and energy that drives the technique(s).

In this forum, these types of discussions (HFY’s “way” of doing things) cannot be met because we have to have an understanding of each others’ way of doing things first. If anything, I feel that by explaining the underlying concepts and theories first will better help others identify with how we do things in HFY application. At best, people will only have a very vague idea of what a HFY application is, and even that vague idea could be far off target.

• In order to talk about how HFY does things you really have to understand how the system operates. Without it, the details we share are completely subject to another’s definition of doing things, hence the first two bullet points. You have to know the philosophy, concepts, theories, strategy and tactics in order to relate to HFY at all. You have to be able to see things from the HFY perspective. So in the end, without knowing these things, the discussion is pointless.

The bottom line comes down to this; because HFY is so different than any other Wing Chun out there, you have to learn HFY in order to have a FRUITFUL discussion about its combat applications. If you don’t want to learn, come over to my place or a HFY school. We’ll show you what we mean, and then we can have tea and talk about the “Why” of things.

I think talking about HFY combat applications here is pointless until you have some foundation in HFY knowledge. Otherwise, you won’t understand the context of what is being said. This may be perhaps why the HFY members spend a lot of time trying to explain these things in order to facilitate the level of communication and understanding here? I hope this helps.

43

Why get frustrated?

Sifu Parlati,

If I and a few others frustrate you, then my question is not about how, but WHY are you getting frustrated by “us”? Is it because “we” don’t give in to comments like:

Originally posted by Ulitmatewingchun
[b]otherwise the outcome at the end of the day is a very cerebral martial artist whose fighting skills are just average at best…

and I suspect that given the amount of “cerebral” discussion around here by a certain group of folks is a major indicator of just how effective they really are as fighters -

when the “theory” instead of the details (ie. - techniques used in various scenarios) is what’s emphasized - it usually means that applying the details is a weak point…the proverbial “weak link in the chain”.[/b]
and add fire to the thread until it burns and dies? Or is it because you don’t think we are talking from experience? Do you think that the HFY family just sits around contemplating and conspiring how complex we can make things? Perhaps you and a few others think we’re full of cr@p and that we make all this up.

It is however irrelevant, any of the questions or opinions above. I appreciate what you have said, the good and bad points. The HFY members here who share their take on HFY are driven by experience. The HFY system works, and it is not easy to understand HFY unless you do it yourself. It is not as easy to explain HFY because it is one complex system, but it is very easy to apply once you have the mechanics. As I said before, “The system itself (from what I have seen) is very deep in detail, yet very simple in its clarity and application. To me, this is the balance we look for; things with great meaning and simple at the same time.” Don’t you think this is true?

44

The technique merely represents the finger pointing to the moon.

Some people may not get to see the moon unless the finger directs them.

Matt Thornton of the Straight Blast Gym, another gentleman who has thought long and hard about the process and philosophy of producing proficient combat athletes, teaches techniques FIRST, because in his opinion the technique illustrates the principle he is trying to instill better than all the theorising in the world.

Lest anyone take issue with him being a JKD teacher, think first about who you first heard utter the “finger pointing to the moon” phrase (on film, presumably).

Check out the Philosophy ling on www.straightblastgym.com. If you read it with an open mind, as I will my copy of “Mastering Kung Fu” when it is finally delivered by Amazon, it sohlud at least give you food for thought.

because HFY is so different than any other Wing Chun out there

TWC is different to any other Wing Chun out there also. Wing Tsun Australia had a marketing line for a while, “you’ll see the difference”. WT is different from any other Wing Chun out there. IMO (Victor may disagree) TWC is different to HFY, which, as a TWC practitioner, I regard as a good thing, as no doubt do HFY practitioners.

45

Amerlich sez:

FIRST, because in his opinion the technique illustrates the principle he is trying to instill better than all the theorising in the world.

FWIW- what attracted me to wing chun in the first place were the applications.Theory came later.

BTW- two very good wing chun teachers I know— both say-
practice- dont talk too much-its all in there- just practice.!!

46

Point?

OK, I think I am giving off the impression that theory comes first, but in case others have not read this before I also mentioned that the deeper concepts and theories are discussed afterwards as well and not upfront. But that’s in regards to teaching.

Teaching is one thing. We are not teaching HFY over the internet. My point is that it’s good to have some background info first before talking about combat apps from a system you don’t train.

47

OK, I think I am giving off the impression that theory comes first, but in case others have not read this before I also mentioned that the deeper concepts and theories are discussed afterwards as well and not upfront. But that’s in regards to teaching.

Yeah, OK, but incremental intro of deeper or more complex material is pretty standard pedagogy for just about anything. Nothing revalatory about that.

We are not teaching HFY over the internet.
Neither teaching nor preaching, I would hope.

My point is that it’s good to have some background info first before talking about combat apps from a system you don’t train.

Agreed. Though there is an apparent mindset that even Sifu or “Master” level experience in another lineage of WC, supplemented by reading about the system (just another lineage from one POV) at length on KFO, other internet sites, or out of the book, provides no background for such understanding of HFY.

“we are so different and so special you can’t possibly understand us. Don’t even bother trying, just accept what you are told by us, the enlightened”

Such ideas have been, and remain, contentious.

48

joy
[[practice- dont talk too much-its all in there- just practice.!!]]]
how dare you give out the real secret
:smiley:

1 experience is worth a thousand techniques ,
personal experience can never be taken away or altered , no one can lie to you , since it is yours

quote from wsl ‘’ talking is easy , now doing that is sonething else ‘’

usually don’t quote others , but i have experienced these :smiley:

quote from my training partner ‘’ when your looking up at me, flat on your back spitting out blood , will it really matter what angle your tan sau was , or which way my big toe was pointing ‘’

sadly experienced that one to’’ ouch ‘’
and finally ‘’ analyze to paralyze ‘’

49

Yo.

Originally posted by anerlich
Yeah, OK, but incremental intro of deeper or more complex material is pretty standard pedagogy for just about anything. Nothing revalatory about that.
Wasn’t trying to be. Just trying to put certain things into a different perspective in an attempt to help some people who have an interest.
Originally posted by anerlich
[B] “we are so different and so special you can’t possibly understand us. Don’t even bother trying, just accept what you are told by us, the enlightened”

Such ideas have been, and remain, contentious. [/B]
Such ideas like these are your own, and is not the mindset we carry here. The perspective you share in the above quote does not reflect the HFY family at all. If you would like to paint a picture of the HFY members on this forum as such, that’s your own sense of attachment.

Originally posted by ernie
1 experience is worth a thousand techniques ,
personal experience can never be taken away or altered , no one can lie to you , since it is yours
Very true! Very true. Hence my persistence that HFY cannot be fully understood through the internet. You gotta experience it! What matters is what happens. Does it matter; the details of your technique? If it worked, well, only if you care. If it didn’t, again only if you care. Some people who win or lose do not bother with understanding why they won or lost, so long as they are alive. And that can be the most important thing.
Originally posted by ernie
will it really matter what angle your tan sau was , or which way my big toe was pointing
No, but that is because that’s already after the fact. IMO I’d rather take stock in things that eliminate the mindset of “lucky strikes or blocks”. I prefer to know exactly what happened, how it happened and why it happened as it happened, in real time combat. I’d rather be as aware as possible of as many aspects of the combat at hand regarding what my opponent does, and what I do. That way, I’ll know what I did right and wrong - learning from each experience. But that doesn’t mean thinking about the angles of my parts at all times. That’s what training is for. Combat is about action and reaction.

Ernie, in answer to your question earlier on this thread, at our school we do have many accomplished fighers, a few black belts of other disciplines, and plain old street fighters that truly enjoy tearing it up during our General Combat classes. They love to use their non-WC tools and we go all out sometimes. I’ve had my lip split open quite a few times. Check out this pic…

http://www.hfy108.com/photohost/showphoto.php?photo=71&password=&sort=1&cat=3002&page=1

That was after my sidai’s bald head slammed into my face (my tooth went right through my lip from front to back) when we were sparring with grappling. That was a fun time… But we mix it up with boxers, kick boxers, grapplers/wrestlers, mantis practitioners - we have a large variety of stylists at our school. I think it’s great to have such opportunities to train with people “outside the box”.

50

Pictures, huh?

Check this one out. After a grading in early 1999.

(Warning: no shirt, chest and underarm hair. Don’t say nobody told you)

Two black eyes, note the left (my left) side of my chest. You can’t quite make it out here, but I have Sifu’s palm print with three fingers individually visible on my left ribs. I’m suprised you can’t also see the tread pattern of his ASICS wrestling boot as well. I think he gave me one black eye, one of my sparmates the other.

I got drunk with my training buds and Sifu that night, the hangover hurt worse than any injury.

I probably get a black eye or split lip every 2-3 months. I’ve been knocked out once after a takedown on a hard floor, and cracked ribs and got regular “accidental” elbows to the face during BJJ. Don’t have snaps of any of those.

We spar with grappling every session, unless it’s boxing.

51

If you would like to paint a picture of the HFY members on this forum as such, that’s your own sense of attachment.

Attachment to what? :confused: Spare me the pop psychology and amateur Zen philosophy, please. I’ve been getting that from Hendrik for years without having to listen to latter day pretenders from elsewhere.

52

savi
[[[[ prefer to know exactly what happened, how it happened and why it happened as it happened, in real time combat.]]]

i understand you need to know , but in all reality . you can never crystalize a fight , it’s like trying to find the same grian of sand twice on the beach , or breath in the same exact breath of air ,
you can’t do it ,
it’s living and changeing , and you can’t judge when or were or who , you will fight in the street .

many martial artist make that mistake , the assume ,
then they come up with styles and concepts to deal with these assumptions ‘’ i mean this universally ‘’ not just you.

the best we can do is experience enough uncomfortable situations that we are able to adjust and adapt faster then our opponent .

there are only thing that is certain ‘’ uncertainty ‘’

if some one tells me they have all the answers i know they are lying ,
if my sifu , coach teacher , tried to make me believe he or she new it all i would laugh and walk away , i respect the person that admits ‘’ they don’t know ‘’ but is willing to experienment with the problem .

, i am glad you agree with the experience concept i would love to add more but i told you i won’t take any discussions seriously until you stop flying your banner in every post .
just be that regular dude with the busted lip that laughs about it then we can relate :slight_smile:

53

Knowing yourself, mastering yourself…

Anerlich,
Give it a break already man. I’m not going to entertain the endless arguing on this thread. I’d ask if you could leave those type of comments off this thread at least… please. I appreciate you sharing the picture. Looks like you had fun.

Ernie,
You and I certainly have two different ways of looking at the same things. Let me put it this way (to be blunt, but not defensive/sensitive) regarding “lineage banners” as you put it. I don’t care what you think about me “supposedly” flying a “HFY banner” in this discussion because:

  1. This thread is entitled “HFY and Shaolin” so expect to see HFY mentioned somewhere along the lines here.

  2. My martial knowledge is rooted in the HFY and Ip Man Gung Fu systems. If I have to reference where certain knowledge comes from, then I’ll give credit where it is due.

  3. I make no suggestions as to what you should or shouldn’t mention when discussing things. If you can’t see past my decision or reasons for #2, just ignore them if you want to talk. I could just as easily make a suggestion to you about the way you communicate, but I don’t because I respect you. Though I do not quite understand your reasons for making such a suggestion to me, I will try to find a way to help you out. If I can’t, oh well…

Aside from that issue…

In my gung fu training, it is stressed that to be a master of yourself, you have to know yourself. Martial arts after all, is about mastering oneself. That means, to me, I have to dominate my personal space which entails knowing how, where, and when my parts move - and why they are doing those things at all times to the level that it is second nature; where I know without thinking about it.

The fundamental basis of self-defense lies in knowing how to protect yourself; risk management. How do you manage your composure, your awareness, your use of space and energy, your Time (and timing)? The less you are aware of these things within yourself, the more likely you are to fail against attacks, or fall into the mindset of “lucky strike fighting” is the only way to go. These are all issues dealing with the self. Training, on any given level, is designed to do just that so that when you finally know yourself, all your attention can be undividedly given to the enemy. But experience, will tell you if you are on the right path. So you need both guidance and experience. Savvy?

I have been in only a few uncontrolled fights. Several before I began my gung fu training, and one after. Since then, all of my other ‘all out fighting’ has been under friendly atmosphere. In all my uncontrolled fights I never cared nor realized what I was doing so long as I was hitting the guy back. Experience has taught me that emotions cannot be the source of combative skill and prowess. Preparation for combat may do absolutely nothing for your ability to endure combat. Uncertainty is a reality, but should not be at the center of your awareness. Knowing yourself (Certainty, in other words) at all times should be. To me, that is the strength of my survival.

As I said in my first two posts on this thread: “…find the way to harmonize with the here and now (reality), which is in reference to this moment in time, this space, and the right energy for this time and space without losing our own nature.” That means yes, combat flows and is always changing. Yes we flow with it. We don’t, however, lose or forget ourselves in the process. Most definitely the everchanging elements of combat are as uncertain as telling the future, but that does not mean that I must be just as uncertain (within myself) as that everchanging environment.

I also completely agree that you cannot crystalize a fight - I have never been in contradiction with that statement. You, however, seem to already have a preconceived notion that concepts and theories do just that; crystalize a fight. In truth, they do not. They exist to guide us in knowing ourselves and strengthening our skill and knowledgebase; merely methods of tuning the human machine. Strategy and tactics exist to aide in destroying the opponent. Strategy and tactics exist in the military and in warfare. Are you saying that those same things have no place in civilian combat? Do you think strategy and tactic crystalize fights? If so, how’s that? If not, do you agree with what I’m saying?

54

Anerlich, Ernie :

I’ve been following the recent posts and interchanges on this thread between yourselves and Savi and I don’t envy the frustration you must be going through…ANYMORE…

I, for one, have given up trying to have any serious discussion with any of these HFY guys about techniques, training methods, fighting scenarios, etc.

Too much hype and “you just can’t understand us because we’ve got the formula and you don’t” NONSENSE being bandied about.

55

Victor- I do not think that either Anerlich or Ernie are
“frustrated”. They can speak for themselves, but in their posts
I dont see frustration- normally defined.

BTW as the HFY folks say-they have a great chat line of their own.
Possibly a good place for folks to ask and answer HFY questions?

BTW- Victor- I dont know the whole NYC area- are you in Manhattan?

56

yuanfen

Ultimatewingchun
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 429

Joy, I just had to post this…smile.
He’s in the Park Slope area of Brooklyn, not too far from the Manhattan Bridge.

57

savi

as i often find myself saying to my partners , when we first think of learning to fight , we are only intersted in controlling the other person , but this desire to control some one else , only serves to control you ,
you become dictated by his actions or emotions .
an echo with no purpose or direction

as we gain experience , and self awarness we realize the goal is to control ourselves , not to be so concerned with what the other person is doing , be aware of you speed timing position power , and ability to adapt and read ,

buy developing our tools and attributes , mental and physical and emotional , we develop a way to maintain a relationship with a opponent

but buy accepting our individual natures , strengths and weakness , we develop a honesty of self

when i hear concepts and theories ,Strategy and tactics
i agree with the initial usefulness but i have seen them become traps as people try desperatly to adhere to the doctirine and lose honesty of self ,
often the doctrine creates a cookie cutter system were every one is excpected to do exactly the same thing at the same time , regardless of body type , natural attributes and emotional make up ,
this would deny the human factor and thus lose true honesty .

as for the banner thing , you took the wrong way , i was trying to alieviate un wanted negitve energy , so that a positive conversation could evolve ,

i’m sure you don’t care what system i train under and i don’t care what system you train under , systems are just things , not living or breathing , i have no emotional connection to training methods . it’s the individual journey and development that interest me

savi[[You and I certainly have two different ways of looking at the same things.]]

and this is a beautiful thing , there are many roads to the same place , we can’t experience them all but we can share them with othres along the way,

thanks for your reply as allways , and you are right this thread is about your linage so i will wait for another ''time place and space ‘’:smiley:
to continue our conversation .

on a side note i ran into some one that recently spent time at your frisco school , he hung out with benny and garret trained a bit and gave me a break down on his impression of things .

58

Thanks Phil.

59

Phil or Victor-Thomas who was with Moy Yat- he is in manhattan- right in Times square?
He is pretty good if memory serves.

60

on a side note i ran into some one that recently spent time at your frisco school , he hung out with benny and garret trained a bit and gave me a break down on his impression of things .

And what were those impressions?