WCK people are known for their standing infighting (and internet infighting… :)), but what would they do in the following scenarios?
There’s the mount, side mount, scarf hold, and rear naked choke.
One more picture
Side mount
Once your opponent has the RNC sunk in the only way to get out is to tap.
^ you can also pass out:D
How
Hello Robert.
All these positions are reversable. The best educators/trainers for the solutions would be at your local grappling club (judo, bjj, sombo, catch etc). Anyone at blue belt level in BJJ could guide you well in the reversals.
The rear naked choke picture is fully on and would prove a tough one - as you have already lost the ability to protect the neck, also the legs are controlling the hip mobility.
Are these pin/holds proving a tough one for you?
Get on the mat and start to apply the make space - move hips protocol.
Good luck with your grappling journey.
Simon.
From my first judo class:
Best way to counter anything is to take the guy out BEFORE he applies it.
Of course we don’t live in an ideal world and as such we need to have “OH ****” responses, this is when we DO end up in those places we never wanna be.
How do we get those responses?
By finding and training with people that GET US INTO those situations.
The Answers will present themselves accordingly.
hell you learn to escape from those before you even get to blue belt in bjj
you can also never bathe so no one wants to grapple with you:D
What I am getting at is what WCK responses are there?
[QUOTE=chusauli;1027405]What I am getting at is what WCK responses are there?[/QUOTE]
VS the mount: Chain punch
VS the side mount: Chain punch
VS the side control: Chain punch
VS the RNC: chain punch.
hum… well i never like to be put into the situations but knowing the escapes are pretty darn handy.
Mount: left or right outside sweep on the leg if he’s leaning forward a good bit.
If he’s rising, buck, turn, try to slip the back door, watching out for him taking back.
the rear choke: at the level he’s got sunk I doubt your going to get out. Coach always preached, 2 ON 1, meaning 2 hands on one of there’s. control of the hand, trying to turn into them, or slip one of the legs off the hook position for mobility.
scarf/side head: continue to roll into them while pulling your arm back towards center.
What I am getting at is what WCK responses are there?
oppss… I’ll let pass for the cricket gallary.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1027407]VS the mount: Chain punch
VS the side mount: Chain punch
VS the side control: Chain punch
VS the RNC: chain punch.
:D[/QUOTE]
Hilarity…
First, LOL @ a JJ thread leaking into chain punch alley here…
but:
-
the mount (as shown) - wrist control> 1 ankle overlock > one sided hipthrust and roll and you’re out. there are other ways out as well, but that’s one.
-
RNC (sunken is hard but not impossible to get out of) > both hands grab the wrist and jerk pull on the arm beneath your chin> thrust hips up> twist over into his guard. Again, this is only one way to ease up an RNC.
-
side mount you have to counter rotate> twist> get up or look for other failures in his gates.
-
side mount with arm lock > arch your neck back> grab collar or reach under chin of holder and push while arch backward bow > twist out on first chance to.
Best way to learn is to get into those holds and then work to get out of them. Written descriptions do no justice. But I’ve been in each of those holds and have been taught how to get out of them in a few different ways.
Having said that, I don’t even practice much in the way of wrestling or JJ.
So, for some of you young guys, if you’re not trying this stuff to the exclusivity of some style, you are robbing yourself.
If you want to actually be a well rounded skilled fighter, you must work in all ranges. One range is simply not good enough. NO matter how much you want to not be taken down, you will be taken down and it’s important that you know what to do when you are taken there.
There is essentially nothing in Wing Chun or most TCMA that will help you to learn how to deal with this stuff. We can go on about chin na this and shuai jiao that but really? really? lol
wanna learn to swim? get in the water. period.
flame on!
And just to be a jerk, I didn’t mention any of the pressure point applications that are typically used in JJ to get the holder to comply with your escape attempts.
If I did that, then people wouldn’t bother to learn the more basic escapes first.
They’d go straight for the artery pinches, muscle grabs and joint presses…lol
At the risk of causing a flame war (oh, heck, it IS the wing chun forum) but anyway and any hoo
there are no “wing chun answers”
ie, there are only answers… this will shock a few here, but the way a good BJJ person gets out of those is NOT different then how a sambo or judo or wrestling person would…
and if a wing chun person wanted to get out, they’ve have to look at similar technqiues
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1027407]VS the mount: Chain punch
VS the side mount: Chain punch
VS the side control: Chain punch
VS the RNC: chain punch.
:D[/QUOTE]
lol. So true.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1027405]What I am getting at is what WCK responses are there?[/QUOTE]
There really isn’t a strong WC strategy in my opinion. I think that typically what one would try to do in WC is to get off finger and wrist locks along with eye gouges. The problem with that strategy though is that a WCer doesn’t have the understanding of body position like the grappler and the grappler can resort to gouging and locks on the smaller joints as well. If someone has you in a scarfhold, do you really think that it is wise to poke him in the eye and really make him mad?
If a WCer is going to be taken to the ground it needs to be a race to how quickly he can get to the vital points. Although, like I said, without a good understanding of position, there really aren’t good options for a “strict” WCer who has been mounted or put into a scarfold etc.
Edit: The only weakness that I think that a WCer could expose against a grappler is that often grapplers get overly into the sport aspects so in that regard a WCer could have a small chance of success.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1027413]At the risk of causing a flame war (oh, heck, it IS the wing chun forum) but anyway and any hoo
there are no “wing chun answers”
ie, there are only answers… this will shock a few here, but the way a good BJJ person gets out of those is NOT different then how a sambo or judo or wrestling person would…
and if a wing chun person wanted to get out, they’ve have to look at similar technqiues[/QUOTE]
I think other than a few people who lie and claim that their WC contains extensive ground grappling, no one would disagree.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1027407]VS the mount: Chain punch
VS the side mount: Chain punch
VS the side control: Chain punch
VS the RNC: chain punch.
:D[/QUOTE]
Chain punch to the mount will result in you being smothered then choked out or arm dislocated in arm bar or other submission…
Chain punch vs. Side mount would again have you submitted.
Chain punch against side control would lead you into a choke or crucifix.
Chain punch against a RNC would be an unconscious WCK’er.
Of course, people would say never get in the situation, but sometimes its unavoidable. I have always been a big advocate for cross training and know martial arts deal with 5 main areas: striking, kicking, joint locking, throwing and ground fighting.
Besides Fujian Dog Fist, Drunken Boxing and Di Tang Men, Chinese martial arts rarely deal with ground fighting.
Is WCK is useless in the above situations? Try it out. Get into the above scenarios and see how you will get out of them with WCK. Share with the group. No politics, just a positive discussion.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1027421]I think other than a few people who lie and claim that their WC contains extensive ground grappling, no one would disagree.[/QUOTE]
answers like that will get us nowhere