[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1027409]oppss… I’ll let pass for the cricket gallary.[/QUOTE]
LOL!
[QUOTE=chusauli;1027424]Chain punch to the mount will result in you being smothered then choked out or arm dislocated in arm bar or other submission…
Chain punch vs. Side mount would again have you submitted.
Chain punch against side control would lead you into a choke or crucifix.
Chain punch against a RNC would be an unconscious WCK’er.
Of course, people would say never get in the situation, but sometimes its unavoidable. I have always been a big advocate for cross training and know martial arts deal with 5 main areas: striking, kicking, joint locking, throwing and ground fighting.
Besides Fujian Dog Fist, Drunken Boxing and Di Tang Men, Chinese martial arts rarely deal with ground fighting.
Is WCK is useless in the above situations? Try it out. 
Get into the above scenarios and see how you will get out of them with WCK. Share with the group. No politics, just a positive discussion.[/QUOTE]
You obviously don’t have the Real Authentic ™ WCK !!
You do realize when moving to the ground the number of centerlines grows from 3 to 7.
Besides the center and the shoulder/nip lines you have to add the 2 hip, 2 knee lines. The head line is the same as the center centerline although it can have some curve to it. Some people include the elbow lines but a good grappler and chunner will keep his elbows close and do as Eddie Bravo calls it, a T-Rex.
Hope that helps everyone.
i’m not real familar with WC, so i don’t know what they have to offer. From the reaction i can see that its not much. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1027430]You obviously don’t have the Real Authentic ™ WCK !!
:p[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know.
I’m still looking for those to step up and teach me.
Onegaishimasu!
[QUOTE=m1k3;1027433]You do realize when moving to the ground the number of centerlines grows from 3 to 7.
Besides the center and the shoulder/nip lines you have to add the 2 hip, 2 knee lines. The head line is the same as the center centerline although it can have some curve to it. Some people include the elbow lines but a good grappler and chunner will keep his elbows close and do as Eddie Bravo calls it, a T-Rex.
Hope that helps everyone.:p[/QUOTE]
hmm I don’t really follow the 7 lines theory..?
what Eddie calls T-Rex or Home alone is BJJ 101 you learn from the start.. I honestly (no disrespect to anyone) don’t think someone who hasn’t been shown,and put into a high stress situation using that style of defensive nature will do it naturally. In my experience its by allot of bridging attempts. Everyone says bridge but what they don’t realize is thats well and good like sprawling.. how to use it is a whole other ball game.
Robert, I don’t understand :rolleyes:, if you say that any fighting is VT then anything you would do would be a VT response so why ask the questions, just like the biu jee guilloten its all the same thing isn’t it
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1027504]Robert, I don’t understand :rolleyes:, if you say that any fighting is VT then anything you would do would be a VT response so why ask the questions, just like the biu jee guilloten its all the same thing isn’t it :D[/QUOTE]
Maybe you could tell us how WSL or Barry would get out of these! After all, the elbow aligned punch to the kisser should do it… 
[QUOTE=chusauli;1027506]Maybe you could tell us how WSL or Barry would get out of these! After all, the elbow aligned punch to the kisser should do it… [/QUOTE]
You’re a facetious little knob mobster aren’t you.
Not getting into them in the first place is a good start.
What if scenarios are nothing but hot air filled, circle jerk sessions. Something I hear you’re quite experienced at.
Realistically, there is no tapping out in a real fight. You die or you live, nothing more. If you let someone sink a choke deeply enough, you can’t escape.
Something needs to be done quickly to make the pressure ease to allow you to attempt an escape. Break a finger, bite whatever you can get a hold of.
[QUOTE=shawchemical;1027520]
Realistically, there is no tapping out in a real fight. You die or you live, nothing more. If you let someone sink a choke deeply enough, you can’t escape.[/QUOTE]
LOL… street fights often don’t result in someone going to the hospital or morgue… and people often do “tap” by quitting and giving up.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1027522]LOL… street fights often don’t result in someone going to the hospital or morgue… and people often do “tap” by quitting and giving up.[/QUOTE]
Lol, you must know something about real fights that the rest of the world doesn’t.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1027405]What I am getting at is what WCK responses are there?[/QUOTE]
***What do you think, Robert?
"At the risk of causing a flame war (oh, heck, it IS the wing chun forum) but anyway and any hoo
there are no ‘wing chun answers’…" (lkfmdc/Dave Ross)
…
***Ya’ think?! 
[QUOTE=shawchemical;1027527]Lol, you must know something about real fights that the rest of the world doesn’t.[/QUOTE]
People get into a few fights at a college bar and think that they have representative sample of how it goes down “for real.”
I grew up around some people who have done some serious prison time and they aren’t tough by amateur or professional fighting standards but, your life is in jeopardy if you square up with somebody like that. When you have been around people who have murdered, attempted to murder, conspire to murder, disfigured people, and so on, you are less likely to make off hand remarks about the time that you choked out a college kid and made him give up.
I am from a small town in the Midwest and I find those sorts of comments about street fights pretty laughable too. I am sure that guys from NYC, Dallas, NO, Dade County FL, and such will have a similar reaction.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1027539]People get into a few fights at a college bar and think that they have representative sample of how it goes down “for real.”
I grew up around some people who have done some serious prison time and they aren’t tough by amateur or professional fighting standards but, your life is in jeopardy if you square up with somebody like that. When you have been around people who have murdered, attempted to murder, conspire to murder, disfigured people, and so on, you are less likely to make off hand remarks about the time that you choked out a college kid and made him give up.
I am from a small town in the Midwest and I find those sorts of comments about street fights pretty laughable too. I am sure that guys from NYC, Dallas, NO, Dade County FL, and such will have a similar reaction.[/QUOTE]
If you have been in many fights (or even around when they happen), you quickly figure out that even people who have been in prison often get into fights without someone getting murdered or sent to the hospital.
People who seriously maim or kill others every time they get into an altercation are actually a minority and most of them spend the majority of their adult lives in prison.
LOL at this going from a question on ground escapes to arguing about the lethality of street encounters.
In my experience what groundfighting there is in WC is to do with fighting a standing opponent when you have fallen over, the objective being to get to your feet again ASAP. There is no real concept of positional control. Alan Orr shows how to use “the WC stance” for positional control on a downed opponent but what he does looks exactly like what my BJJ coach, who has not done a WC lesson in his life, advocates in a defense situation when the guy is down but you don’t want to go to the ground yourself. To be fair to Alan, he does also say that there is a degree of commonality across many arts. But he also says IMO in as many words that if you want to groundfight effectively, learn grappling, and practises what he preaches.
Robert, maybe you should ask him, assuming your question is a sincere one.
IMO talking about WC mount and RNC escapes is about as sensible as talking about the fine points of punching and kicking in BJJ.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1027544]If you have been in many fights (or even around when they happen), you quickly figure out that even people who have been in prison often get into fights without someone getting murdered or sent to the hospital.[/QUOTE]
There is a big difference between a guy who spent a few days in county for DWI or an “honor camp” and a guy who went to maximum security prison.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1027544]
People who seriously maim or kill others every time they get into an altercation are actually a minority and most of them spend the majority of their adult lives in prison.[/QUOTE]
Yup… They go to jail and get out get crazy and go back.
What errors were made that caused the WC man to end up in these positions?
IME, arguments about hypothetical scenarios or the “what if” game tends to be redundant. Better just to keep your mouth shut and train, no?
Suki
With great difficultly i imagine, i never saw anything in my wing chun (or any other TCMA i have studied) to deal with those positions, and it seems guys with a lot more expereince than me in wing chun have also not seen anything that would help them. I have seem wing chun ways of dealing with a grounded opponent when you are stood up or where your attacker is stood over you, but non that show how to deal with being underneath someone, i have seen guys try to punch and strike from the bottom but that isnt a great idea
I said on a previous thread, although he has said I can have a school,I dont speak for Barry. I sure don’t speak for WSL. Much like yourself but it more because I don’t think I am at their level to be able to speak for him where as noone will claim you as a student to talk for them.there were only a few who could speak for WSL. I use what I have learnt from my teacher bill (you used to talk on the old net, before the pictures, on the mailing list.), Barry and his other senior guys, in austarlai we are lucky to be close so I have the privalige to leanr off most of Barry senior guys. Other WSL guys and different systems I have been introduced to.
I have never asked Barry. In all the fights he had he didn’t say if he hit the ground. I know he fought a top judo guy who although he won the guy stuffed his back as barry said he wanted to see if he could stop him once he got his hands on him. As barry said he fought to learn so its a bit different.
I personally would use the VT that I could but mainly the grappling like everyone else. I think VT can be used to strike and control when used with proper grappling. This is only learnt by learning grappling. Without learning grappling Vt has no poistional control or possible change. Yes you can lap sao but if you are not doing some sort of sweep or bridge with it then you are still on the ground in the same ty spot. Getting out of the moves means you must learn grappling and then add the VT, yes there are similarities, just like riding a bike and a motor bike. But if you"ve only riden the bike doesn’t mean you can jump straight on a motor bike. I have found many things the same. Even my mistakes, like when starting chi sao when ever someone would hold me I would lock up and struggle. I found I was doing the same when trying to get rid of locks. If I relaxed and exploded then it worked. That is the same as VT. Does that make it a VT move, NO. Its just doing it right. Billy robinson (catch guy) when showing an escape. Pop the hips (bridge) and shoot out the other hand, just like a punch. I saw that and thought, " I thought that was just me thinking VT."
Well here is an answer, so how about you robert. You started this “discussion” so why are you not contributing to it. You wouldn’t just be trolling again. Let me guess, this is your next book or DVD and you are going to use what we say without understanding it. This thread seems alot like a knifefighter thread, lest he isn’t this obvious. You both learnt off hawkins didn’t you. Maybe you fequent under the same Bridges.
I feel sorry for alan, he comes here to try to stand up against the lies people are saying only to read posts and thread were you are obviously just trolling yourself. :o