How do you think the present state of this forum is viewed by newcomers to wing chun?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Vankuen;990019]As far as making it work in this generation…I think what he means to say is that the environment in which we live today is different than it was generations ago. As such, one’s strategy and tactics need to take the external environment into consideration. Not just the physical environment, but also the social, policital, and cultural as well.[/QUOTE]

Yup. When Yip Man was learning WCK, he didn’t come into contact with Muay Thai, Western Boxing or wrestling. When Yip Man taught in HK, many of the younger generation he taught could be considered juvenile delinquents… :slight_smile:

When WCK came to the USA, we didn’t have to fight CLF, Lama, Bak Mei, etc. - we had to make it work against boxing, wrestling, Karate, TKD, kickboxing, etc.

Nowadays, people who practice WCK have to make it work against BJJ, MMA, and continue… Using WCK in today’s USA Society is different because of self defense law.

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[QUOTE=chusauli;990300]Yes, guilty as charged…[/QUOTE]
Then I must say thank you to both you and Rene. That was one of my favorite reads. It really helps to bring together the various ideas that wing chun folks have but more importantly the common themes.

[QUOTE=chusauli;990303]Yup. When Yip Man was learning WCK, he didn’t come into contact with Muay Thai, Western Boxing or wrestling. When Yip Man taught in HK, many of the younger generation he taught could be considered juvenile delinquents… :slight_smile:

When WCK came to the USA, we didn’t have to fight CLF, Lama, Bak Mei, etc. - we had to make it work against boxing, wrestling, Karate, TKD, kickboxing, etc.

Nowadays, people who practice WCK have to make it work against BJJ, MMA, and continue… Using WCK in today’s USA Society is different because of self defense law.[/QUOTE]

Yessir…it’s common sense as far as I thought.

Its one of those things where you’re ****ed if you do and ****ed if you don’t. Change something drastically or add in something that changes the fundamentals of the original style – and now you’re *******izing it. Don’t do anything to it, and you’re setting up the system for its own demise because you’re not keeping up with the times.

It’s a lot like business though: When a firm creates a product that no other firm has, it gains a competitive advantage. That advantage is always temporary however because the competing firms will always try to adapt in order to survive. When another firm creates a product that has a higher relative value to the consumer…we will see the value of the original firm’s product go down. Now that doesn’t mean that the original products actual quality has diminished, it just means that the other firm’s product solves the consumer’s need better.

So now you have to do some research to figure out what steps to take to regain the advantage. In business…this is called a SWOT analysis. You look at your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. From that you can start to devise new strategies, tactics, and techniques by which to stay successful in the present and future environments.

The same can be said of a martial art. We can say that any style was created to solve a need, and was devised to face a specific threat and environment. This new style now has a competitive advantage because it is “new”. Soon though, people who are exposed to the new style learn about it, and adapt to it, perhaps taking some ideas from it, eventually creating a superior performing system of fighting. The original style’s quality didn’t go down, but other styles are now performing better. The only way for the original art to survive from a performance aspect is to adapt to the new enviroment…so you have to seriously look at your systems strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats to figure out what you need to do to stay “on top” so to speak.

I’m glad to see that wing chun authorities like yourself are out there to lead the rest. It brings me hope that perhaps our “industry” may very well weather the storm.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;990229]The whole there-are-good-and-bad-gym-in-everything misses the point. Of course there are. But we are not talking about specific, individual cases but how different arts AS A WHOLE teach and train, the METHODOLOGY itself, not how some specific gym implements it. There is a marked difference between how traditinoal arts teach and train, and the modern sport-oriented arts teach and train. That differencejust isn’t in degree but in kind.

The way WCK is traditionally taught and trained doesn’t develop skill in WCK (which is skill in fighting with your WCK). Nor does it make any sense that you can develop skill against WCK people and not other people – skill is skill. Boxers don’t just develop skill for dealing with other boxers, BJJ people don’t develop skill only against BJJ people. [/quote]
You can’t use the different arts as a whole argument…since you’ve acknowledged that the training methods can vary from one place to the next. What you CAN say is that there are more traditional schools with deficiences in their training methodology as opposed to non traditional schools.

And I beg to differ on the WCK skills. If the way it is traditionally taught doesn’t allow the person to be able to use it, how is it that we have people that CAN use it in application? How is it that I can use it against anyone I fight? How is it you can assumingly use it?

You also missed my point on the gaining skill against other wing chun people thing. Let me use another example then for you: In judo, players randori against other judo players. This enhances their skills even further than it would doing it against a non judo person because a judoka has better throw-countering skills. Therefore–it is logical to say that a person using wing chun in sparring and drilling can get better at wing chun because other WC folks also have better wing chun defense skills. I never said that the skill gained cannot be applied against other fighters. The point of that was to show that the people who came before in general will always have a higher degree of application skill than the ones after. When you go into a BJJ school…you’re not going to be as good as the blue belts. When you make blue belt, you’re still not going to be as good as those same blue belts becuase now those people are likely brown or black belts (assuming the belts are given based on skill and not money).

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;990229]
No, I like the process of thinking things through clearly, and our words express our thoughts. [/quote]
I do as well…its just that our thoughts differ on things based on our individual experiences.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;990229]
Of course the names themselves are arbitrary (you can change the names but the thing itself doesn’t change),but the thing itself isn’t arbitrary. You seem to take the position that it’s-all-good since various arts are doing similar things. But it is not all good, and doing something similar doesn’t mean it is as good. Any old round kick isn’t a thai kick. If this were the case then everyone in every art would be getting similar results-- and they are obviously not.[/quote]
No, I take the position that the fundamental core of each technique is the same and that details are making the differences, and also provide pro’s and con’s. Let me put it to you this way…the TKD round kick can knock you out just as easily as the thai round kick does, the same could be said about the kyokushin round kick.

Each has good qualities, but to say one is overall better than another is just a matter of opinion…namely your opinion. Because there are several fighters that fight full contact all able to knock people out with their round kicks that are from TKD, Muay Thai, and Karate. So that argument of yours has just been debunked.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;990229]
It shows that not all styles are the same or do the same things. And, even styles that do similar things, don’t necessarily do them the same way, have the same effectiveness, train them the same way, etc.
[/quote]
I agree…they don’t do things exactly the same way, but then again I never said they did do it exactly the same way.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;990229]
I know you are saying that and you are wrong. If that were the case, then all punching styles would be as good as boxing, and they’re not. All grappling styles would be as good as BJJ, and they’re not. There are better and worse ways of using your body, and better and worse tactics, strategies, etc. The evidence for this is overwhelming.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately…this is an opinion not fact. It is obvious that you have an affinity towards boxing and round kicks…BJJ and the like. These again are preferences. If they were facts then you wouldn’t have guys who were boxers lose in the UFC. You wouldn’t have TKD and Karate kicks knock people out in the UFC, and you wouldn’t see wrestlers beating BJJ masters.