Why are we here?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Hello,

I just thought I would drop a note asking everyone to think about why they are here.

Are you here to discuss and learn about Wing Chun and to build a better understanding of the various methods available?

Or are you here to stroke your ego and try and convince everyone that your way is the way?

Sometimes we have threads which have the potential to develope into good discussions only to become sidetracked by those who seem to feel the need to promotoe their own agendas. In many instances a few posters will post the same mantra over and over again and derail otherwise productive discussions.

I would ask that anyone not having something to contribute to the discussion at hand show some self control and refrain from jumping in and trying to forward their own agenda.

Give it some thought and let others enjoy this forum and perhaps learn or at least be exposed to differing viewpoints.

2

Reply to why are we here?

Once Sihing73 I was here to share and this was without a doubt the best forum available. Then you banned a great poster. Great because they challenged and provoked thought. This started the decline.

However when the WCML crowd moved here and brought with them all of their bickering and HFY this and HFY that nonsense and you did not ban these people the forum declined to a point where all we ever get is bickering and ego stroking. Now for me instead of a place to share it is just a place to get a chuckle.

3

what are you even talking about? to me, you sound like you are just contributing to the decline you speak of..

4

I am here to discuss martial arts training, philosophy, history, and teaching strategies.

5

Me too. And, I do train in HFY. So Hunt, does what I say fall into this “HFY this and HFY that nonsense” category? Not really sure what you are getting at with that, but sounds like you are only adding to the ‘decline’ of this forum by making those kinds of statements.

6

JP wasn’t always so reasonable…he’s gotten better through the years…LOL :wink: :cool:

Who is this great poster you refer to, Hunt?

I’m here since 2002, so I will probably remember him…and would like to know who it is you refer to.

And I remember your posts form waaay back, and you were always a good contributor to the forum yourself, if I remember correctly.

7

[QUOTE=hunt1;994278]
Then you banned a great poster.
[/QUOTE]

Who was this?

Lots of ‘challenge of ideas’ still going on.. LOL

8

???

[QUOTE=YungChun;994329]Who was this?

Lots of ‘challenge of ideas’ still going on.. LOL[/QUOTE]

Apparently I missed many of these “challenges”. No problem- I visit less than I used to.It’s not important in the scheme of things. Hunt 1 gave a good and honest opinion- but I don’t think it will make much of a difference.

joy chaudhuri

9

Hello,

I would be interested in the identity of the mysterious “great poster” as well.

Am I to take it that you think I banned someone without a legitimate reason? If so I would be interested in learning more as you have never, to my recollection, brought this up to me before; there is always the PM venue and I always expressed my willingness to discuss matters even if I did not agree. In addition, there is always the option of going to Gene or Sandman2 if one does not agree with something.

This used to be a much more heavily moderated forum and IMHO, it was a better place then. However, the majority preferred less moderation and with that the downward spiral seems to have taken place. Just my opinion and not necessarily accurate but one pov in any case.

10

Here’s some thoughts on “moderating”, Dave…

It will call for some jugdement calls on your part, and you won’t always be right - but nobody’s perfect.

There are ways of saying things - and there are ways of saying things.

For example, I recently said something about a “ridiculous” wing chun punch being thrown from a distance that was too far away…in a vid of an mma fight that included a wing chun guy. It was his punch I was referring to.

The guy contacted me, and we had a phone discussion. Turns out the match in question was from 3 years ago, and he does now use some boxing type moves from certain distances, he told me…something I’ve been talking about for some time now.

And needless to say, many don’t agree with me when I say that you enhance your wing chun game by using boxing type moves from certain distances.

But the point is this: the use of the word “ridiculous” can be taken to be a personal insult, and the guy had a point in contacting me to say that we wing chun guys need to stick together since so many people in the mma world, for example, have nothing but contempt for wing chun…

and for me to use such a word is counter-productive to wing chun as a whole.

He’s got a point.

And as I think back to why I used that word…I remember thinking that it was Knifefighter who started the thread and he was using this guy’s fight as an example of good wing chun (albeit in an mma setting that included grappling)…

and as I thought about it…I began to realize that I used such a word as a reaction to so many of Knifefighter’s posts through the years that have degraded wing chun enormously…and when I saw an example of what he thought was good wing chun - and realizing that the reason the guy had to defend a shoot immediately was because he led with a wing chun punch from too far away - which left him open to a shoot…

I realized that my strong “language” was a shot at Knifefighter - and his lack of knowledge/experience with wing chun strategies and techniques that work…and in so doing, a wing chun guy who has real fighting skills, is in excellent shape, and has the guts to try and get into the UFC…feels slighted by my remarks.

I’M JUST USING THIS AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I’M ABOUT TO GET AT…

It will take more work on your part, and some people might not like it, but my suggestion is this:

When you see a post that’s questionable because it’s too insulting in some way…contact the poster, and tell him to find a better way to express his point about this or that…because this or that word, phrase, sentence, paragragh is too insulting…

and if he refuses to modify his post somewhat (you tell him)…you will be forced to delete his post entirely.

So for example, you could have contacted me to say that I should try to make my point without using a word like “ridiculous”…that I could make the same exact point without such a word…and I could have edited my post to say something like this:

"Kudos to the guy for doing mma, he looks like he’s in good shape (things I did, in fact, say)…

“Kudos to the guy for doing mma, he’s in good shape, but I think the reason why he had to defend a shoot so often was because he was throwing short range wing chun punches from too far away.”

I legitimate “criticism” (at least from my point of view)…but one that is not meant to be insulting, and probably wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) be taken as an insult - because I chose my words carefully.

People might disagree with my assessment, and a debate/argument might ensue.

But at least personal insults would be left out if it - or words that can easily be taken as a personal attack.

More work and more “guidelines” to be enforced on your part…but perhaps the end result would be more interesting discussions and debates…and less hijacking of threads by trolls, jerks who just get off on being nasty, and know-it-alls that keep other people from wanting to participate.

11

I’d say to focalize on the ones that CONSISTENTLY and BLATENTLY cause arguments in every thread that they’re in. It’s obvious who those people are.

I’ve been on this forum (off and on) for a looong time. I “know” people on here from past interactions that were quite rewarding. All the conversations were about learning and discussing things wing chun.

Now I don’t mind talk of MMA mind you, as I am a fan of watching it, and I have always trained in other arts in addition to wing chun. But if the poster’s only agenda is to prove their way is better than that’s another thing to address for moderation.

The key is that a one time a-hole thing is normal, even a two time a-hole thing may be normal as well…but when someone is consistently rocking the boat so to speak…then its obvious that person is the problem.

12

Dave don"t you have a list of who has been banned? It was several years ago. I am not sure of the persons screen name anymore. Cant’ be many banned folks. The name related to wing chun but I am old and my memory has slipped. As for the reason the person was banned I did not think the person should have been banned but you are the mod and its your call. I am sure at the tile I said so on the forum but I am sure many were in favor or it wouldn.t have come down to banning.

Jp not you per se but there was a time on the WCML and then here when it seemed that the whole WCML moved here that there were constant arguments about HFY. Was it legit? Did GG make it up? Was it stolen from TWC etc etc. VTM members were at the fore front of once side and no doubt you know who was leading the charge on the other side.

From my POV when the experts and know it all’s from the WCML moved here this forum lost a great deal. Sure people disagreed but it was never personal. I could have a heated discussion with a person in one thread and have total agreement with them on another with no hard feelings and I learned a’lot in the bargain.

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[QUOTE=hunt1;994384]

From my POV when the experts and know it all’s from the WCML moved here this forum lost a great deal. Sure people disagreed but it was never personal. I could have a heated discussion with a person in one thread and have total agreement with them on another with no hard feelings and I learned a’lot in the bargain.[/QUOTE]

Hunt1,

For the record, I must say I’ve always had an admiration for your posts. The wisdom in this last post here once again shows why.

Best to you.

14

Hunt1,

I train HFY. I haven’t been around for as long as some others but I see the many posts that get derailed. However, when personal insults begin, things get heated. Some posters don’t care about respect or carrying on a conversation.

I would agree some post only to get a reaction. Some profess their personal experience should lead the way for ALL WC and they tend to get upset when others don’t follow. Everyone chooses his his own path.

15

[QUOTE=Sihing73;994141]Hello,

I just thought I would drop a note asking everyone to think about why they are here.

Are you here to discuss and learn about Wing Chun and to build a better understanding of the various methods available?

Or are you here to stroke your ego and try and convince everyone that your way is the way?
[/QUOTE]

For myself, I see argument as a way of learning, of exploring and determining the validity of our ideas, of examining the evidentiary and logical basis for our views.

Having our ideas challenged, criticized, dissected is a GOOD, positive thing. It’s like sparring, you want to put yourself in a situation of getting hit, subbed, etc. since that’s how you learn. You have to constantly take yourself outside of your comfort zone, both intellectually and physically. When people don’t want to do that and don’t like it, I think it tells you something.

Sometimes we have threads which have the potential to develope into good discussions only to become sidetracked by those who seem to feel the need to promotoe their own agendas. In many instances a few posters will post the same mantra over and over again and derail otherwise productive discussions.

And, what you may call a “productive” or “good discussion” someone else may call something else.

I would ask that anyone not having something to contribute to the discussion at hand show some self control and refrain from jumping in and trying to forward their own agenda.

Give it some thought and let others enjoy this forum and perhaps learn or at least be exposed to differing viewpoints.

That’s a fine idea, and maybe another idea is the realization that conversation and argument, like dancing, takes two persons.

16

[QUOTE=hunt1;994278] However when the WCML crowd moved here and brought with them all of their bickering and HFY this and HFY that nonsense and you did not ban these people the forum declined to a point where all we ever get is bickering and ego stroking. Now for me instead of a place to share it is just a place to get a chuckle.[/QUOTE]

Personally, I really like and enjoy discussions with the HFY people.

17

Here is the issue.
This is a MA forum and this forum in particular is about WC.
People come here to discuss WC and how THEY view WC.
Its not about right or wrong as much as “my way, your way, they way I was taught” etc.
People need to realize that someone doing something different doesn’t mean they are right and you are wrong, it means they are doing something different.
It doesn’t matter what ANYONE else has done or is doing, it matters what WE can do.
Many arguments start when our precsious bubble is under attack and someone dares to say “prove it”, or “show me” and as MA that shouldn’t happen because MA is ALL in the DOING and very little in the saying/writing.
Yes, it is NOT necessary for every thread to degrade to the point of “MMA vs WC”, but the fact is, at this stage right now, MMA is what ALL other MA are compared to.
Don’t like?
Make a statement like the MA of yesteryears did, Fight to prove you are right.

Most of us are very content to exchange POV about WC or any other MA we have experience in, without trying to convert the masses to any particular MA.

In the end we are all victims of our experiences and upbring in out chosen MA(s) and as such we have all inherent biasis in favour of what we prefer to do and that is OK, we just have to acknowledge it.

My only true issue on this forum and any other is those that DON’T “prove” any of their assertions.

18

Sihing73 could the name I am looking for be WhippingHand? The whip has not been seen for ages. Sorry about the old memory. Vic, Duende thanks.

JP after rereading I understand what you are saying. I wasn’t saying anything about HFY just pointing out that the HFY discussions from 5 or 6 years ago or so was the most egregious example of what I was referring too. May have been even further back than that. Again the time when negative forum developed is when the most vocal WCML folks migrated here.

Those who were not here before that time sadly can’t relate to what I am saying those that were know exactly what I am talking about.

19

TN doing something that is enjoyable for you, indulges your basic nature and fills your psychological needs does not mean it is at all enjoyable or productive for others and is selfish. While I agree with many things you say I do not agree with your absolutist way of doing so.

For example I do not agree with Vic as to the need of adding boxing to WC for long range effectiveness. My experience is different however that does not make me right and Vic wrong. If I had his experience and knowledge I may have come to the same opinion as he holds.

You accuse Vic of training with scrubs. Unless you have trained with them how can you know. Perhaps you train with scrubs and his lowest partner could wipe the floor with everyone you know. Your exp does not make Vic or anyone else wrong. Their exp is equally valid.

20

[QUOTE=hunt1;994469]Sihing73 could the name I am looking for be WhippingHand? The whip has not been seen for ages. Sorry about the old memory. Vic, Duende thanks.
[/QUOTE]

I thoght you might of been talking about Whippinghand! I enjoyed his posts too!