Hold to the basics

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I have found it quite wide spread amongst many Wing Chun practicioners that a certain mindset exists, one which limits their development in Wing Chun, and constricts their understanding of the system. The mindset I am refering to is the tendancy to overlook the powerful place of the most basic elements of Wing Chun and to try and race ahead to what is considered the “meat” of the system. An example of this is the importance of the YJKYM in the SLT tao form and the role that the SLT plays in the development of the stance. Though there are few who would not subscribe to the importance of the stance, the importance of performing the form slowly and carefully to develop the stance, those same people who subscribe to its importance, seem to grow bored of the form very easily and want to move on the Chum Kui, Bui Jee or anything else which seems more exciting and tantalising, and in so doing sacrifice the time and energy needed to lay the right foundation, therefore when they actually touch hands with someone who has understood and have actively sought to train and develop the basics, they find that they have no ability against such a person. The blame is laid on whom? the system? the student? or the Sifu? I believe its all and none at the same time, and I dont think it is as simple a matter as holding out one element in isilation to the rest, but I believe there to be a singular reason, which contains the three elements, which is the market driven aproach to martial arts, selling out the integrity of the art for a fistful of dollars, and a handful of convienience. Martial arts has becime big business that is more concerned with the McDonalds approach of “give the customer what they want” rather than what is needed in terms of an effective and transparent approach to the system, one that is rooted not in the the mere trickery of a a-z approach to martial arts complete with a pretty belt at the end of it, whos only meaning is tied into how nice the cloth is, but an approach that is rooted in the concpet of Wing Chun being a dynamic and alive way of approaching the problem at hand. Too many are not willing or maybe indeed able to fit within the parameters of the system, not being able to clearly see the goal of moving from naturalness, awkwardness, back to naturalness again, disolving the system into your own being, so that it is like breathing.

The correct mindset, learn to love the simple things of Wing Chun, learn to cling to the basics until they have become yours and you own them, dont be taken in by the formalised constructs of curriculum, learn to find the system and dont loose your own fluidity and aliveness. and always hold on to the basics, build a sure foundation that will last.

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yeah i agree on many accounts of ur statement people ask me bout showin them wing chun when i start doin the for slt there like dont u jump around and sh1t im like it aint fancy real combat aint its violent otherwise wed all do it. one thing i found hard is the front stance but now rfter 3 years of training its like ive always had it likme foot placement just me but i know slt and the advanced bless gm william cheung but yeh i know them back to front.

better to be good at one technique then be ok at 50

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This sounds similar to the situation in some kinds of meditation courses (like theravada and zen) where the basics are the sitting posture and a very simple object of attention like the in-and-out breath. There’s nothing tantalizing about the in-and-out breath, and the students soon start asking or silently longing for visualizations, mantras, cosmic experiences and other kinds of entertainment. But the point of the ‘boring’ meditation is to reduce the mind’s expectations and desire for entertainment, until it just rests in plain awareness. That position is the basic position of mental training, at least the little I understand of it. Sometimes the most important lessons are so quiet and modest you would hardly notice it, though it’s been in your face all the time. YMMV, thanks for your inspiring post, I think I’ll go do SLT now:)

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Good post! I agree with you especially the last part is a good advice to all newcomers in Wing Chun.

GJ

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Your intentions are good, bcbernam777, but trying to preach to a generation that’s been brought up on popcorn and NHB TV shows, you are wasting your time.

I try to tell all that would listen that you need to be proficient in chisau first before you go into free sparring, but my voice is losed in the bussh, bussh, sound of the clash of boxing gloves

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CSK,

and I’ll tell you, that my experience teaching and observing has been that if I show someone the pure mechanic of an action (position their body, line 'em up so they have things right out to the hand and down to the floor), create a drill that brings out that mechanic (walk in and crash, for instance), create a limited sparring environment where they have to use that mechanic (cut in on a straight punch, aka jab sparring), then show the chi sao (jum), students run down far fewer blind alleys and develop proficiency in chi sao at a much greater rate and frequency.

BCB,

while I wholeheartedly agree with you about the importance of the basics, that importance is what leads to the delusion that standing around for 30 minutes a day will lead to martial achievement or skill- something proven patently false by many Wing Chun and taiji players.

Most teachers don’t have the basics, of those that do, few realize how they got them or how to efficiently transmit them, of their students few realize the importance of those basics, unless the teacher is someone able to convey that importance. The system. . . much as the system annoys me on occasion, the system is clear as day about the work you need to do and what matters.

Andrew

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Here’s some stuff from Michael Jen’s UG Q&A. It’s geared towards grappling, but applies to WCK and any combat sport, really:

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Ccdog1955, since I know who you are, I can tell you exactly where you are going wrong with your training. You have the mentality of “you can be successful just with the basics”, however, it is in the completely wrong direction. You get a bunch of videos and take lessons with various instructors in search of the those fine details to perfect your basics. The problem is that ever instructor has a different way of doing the basics, however, in your mind, you tend to think that there is one “perfect” way of doing it and you are in search of that way. With all your videos and lessons with various instructors, you have not gotten any closer to perfecting your basics because that single perfect way does not exist.

In addition, with all the details you have learned from various sources, you aren’t improving in significant manner because you don’t understand how to apply it in a dynamic situation. Why? Because there is no system. You are learning “perfect” technique in isolated static situations. What you have done is like a karate or kung fu guy who is trying to do the perfect kata yet wondering why they can’t get that perfect kata to work in sparring.

Since you can’t get all the perfect kata you have learned to work, you are now looking into the “mental approach”. You are now going to the complete opposite end of the spectrum. So you are now looking into all the theories and principles that other higher level people are talking about. This stuff is nothing but fancy words for your situation. You may sit there and ponder the greatness of what some higher level person says, but you don’t know how to turn that into practical application.

By the way, your age has nothing to do with any of this. I have students who are as old as you are and we never talk about age being some sort of hinderance to progressing or any reason to change the gameplan in comparison to younger students.

One other thing is that plagues your training group is a lack of training methodology. That is also a big reason why you have such a big gap between your “technique” and your “mental aspect”.

Let me describe what your average training session is probably like. You get there and grab someone to practice some techniques you saw on the latest video you got. You do some reps, but each training session you’re probably throwing in a couple more things you saw in a video. Then some guys there want to practice some NHB. Maybe some other guy wants to mess around with sticks or takedowns. Then you say that you just want to roll. When you roll, you go 100% and all those techniques you learned in the videos or privates you took all went out the door as you play the same game that you have played for the past few years. Then you wonder why you can’t get past a certain plateau in your skills.

If you want to improve, you need to cut all that crap out and completely restructure your training session.

OK, let me first start off and say that if you don’t have the interest or discipline to focus on one thing for a long time, this program will be useless for you.

Let’s say pin escapes is your weakest area and since pin escapes is applicable for gi, no gi, and MMA, it’s a one to use as an example. By the way, for MMA, before you worry about how to handle strikes when escaping pins, you need to know to escape when there are no strikes, so “sportive” techniques are still applicable for you entire training program.

For 2 days of the week, you should get together with a training partner and “figure stuff out”. This means ABSOLUTELY NO ROLLING. The reason I say this is because too many people always just jump into rolling too quickly and if I say you can roll a little, that little bit eventually turns into a lot.

These 2 days is about problem solving. Pick one or two very specific problems one work on that. No more than one or two things. We are using pin escapes as an example. First decide what position your opponent is going to start in since there are many different pinning positions. Let’s say we isolate him hooking one arm behind your neck and the other around your chest.

With pin escapes, the first thing is to get your arms into posture. Don’t worry about maintaining posture or the escape, we just need to get your arms into proper position first. Let’s also assume you and your training partner already know some basic pin escapes and this is not your first month in jiu-jitsu. Have your opponent squeeze you a little and keep his head down and now try to get your arms in posture.

If you can’t get your arms into posture or feel like you are using a lot of strength, then that is your first problem to solve. Let’s say that your partner is positioning his head in a certain way that makes it difficult for you to get your arm into position. Isolate that specific head position and figure out how to get around that specific form of resitance. The partner is to hold that position and may not counter what you are doing or change his head position.

Figuring this out may take 5 minutes, it may take 30 minutes, it may take 1 hour. You do not leave the training room until you figure out the solution to the problem.

Sometimes as you are trying to figure out the solution, switch positions with your partner and pin him in the exact same position he was pinning you. Have him give it a try. Sometimes when you are on top, you can feel where the weakness in the pin is better than the person on the bottom. Give suggestions to your training partner on the bottom on how he can possibly get his arm in. You need to constantly get feedback from each other if you want to speed up the process.

Be honest with yourself when it comes to the amount of strength you are using. If you get your arm into posture, ask yourself if you could have done the same thing to someone who was 50 lbs. heavier. If it took a bit more strength to accomplish, then that may not be the right answer.

If you think you found the answer, tell your partner to keep the exactly same position and don’t counter by changing his positioning, but add more strength into his resistance. See if it still works when dealing with more strength. If it doesn’t, then go back to “figuring stuff out”.

If you figure one thing out fairly quickly, then ask your opponent how he could chang his head positioning to counter what you figured out. Once he changes his head positioning, isolate that specific position and repeat the same process. If it took you 1 hour to figure out 1 thing, then just stop and do not moving onto a second thing. Only move onto the next thing if you figured out the first thing in under 30 minutes. Why? Because this is a thinking game and you need your mind to be fresh and sharp. If you go over an hour, your mind tends to start to get burnt out.

The reason I say not to cover more than 2 things is because it will ensure that you remember what you have figured out. You will notice that, in our example, I have isolated a problem area down to its smallest component.

The next time you do another “figuring stuff out” session, first review what you covered the last time. Many times the technique you figured out last session suddenly won’t work as perfectly as it did before. Figure out why. Do no move onto something else until you figure out why it was working at the end of last session, but is not working now.

If you do this, at the end of the month, you will have added at least 8 new things into your game. Keep in mind that I said “things”, not techniques. What you figured out could have been small details, a technique, a strategy, an issue on timing, etc… Do not think that what you figure out has to be a “new” technique.

After you have covered all the possible ways to position the head to prevent the arms to get in posture, then keep the same arm position, but have your partner change his body positioning. Maybe change the angle, or sprawl, or up on his knees, whatever… Isolate that one body change and see how that prevents you from getting your arms into posture. Now the “figuring out” process starts all over.

Eventually, you can change the arm position and eventually to a different pin position and process starts over again. You can see that you can easily spend months just working posture and how you can spend years trying to get good at pin escapes.

If you follow this plan, I can guarantee that you will remember what you figured out better than what you were taught in videos, seminars, etc…

I will continue with his later and also discuss how you should spend your training time on the other days.

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Unfortunately, many people believe that the learning process for BJJ is and should be different than established and proven learning methods. I think that is why so many people in BJJ do not progress as quickly as they could and never reach their full potential.

OK, back to the “figuring stuff out” training days…

As you figure out how to get your arm into posture, do not do anything else besides that. Do not do another technique or escape even if it seems like it may be the better option based on your partners resistance. Force this one thing- get your arms into posture. That’s it. This has 2 purposes. One, it’s the whole idea of get good at one thing before we move onto another. Two, the better you get at forcing that one thing your partner will have to do an even greater exaggerated movement in order to stop it. This will make a “follow up” or combination technique even easier in the future.

Especially if you do not have an instructor that you see constantly, do not look at videos, seminars, or the occasional private for all your answers. Unfortunatly, most people think that all their answers will be found in the newest video by the latest champion. Think of those training aids as a guide to steer you in the right direction. Once you are steered in the right direction, you must travel the rest of the path yourself. It is impossible for a video or instructor to teach you how to handle every position situation and nuance.

I once again can’t stress enough how important it is to discuss and get constant, “on the spot” feedback from your training partner. “On the spot” means that if your partner feels a split second opening and thinks he knows how you can possibly get your arm in posture, he should immediately tell you. He should not wait after you have struggled for 5 minutes.

I can say that in my own training, my purple belt has helped me progress as much as any instructor I have taken a lesson with. The goal of the partner is to help you figure out the problem, not prevent you from figuring out by being competative. The partner should not give any addition resistance or counter besides what he has been specified to do.

As you are figuring out how to get your arms into posture, try to also figure out and start to pay attention to the underlying principles and concepts to what you are doing. You will find that there are universal principles. It is ESSENTIAL that you figure out these principles as your figure out the techniques, details, etc… The goal is to slowly bridge the gap between technique and principles. This is what will allow you to be able to sucessfully improvise in an technical manner in the future when you are placed in an unfamiliar situation.

Remember what I said in the past. Principles alone mean nothing. They are just fancy words. Memorization of numerous techniques has limited benefit because your brain can only memorize a certain amount before you start forgetting things. In any fighting art, you must know how to improvise and turned thought into instinct.

If you are training 5 days a week, do this 2 of the days. If you are training 3 days a week, do this one of the days. Of course, this training methodology is for improving your skill and should not be followed if you are getting ready for a competition in the near future.

More to come later…

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Good training partners are difficult to find, however, the problem is that most people don’t open their mouths and ask others if they want to train like this. People tend to hope that they will just see someone else who “trains well” and that person to ask will be the obvious choice or that someone else will ask them. In addition, most people tend to be too timid take charge and be the leader of the training session. They allow the other people to lead them into chaos.

But I will say that it is easier for me as an instructor since I can just grab a student and make them train with me the way that I want to train. I guess you guys need to think of it like asking a girl out on a date. Since you guys aren’t as good looking as I am, the women aren’t going to just come up to you. You’re going to give to make some effort and to ask them out. You might get some rejections, but if you are persistant, you will get a date.

Now back to the training sessions…

As I said, I recommend 2 of the 5 days to be “figuring stuff out”. Other remaining days should be spend for live drilling and isolation rolling.

If you goal is to improve a specific area, a minimal amount of your training time should be spent rolling all out. One thing that plagues BJJ training is the “let’s just roll syndrome”. When you just roll and do everything, calculate how much time you actually spend in the position you want to work on. That amount of time is actually very little. So this is not very productive when it comes to improving your weakness. In addition, when people roll all out, they tend to get competative which means they want to avoid their weaknesses in order to win or look bad. At this point in your training, rolling all out is mainly just beneficial to improve your conditioning.

When you go into these training sessions, you must enter with the proper training mentality. First, you must have one specific and realistic goal in mind. Your goal should be to execute the one thing that you figured out in your “figuring stuff out” training session. Your goal needs to be very specific, just like when you were figuring stuff out. Do not go into training with 10 goals in mind. Do not have a general goal like, “I’m going to work on my escapes”. This will do nothing but lead to disappointment. Most people tend to overshoot their goals, not be able to remember the 10 things they wanted to do when rolling, come up short, and then be disppointd in themselves. It is very easy to remember one thing, even in action. If you accomplished that one thing, that’s great and you can feel good about yourself and your training. If you accomplish more than your 1 goal, then that’s just a bonus.

Second, you must not care what others think. It does not matter how many times you get tapped or how many people you tap out. You must not care if a lower belt might make you look bad. It is stupidly amusing how many people actually count and keep track of that ****. It order to improve your weaknesses, you must put yourself in vulernable situations which often will cause you to lose or look bad. Remember that you learn the most from losing, not from winning. Also, one thing that higher belts must get rid of is the mentality in which they feel the necessity to kick the ass of a lower belt if that lower belt makes them look bad. I call tell you that every higher belt has had this mentality in their career. Your classmates are your training partners, you do not want your training partner to feel fearful or uncomfortable training with you because one day they may not want to train with you as a result of it. You want classmates and training partners that can tap you or give you a hard time. That is the only way to improve. Think of it this way- how much will a black belt improve if he only trains with white belts? Not very much.

More to come later…

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On these training days, 80 - 100% of your time should be spent on pin escapes. Personally, I am not a big fan of high repetition on a compliant partner when it comes to practicing techniques. Of course, you do need to have done enough repetition to have the move down fairly well. However, I believe in getting most repetition in through progressive controlled resistance.

When you go to a group class or training, you should analyze each person there and figure out what they can offer you in regards to helping your improve your pin escapes. You should figure out how you can structure the few minutes you have with each person to maximize your ability to improve your pin escapes.

Women and smaller, lesser skilled men are great people to start off training with. Have them start off in side control and try to get your arms into posture. Guage how much strength you are using. If you find yourself grunting or using a decent amount of strength, there is something seriously wrong with your technique. If if you find it too easy, then give them some tips on how to improve their pin to make it harder for you. Most people would appreciate the advice. On a person who is weak or lesser skilled, you should be able to do your technique with little strength and in slow motion. No explosiveness. Some guys tend not to like training with women or significantly smaller guys because they don’t feel they gain much from in. If you goal is to “kick ass and win”, then, yes, you won’t gain much from it. If you want to get in some repetition on something you are weak at, training with them can be extremely beneficial because you can easily control the situation. If you can’t accomplish your goal on the women and smaller guys, don’t even bother with the bigger, stronger, or more skilled guys.

Once you have gotten proficient with your goal with them, then move onto the guys that are stronger or more skilled. If they are far too skilled or strong, ask them if they would be willing to limit what they are doing. For example, if you have only worked on getting your arms into posture for side control, ask them not to go to knee-on-stomach, north-south, or modified scarf hold. It never hurts to ask.

If you are unable to get posture on someone who is much more skilled or stronger, IMMEDIATELY BEGIN TO MAKE MENTAL NOTES AND PICTURES ON WHAT HE IS DOING! Even ask how he is able to stop your movement. Once again, it never hurts to ask! Rather than being disappointed that you could not obtain your goal on these stronger or more skilled classmates, you be glad that they have automatically given you your next problem to figure out in your “figuring stuff out” session.

More to come…

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Like I said, I only believe in doing enough static reps to get the move down fairly well. Once you have the move down fairly well, I believe their are much more productive ways to increase proficiency that doing hundreds or thousands of more static reps. Static reps build coordination and feel for the technique, however, it also only builds feel for that single static position/situation.

I have had students that were less coordinated and did not catch on quickly. I had them do many reps and in a static demonstration, they could do the technique very well, however, in a dynamic situation with movement and resistance, none of that translated over. That is why I believe that is it important to get the reps in through controlled progressive resistance. It’s the old saying, “You fight like you train and train like you fight”.

People also tend to remember things better when they figure things out themselves. Somehow those things tend to stick in your brain a lot better. So for less coordinated people, I will put them in a situation with controlled resistance, isolate one small idea I want them to focus on (that is probably only a small part of the entire movement), and create a situation and conditions that will lead them into what I want them to figure out. Once they have the moment of enlightment and figure it out themselves, it becomes ingrained into them much faster. Then I use the same process for the next part of the movement and repeat the process until they have the complete movement. I just keep guiding them into the direction that I want. I found this method works a lot better than high static reps.

The reason people feel the need for high reps is because they are trying to “master” the complete movement all at once. Then when they roll, they need are trying to pull off the complete move. What I do is only have the student do a part of the movement but do it and learn it in a dynamic situation. There’s a big difference between teaching methodologies here.

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Once again, back to training…

We’ve all heard the saying, “Two heads are better than one”. This is very true if you can learn how to work well with your training partner.

If you have a good training partner, try to not have him roll when you are rolling and vice versa. If you are working your pin escape with someone, have your partner watching on the side, making mental notes on the mistakes you may be making or if the guy you are training with is countering in an unexpect way. Many times, that training partner can see a lot more of what is going on that you can when you are on the bottom of someone else’s pin.

There will be so many instances where you, as the person on the bottom of the pin, think you are doing something correctly, but somehow it is not working and you feel extremely frustrated. However, the partner sitting on the side can see clearly that you are doing something wrong or missing something.

Of course you should do the same for your partner. The development of this type of observation skills and analysis is extremely important. Now that I think about it, this is the beginning of training your mind to do “reverse engineering” and “performance coaching” in the future. These observation and analysis skills is what has allowed me personally to analyze Marcelo Garcia’s back control game by watching videos of him competing and figuring out things far beyond what he taught me in my private lessons with him or what he teaches on his videos.

You should never have a training session end with your partner asking you, “What did I do wrong?” and you responding, “I don’t know.”. You should always have an answer- even if that answer is, “Your opponent did ‘this’ and we haven’t figured out how to handle that yet.”

I’m not saying that a certain amount of static repetition is not necessary. I’m just not one to recommend that a person needs to do 500 reps in a row at one time.

I have a general teaching method that I follow and it does consist of some static reps. I found that 99% of students learn very well from the method I use, however, occasionally, there is the 1% that just doesn’t “get it”. No matter how many reps I forced that person to do, the student just can’t get it to translate over to live rolling. In fact, for these students, I find that thinking too much is their worst enemy.

So for those few students, I start off with minimal static reps and go right to dynamic drills. I have been able to make these partcular students progress much faster than the “regular” way.

As an instructor, I sometimes have to realize that my standard way just doesn’t work for a particular student. I used to get very frustrated at the student, however, I realized that I will never be able to change the student’s personality and mental capabilities, so to be a good teacher, I had to change my method.

The problem with many instructors is that they will change the technique they are teaching rather than the teaching method. For example, if a student has a problem with smashing when passing the guard, the instructor will say, “It must not be for you. Just run around fast instead.”

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BCB this is a very good post as I have stated in other posts, Wing Chun has been reduced to the “laughing stock” of the Martial Arts world by Latte Drinking Instructors who have received their certification via correspondence courses, attending seminars and training for a mere 18 months.

These clowns then go, open up a Club, hang their little Sifu Certificates on their walls, tie up their Red or Yellow Satin/Silk sashes, rant and rave about Lineage, you know the crap “I am a 4th generation Instructor of the Leung Ting Lineage” … blah blah blah or the “I was trained by Grandmaster William Cheung himself” … who the hell cares !!!

And then guess what, they start explaining something like Siu Lum Tao and then for “the initiated” you find out that basically the guy is an idiot and knows “Jack All”. In the meantime those who are new to the Art do not get taught the basics, they do not get taught how to apply the Art, they enter tournaments and get their arses kicked, they then blame the Art saying it is a load of crap.

Poor Instruction is rife in the Wing Chun World, regardless of whether you are on the Modified or Traditional side of things, yes the Art has been reduced to a conversatiuon piece amongst the Latte Trained Instructors out there. Here is something to note why do these Instructors always try and impress everyone by doing Chi Sau blindfolded, when their standard of chi-sau is poor.

Get back to basics is totally correct, providing the “Latte Drinking Wing Chun Red/Gold Sash Cheung/Ting Lineage Instructor” knows how and what the basics are, to tell you the truth they wouldn’t know what the basics are if it jumped up and kicked them up the arse.

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On that point I went in a tournament first one i came fourth. In my state we only really have one tournament and its mainly a karate thing neway I probly woulda won the thing but the ref wouldnt allow trapping lap sao and close range fighting which suked so i learnt to kickbox fast and still came fourth and fought all my fights with no rest 4 times 3minutes when most had 1 to 2 fights rest. From this exp I didnt blame wing chun I blame myself for running out of puff in the last minute and I would blame my ref for bein a ignorant fool and not respecting the fact that it was all styles and different styles fite diff. One final thing I basically pak everyone thats it u dont realise the meaning of forward energy till u fight peps that aint got none so I trapped most fights and got in trouble and we couldnt use elbow and knees. A bad tradesman always blames the system wing chun is adaptable just open ur mind to it.

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Are you content ?

Those latte drinking wanna be’s will always exist. Nice post Fiamacho.
The Blindfold Chi sao call, rings true in our neck of the woods…

Ive come to the conclusion that if others are getting a Mcdojo version its just improving the value of what i have so i have no axe to grind in this regard.

The basics are being broken everywhere but unfortunately the just dont know any better.

Ive seen Flat Bong Sao’s, Thumbs flailing, straight font legs in YJKYM, leaning bodies, poor timing, missing actions, Crossed hands, flying elbows, round actions !
Body positions with the Lok Dim Boon and Baat Chum Do that would get you seriouusly injured…

The Basics are the most important part of a style, some schools dont like the running punch they think punching the air is a waste of time or standing on one leg is usless, well each to thier own, but these things are more than what you see at face value the have Principles and structures that can be applied to other actions or even other arts if you are looking to become a MMA.

At the end of the day…What can we do ???
IMHO -
Be happy with what WE’VE got…

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AndrewS sez:

CSK,

and I’ll tell you, that my experience teaching and observing has been that if I show someone the pure mechanic of an action (position their body, line 'em up so they have things right out to the hand and down to the floor), create a drill that brings out that mechanic (walk in and crash, for instance), create a limited sparring environment where they have to use that mechanic (cut in on a straight punch, aka jab sparring), then show the chi sao (jum), students run down far fewer blind alleys and develop proficiency in chi sao at a much greater rate and frequency.

Andrew: if you can’t handle dan chi, you can’t handle suong chi. If you can’t handle soung chi at low intensity, you can’t handle soung chi at high intensity…
How can you handle free sparring whereby you can use the hands and legs when you haven’t reached at least a proficient level in chisau when only the hands are in play?

I’m not doubting your method, but I have yet to see it for myself. Do you have a student in the UK or Hong Kong? Not being disrespectful, but I have long learnt that there are varying levels of good.

For me, the best way to improve chisau is actually doing chisau.

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If you can’t juggle 1 ball, how can you juggle 4?

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Pov

I see both Andrews POV and CSK’s.

CSK i think andrew is not reffering to ‘free sparring’ as you put it but applying it in a ‘controlled’ sparring enviroment (is this right andrew ?)

I can see how this would give them a ‘leg up’ for its use in Chi Sao, its all how a student catches the ‘idea’ of an action IMO.

Also i believe you are talking about different circumstances.

I often tell my Si Dei to remember there is one way to use an action from a touching (chi Sao) position and another when you recieve an action from a Non contact situation.
(Largely due to more force as a bi product of the bodies momentum)

Jum sau from a contact position has more downward force…
The same Jum Sau for a comming punch has a retrieting/downward force applyed which is ‘less’ apparent than when you use it from a contact stage
(im generalising situations).

I can see Andrews approach ‘could’ give the student the ability to distinguish between the two differences where as just knowing the Chisao use, is limiting to the average student without a person pointing it out or them feeling and discovering the difference for themselves which would leave too much to chance.

Im just thinking aloud here…but my point still stands. :rolleyes:

P.S enjoyed the post Rene thanks :wink:

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***GOT TO AGREE COMPLETELY with AndrewS about this…spending months and months standing still in a “perfect” neutral stance while doing SLT for half an hour…or spending months and months doing dan chi sao and what not (including double armed chi sao)…and other basic drills (like pak sao)…bong sao/larp sao, etc…

BEFORE ever engaging in the kinds of “sparring-like” (but not actual sparring) drills as Andrew described…is a waste of a lot of valuable time, imo.

Show them some basics - and then create some sort of semi-realistic drill to test those basics - that’s the way to go.

17

I think ‘semi-realistic’ is the key word (er… words). Particularly for people beginning WCK, throwing them into very realistic, totally uncooperative sparring won’t help them hone their technique. Well, that is to say, it will help them generate a technique that will probably be effective for them in the short-term, but in the long run they may well be picking up bad habits that they’ll only have to get rid of later in order to use their body more efficiently.

I’m not one who believes that if you put a bunch of monkeys and some sparring gloves in a ring together they will become the most effective fighters. They’ll be able to fight, true, but if they drill their bodies into efficient monkey-fighting shapes and structures, they’d be better off in the long run.

18

This is a very interesting thread, thanks to all participants. I’m too new to MA to get specific, but my opening approach would be to respect traditional teaching techniques but not to worship them. Teaching has improved a lot over the last 100 years in many areas, even over the last twenty years. The military has new types of drills to hone skills, language teachers have focussed drills for learning to speak (something in between grammar practice and free conversation), doctors are being trained in new ways, musicians have been developing their teaching… you name the area and the method of effective teaching has improved and is showing results. I wouldn’t want to learn Spanish the way they taught it in even the best schools 100 yrs ago. Why shouldn’t new kinds of drills be developed for MA?

I guess what some people might worry about is that there are some subtle sides to the art that get rationalized out because a reformer doesn’t understand them or thinks students are too lazy to master it. This is why I can accept that the idea of lineage can have something to it, even if it is sometimes abused and cheapened. But as soon as a coach shows that he or she is really thinking about how they train the students, and can explain innovations as clearly as some of these posts show, then I feel they’re doing a good thing. That’s the kind of thinking that led to these systems being developed in the first place. Unless you think it just appeared in some monks mind while he meditated. (fat chance).

I guess I’m lucky to be training at a place where I have a lot of confidence in the instructors. I’m also such a beginner that pretty much anything I do is an improvement.:slight_smile:

19

Well this relates back to some of the stuff that Rene quoted concerning grappling - though it applies to WC just as well:
Different lineages will have different basics and different underlying logic and principles. Until the student can understand how their particular lineage’s system is used in fighting application, they can’t turn their basic skill into a fundamental part of their personal style.

Even with that understanding, a student needs to practice in a intelligent way to master the basics so it can be applied in a dynamic situation. If the student only repeats things such as forms or drills without thinking and applying context, it doesn’t matter how many times or how long they do it. A good teacher will be able to guide the student towards making sense of it rather than just making them do a form or a drill.

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1,

The term basic have been brought up many times here.

But, what is Basic?

what is Basic? How deep is the Basic needs to be get into?

2,

while I wholeheartedly agree with you about the importance of the basics, that importance is what leads to the delusion that standing around for 30 minutes a day will lead to martial achievement or skill- something proven patently false by many Wing Chun and taiji players. -----------

Imho,

Perhaps,

it is not a dellusion; and perhaps it just prove mimic things superficially or looking good or have no idea what is for what…

It is a causal world. law of cause and effect always applied. Diferent cause lead to different effect.

a,
cooking sand expecting to become rice
or totally have no idea what one is cooking…

b,
Standing around 30mins a day will yield standing.
Standing and day dream around 30 mins a day will yield day dream..
however, standing investigate/ aligning/ exploring-experimenting the different components of body structure, force field, breathing… 30mins a day accumulate lots of usefull experience.

and,

even punching heavy bag for 30 mins a day might do revse service if one has reach the dimissing of return or saturation point after 15mins.

Just some thoughts