I would like too know who uses ground fighting as part of thier training? A recent seminar sparks this question.
Can you roll if thrown? Do you know how to fall? If you hit the ground, can you get up? Do you feel that ground fighting is even in the Internal at all?
Yes, we practice groundfighting at my school.
My teacher was a wrestler in high-school, and one of his best senior students was a high-school and college wrestler, so we have some people who know what they’re doing on the ground. I think it should be noted that while their previous wrestling experience is partly why they’re so good on ground, they use taiji on the ground now, not pure wrestling.
We practice falling, too. It’s actually called the ‘tiger’s back’, and is different from the judo breakfall method. It’s to explain, but you pracice it against a wall. You sink down, hitting the wall with the middle/upper part of your back as you round it outward (the rounding makes sure you’re not hitting right on the spine), letting out a “HA” or “HOU” sound. This strengthens your back if you are slammed into a wall, and if you are thrown on your back you just do the same but rotate it for the ground. It has other uses too, and also gives your internal organs a bit of a massage/cleansing, but it’s really hard to explain correctly over the net so I’ll just stop here cause you get the point.
Hope that helped a little.
We practice ground hugging footwork in mantis, though I dont consder it internal, it is fighting from a fallen postition. I think that any system should be well rounded and contain every aspect of the whole, if not I consider it only to be a style not a system.
Well…
Since we’ve spent so much time with shuai chaio in the past, I’d say I’m pretty well aquainted with the ground. Met it a time or twice. But most of our groundfighting is either Mantis ground fighting or Da Tang. Da Tang is what the kids play in China and I always considered it internal;)
On a more serious point, our bagua has so much grappling that knowing what to do on the ground comes naturally, but I wouldn’t say there is much ground fighting in bagua. I think the objective is not to be there;)
I have to agree with count that avoiding the ground is the ideal, but what happens when you get there and have zero training? Or when you trip over something and don’t know how to take a fall or roll out of it? Groundwork is ignored a lot, and thats too bad, as there are some handy skills to have.
how is ground hugging footwork different than just a low stance?
Groundfighting.
I have met people that practice the internal arts for years. And most of them can’t even do a basic roll out. How sad."
BaGuaZhang have many Throws and takedowns. A practitioner most know falling techniques. But many don’t know because they never practice falling techniques or groundfighting.
Groundfighting skills are just as important as standing fighting skills. I have seen many internal martial artist get taking to the ground, and when on the ground they didn’t know what to do." I know because I was the person to take them down.
Most internal practitiners don’t even have good root or real fighting skills when fighting standing. So taking them to the ground is easy, to easy."
Maoshan you know what time it is, people love to talk, but when it is time to show they skills, few internal practitioners have any real fighting skills.
I don’t know why you make a thread on groundfighting, because you know many on this internal web page don’t even practice freefighting. What makes you think they even know any thing about groundfighting.
But I can be wrong… Maybe somebody will reply back to your thread and tell you you don’t need to train in ground fighting, all you need to practice is internal forms and your chi will save you my brother…LOL
P.S. I hear you are going to do your BaGuaZhang tournament this year. Is this true? If it is why did you not tell me at my workshop? Any way we need to talk, I have a few ideas in mind, Also I have a lot of students that want to fight in the PaKuaZhang full contact competition. You should know you can’t hide $hit from me…LOL Call me about 1:30am. I should be home then. I’m very happy you are going to do this if what I hear was true…Call me to night.
Peace.
:rolleyes:
Hi All.
A lot of internal Master told when asked if they teach rolling and falling the following:
“No we don’t, because you will not need it” in a rather unfriendly tone of voice.
Now still being a fair newbie to the internal Arts, I cannot proof nor disproof that statement.
Having studied other arts I can roll and fall and am aware of groundfighting skills. But I don’t want to go there unless I REALLY have to.
OTOH, from what I have read and researched in the literature it seems to agree with them, as the practicioner should have such a skill that he can evade/nullify those attacks and punches that might take him down.
The Tai Chi Classics and Treaties talk about this level of Skill a lot. But I don’t know for sure who has got them today.
In short if I get taken down, than my Tai Chi was of insufficient skill and level.
If that is the goal, than it is up to each player to reach it and not a shortcoming of the style/system if they cannot get there.
BTW, similar things are also said about some other non-Chinese internal Arts.
I know I didn’t say “yes, it exist” nor “no, it doesn’t”, just sharing what I have heard and read.
Ground-fighting and “submission” wrestling makes up at least 50% of my training outside of solo-practice. Nothing changes in terms of the 8 Gates…it’s ALL Tai Chi.
In answer to your questions, moashan, yes, when people join our Fast Wrestling program, the first things they learn is ground navigation skills; how to fall, roll/recover, counter-rotate, get back to the feet, sweeps from guard, passing the guard, bridges, reversals, etc.
Lower Basin…
I think Bagua has a lot of ground training built in. The lower basin trains kicking and moving in just about the lowest stance possible. If one is able to fight from this posture I feel they will have a good foundation the be able to handle being are the ground.
Just a thought.
no ground fighting. Well, there is in taiji, but it’s not wrestling on the ground. It’s just some attacks on the ground so you can get back on your feet as quickly as you can. No falling techniques like Judo or Aikido. You can’t use falling techniques on most taiji throws anyway. Anyway, about falling, I know how to fall with my hapkido and aikido background. But it didn’t do real good when Yan Gao Fei came over and threw me on my face a few times. Taiji throws has some devastating throws too it seems. Your arm might be dislocated by the time your face hits the floor.
I made this post because after seeing things that I saw at your workshop it dawned apone me, how do you learn an application with out the counter? In other words, If the particular throw is being taught to you or demonstated on you, how are you not taught not fall? Every Japanese stylist I’ve ever met could fall, roll, ETC…
This is just plain rediculus! Every MA should know how to fall.
and the fact that there are people claiming to have yrs in the arts and they don’t know what to do when the ground is rushing toward them is beyond belief. Most beginners know only the ground in the fundamental stages of fighting. After maximum 2yrs
you should be able to as they say “Roll with the punches”.
Between this and the fact that after some yrs of training, in particular the Internal, they have no power or root.
Come on Man, The fight is over the first time you hit your head on the ground because you don’t know how to fall.
I don’t know all who, but i know that alot of people on this forum
are lying thier a$$e$ off with all the experiance they spout. all the training they do. I know for a fact that the Blacktaoist and myself train this way and a few other people that are on this forum.
How? because only those that train can know.
It’s a knowledge that cannot simply be put into words, only experianced.
for those that are perpatrating their fantasy, your messing with the minds of the beginners that truly want to learn.
Have some compassion.
Not to say that I’m a master, But that is my goal. and from what i’m seeing most are playing at it.
Practice, Train, Research, Experiance
This builds true skill, not talking and imagining things
:mad: Maoshan
Seriously?
Groundfighting skills are just as important as standing fighting skills. I have seen many internal martial artist get taking to the ground, and when on the ground they didn’t know what to do." I know because I was the person to take them down.
This is true even with people I have been training with for years. If they aren’t used to being on the ground the seem to “drown” and panic. But IMO good chin na works on the ground and standing up. Besides, there is no longer that gap to close and elbows, knees and headbutts hurt alot more with the ground behind it. Blacktaoist, do you teach your students something different to fight with on the ground or is it just something in strategy you think has to be adjusted? 
Every Japanese stylist I’ve ever met could fall, roll, ETC…rediculus! Every MA should know how to fall.
The training we do for falling is different the the falling training in Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, etc… With good reasoning too. For that reason I don’t see a need to look at what other “stylists” are doing. It’s not as practical. But I guess if a teacher didn’t learn enough of their system, they might have to supplement their program with some Aikido shoulder rolling or some Judo slapping. It’s simple and effective. Fun too. But to answer your original question maoshan, the rolling in our CMA IS more internal and not only designed to protect the internal organs but even massages and conditions them.
taijiquan_student,
Your method of falling sounds the closest to what I have been taught. What do you do with your arms and hands when you hit the deck that is different from say Aikido? I like the idea of this wall training so could you elaborate on that a bit. Sounds useful! It seems to me that someone with good balance and root can have an easy time stying on their feet, but getting slammed into a wall in a dark bar or an alley or something could be quite a shock. We do some tree training in bagua and baji which helps. But I’m always sore for days after. Got any other tips besides the “HA” or “HOU” sounds.
Peace,
What’s up Count?
And by the way thanks for that e-mail.
I really don’t care what kind of recovery they do. just do it!
A fighter of any kind that doesn’t know what to do in a ground situation is beyond reason to me. Inparticular, the fact that most people don’t know how to fight in the first place and because of that fact, most incounters end up on the ground grappling.
What about the lucky strike anyone can get off. Once off balance you have to know how to recover. I agree, we as internal stylist don’t look at fighting off the ground as the norm, but i’m also a monkey stylist. I’ll take you down in a second once i see your off balance. If you can’t take the fall, roll with the blow, position yourself as you fall instinctivly. you have a problem with an experianced fighter with an over all ablity. I can do circles on the ground. Not that i was taught this it came out of the training. fighting people better than me who took me down and gave me the experiance i needed for real combat.
Ain’t no half steppin.
Maoshan
I think at the highest levels of the internal arts there is no real rolling around on the ground as with Wrestling and Judo etc, but there are some interesting ground fighting techniques as demonstated by Rick Hernandez who studies Kuntao. www.improvisedcombat.com Kuntao I understand has its origins in Bagwa & hsingyi as these arts came to Indonesia and remained undiluted in their fighting spirit and applications.
To be honest all the internal arts teachers I have had do not demonstrate ground fighting as in one sense it is not a great situation to be in as if he has mates they will want to kick your head in.
But I am a firm believer in training in all outcomes, so a lot of my training does involve randori (I think thats how you spell it, in randori you just freestyle fight going with the flow and doing whatever comes natural, conseving energy, if you force it and tense up even if you are fit you will tire in no time, and they will nail your a$$) I train with 3rd Dan Judo guys. The sticking and listening they demonstate while rolling around on the ground with you his excellent, even though you are on the ground actually improves your standing grappling skills as well. I would say ground fighting with well trained grapplers is a must for everone, no matter what their style, internal or external there is so much to learn in it. By this I do not mean endless techniques, but applied free style fighting to subconscious drill and condition your body . Mao & TBT its thanks to lads like yourselves and others on this forum, that do a good job in trying to get the recognition that the internal arts deserve as fighting arts keep up the good work.
Stacy
Ground hugging footwork it totally different than just doing low stances. Low stances are for building endurance, leg strength and powerful rooting. GHF is a fighting application that teaches you how do fight from a fallen position or to come in low on your opponent and work on his foundation and end up in a leg lock or ground trapping lock that allows the mantis practioner room to move arond his opponent while remaining on the attack. It has 240 different techniques although most are variations of one technique or another. We actually have some throws that you fall with your opponent and roll right into a uncounterable lock. These are considered ground fighting and low mantis applications…
Maoshan and blacktaoist: You say that you practice groundfighting at your school; I’m curious about this, as I wasn’t aware that bagua had any specific groundfighting. Could you elaborate on what your training is like?
Also, I’d be curious to know whether the groundfighting you practice (this is for anyone, not just blacktaoist and maoshan) involves primarily defending and try to stand up again, or if you utilize any offense while on the ground.
I’m also curious about the ground hugging stuff earth dragon is talking about. Is this “low mantis” a similar position to the open guard? What do you mean by “fallen position”?
Mr nemo
While the lowmantis is a fighting stragety it should not be confused with wreslting or a guard or mount postion. Low mantis is ground fighting tecniques that allow the practioner an edge when fighting on the ground. 8 step is very effective and ground work is a must for a well rounded system. If you dont have ground skill you are missing a big part of all aspects of fighting. You cannot depend on always standing up when fighting for most fights go to the ground, if you find you have no experience there you will find yourself in akward territory and probably lose.
Ground hugging foot work allows you to come in very low on your opponent and use off balancing and leg locks to bring him down and then apply skills on the ground. Or if you are taken down or slip we use lowmantis to make ourselves dominate on the ground and apply various tecniques to render them helpless, some involve locking and using your body weight to break or fracture the bones and or tear the ligamnets.
We never worry about trying to stand back up from a fallen postition, this takes way to much time we have a lot of arsenal on the ground so we feel just as comfortable on the ground as we do our feet…
Wow,
I didn’t know that Bagua had ground fighting techniques. According to Tim, Xing Yi had some ground grappling, but it was nothing compared to what the Gracies developed.
And yes, we practice Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in addtion to other internal arts.
As far as a strategy is concerned, it depends on what I’m training for and who I’m training with. If the guy is a lot bigger than me, I usually don’t want to spend my time on the ground w/him in my guard. I’ll either try to submit him from the guard, or sweep him and work from the top.
If I’m in some sort of grappling competition, I’ll look for my opponents weakness and exploit it. Por ejemplo, if he sucks at throws, I’ll try to throw him as hard and as often as I can. If his ground techs suck, I’ll work for a submission from any position I can get.
If we throw in striking on the ground, then I’ll try to get to a dominant position, or try to get back to my feet
Re: Mr nemo
You cannot depend on always standing up when fighting for most fights go to the ground, if you find you have no experience there you will find yourself in akward territory and probabl
To me this sounds exactly what the Gracies/UFC/BJJ try to make everybody believe. Which seems to be a new fad in the MA Scene. Because all of a sudden every style NEEDS to have Groundfighting skill ala UFC.
You sure you didn’t copy that from one of their web-Sites??
Which is contrary to what I have encountered and been taught.
Most Fights, IME, don’t last long enough to go to the Ground.
A fight longer than 1~2 minutes is highly unusual.
While Groundfighting skills are needed, I don’t think we need the “wrestling/Jujitsu” style skils.
Also I was taught that Ground fighting is more of a mindset than a Skill set.
Wrestling style groundfighting, Choke-Holds and Submission holds are fine in an environment where it is 1 on 1 with NO possible outside interference.
They should be trained, but not relied on to win a fight.
And when facing possible multiple attackers I want to be as little as possible on the Ground.
And today it is very possible that somebody will step into a fight and try some funny stuff.
Never mind that circumstances and surroundings might prevent a ground fight (narrow Passage, crowded Pub,etc.)
But than that is just my Opinion.