I replied to the ground game thread but thought this thread should be made seperately.
My instructor Rodney King was a standup fighter long before he started grappling,he has real good boxing skills.If you go to Matt Thorntons web site straightblastgym.com you will see Matt says that Rodney has the best hands he has ever seen in the JKD community.
However Rodney went and trained with the Machados (he now has a purple belt in BJJ) and quickly found out how innefective he was on the ground even though he was such a good striker.
If someone with Rodneys striking ability,is blown away with BJJ’s ground techniques and then trains it,what should the average striker be doing?
Rodney will also be bringing out a tape series (specifically striking for NHB and the street) under Matts Straighblastgym video series.You can go to the mixed martial arts forum and look at either the JKD or Africa forum for more info on this.
several things. first, i said war, huuu, good god ya all, what is it good for? absolutely nothin! second, if the average striker intends on being a good mixed ring fighter, then he should train for what he will need. third, if you train in ma, but know that teeth in the throat is more effective than any armbar, and you only fight when it actually matters (life in danger) then you do what you want.
One might ask how you expect to get teeth to the throat when you are being positionally dominated on the ground…
Look…
Here’s grappling in a nutshell:
When attacking, eliminate space by shutting down your opponent’s movement by pressure and/or balance disruption as the situation dictates.
When defending/escaping, create space to move by pressure and/or balance disruption as the situation dictates.
This is what we do. This is what it’s all about.
If I am controlling your body movements in a position of dominance, offensive movements of any kind will be severely limited. You might get lucky with a “trick,” , but why get lucky if you could be good at getting up and leaving in accordance with sound groundwork principles?
Do I advocate guard passing? Not for a fight. But you’d better learn how to break guard and defend open guard so you can disengage, kick available targets and leave. Otherwise, you’re a sitting duck.
I have seen ridiculous posts before about biting to defend the armbar, triangle, knee strikes to the tailbone to handle the guard position, and eye gouges from inferior, non controlling positions. Try those defenses in a fight, and I will wager that 9 times out of 10, you will be finding out what an ineffective defense it is to having your joints broken or passing out.
first off, drop the mentality that a street fight has rules, you may already know this, but limiting someone to not doing what they can’t in teh ring because of rules in f****** stupid. no offense, but a ring fight has rules. one might bring up teh arguement, how are you going to put me in a position if you have lost your eye site of some unfortunate accident happened to your throat. making up scenerios is stupid and pointless unless there are exact rules in a fight.
How are you going to reach my eyes and throat if I have you mounted? Never mind that I’ll break your arm for you if you try.
How are you going to reach my eyes and throat if I am raining knees to your head from side mount or north/south?
Or were you planning on removing my sight while I’m shooting in with an eye strike, and biting my throat on the way down? Never mind that it’s hard enough to hit somebody with a knee, elbow or punch while they are moving like that.
I’m not arguing that the grappling escapes from grappling moves are the only way to go… however, what you are describing is “low percentage,” at best, and at worst, I’ll beat you harder.
Also, as a side note, I don’t have to see to grapple once contact is made.
liek i said, sceneris are gay, what make you think you will get me in a mount. unless we want each others blood, and we decided to make each other bleed, we will not know if you put me in a mount, thus my eye jabs become usless. also, the eye jab and biting thing was supposed to be an example i do not think you have gathered that. it was ment to convey the thought that in a ring, where most people learn (sparring/practice is what is ment by this) there are rules. in an acctual fight, limiting yourself to rules, even if they become that indirecly is gay gay gay. if i am mounted, there are more gays i can handle that, which are not allowed in the ring.
Where I have the issue is this: There is a right way and a wrong way to move on the ground. Wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, Naban, etc… all of these teach you how to move down there. It’s principle based, just like striking… you might call “x” strike something different in two different styles, but generally speaking, the tend to follow the same sorts of principles. Most styles have something akin to a thai roundkick and the thai teep. They might call it something different, have a different philosophy on it, etc, but the execution is likely to be similar.
Good ground principles are good ground principles. Not knowing them and making crap up on the fly can get you injured or killed against somebody who DOES know them.
i respectfully disagree and agree. learning them, yes can and does help. i personally started grappling recently and feel it is as or in some cases more effective than striking. and it might just be me, and in my experience, when fighting a grappler or striker, when i made **** up on teh fly, but stuck to common sense at the same time, and did not abandon my skill/knowledge/calmness, i would win.
one time someone try to bite me when I armbarred him…got ****ed and armbarred him harder till he screamed. I would have broke his arm if it wasn’t for his scream. Afterward, I told him if he ever did that( a newbie who never returned ) while training again I would fight him in the street. I don’t get PAID for teaching…it’s purely volunteer stuff. U take it to the next level so will I.
Legend, do not take my opinion personal. Taking i to teh next level is not ment for sparring as well (unless both agree what that levels limits are and want to do it). In sparring and training, you stick to technique, but in my opinion technique while although is important in a real fight, it is not even close to all. Yet it may be enough, depends on who you are fighting, and if you have the detachment to acts that may kill someone.
And you can still fight with a broken nose… a broken arm… now that’s something else again
But that’s neither here nor there, of course–as you pointed out, it’s a scenario issue.
Legend–exactly my point. Bite me and I’ll just fu(k you up.
Braden–I respect strikers, I just think there is a time and place for certain things. I wouldn’t counter attack while mounted. The amount of damage I would do would be minimal while the gaps I’d leave open for submission, and the amount of damage the OTHER guy could do would be a lot more. I’d work on keeping the damage to a minimum while I got out.
Lastly–if you are using good principles while manuevering, then you aren’t “making crap up.” You’re fighting in accordance with good principles. Just because I try a new way to get to a submission I like, even if I’ve never seen it, isn’t making crap up if I do it with the principles in mind. I mean, let’s say that you notice every time you throw a low kick the hands come down. Well, you’d probably feint a low kick then enter and throw some leather on the face, even if you’ve never observed it before.
However, just trying to bite the guy out of desperation, or elbowing the top of somebody’s skull or turning to your stomach and trying to play with some guy’s foot… that’s pretty useless, unless the other guy is equally clueless.
You’re asking the wrong guy. I don’t bait people with submissions. The only thing I ever bait people with is space (Ah, I feel less pressure here, I’ll go that w… hey, how the hell did I wind up on my back?!)
Or attempt to maintain you position