Respectmankind…u took it the wrong way…I feel that eye gouges, tears and biting are not FINISHING moves…the problem with CMA guys is that to counter a FINISHING( ex: armbar ) attempt by a foe they would say I would “gouge, tear or bite”…u cannot do this. BITING will give u spacing…but it does not release holds that are locked! In fact biting, gouging and tearing motions I feel are low percentage unless u have them immobilize or have u’re friends help immobilize the foe. Where he cannot retailiate effectively. In fact…especially the foes out there should have a low tolerance level of pain but high on liquid courage.
Actually braden, that’s pretty close to correct. There’s a lot of escaping from bad places done by using the elbow to create an initial wedge followed up by pressure with the hands once the opponent is too offbalance to create risk of submission or improving position.
What Legend said, by the way.
And as far as Aliens and the Predator go:
I predict Rickson by armbar, 2:38.
Eh, don’t get too down on the place.
And that’s Rickson in 2:38, minute wise, not hourwise. 
Why does this always degenerate into ground vs stand-up? (having just read my post I see the irony of this statement but I’ll leave it in for humour’s sake)
I don’t train for the ground - in the scenarios I’ve been in and train for:
- I’ve never been taken to the floor
- I either walked away without violence or
- I won a violent confrontation and walked away or
- I got knocked decked and stamped on and they walked away
The confrontations have all involved a mix of grappling and striking - I resent the implication that all grappling is ground-based.
I also know from bitter experience that you don’t put something like an armbar on and try and subdue someone - that isn’t real world and if you think you can do that then you’re going to end up very hurt sometime. Locks are what I train - if I have to use it ‘live’ then it goes straight to breaking/dislocation/choking.
I’ve been kicked square in the nuts in a fight and I didn’t feel it - fact is only serious debilitating injury will stop someone who is fighting - i.e. knock-out/choke-out/disabling moves. Scratching someone’s face looks bad afterwards but has no effect at the time. You won’t hit someone’s eyes in a hundred attempts in a fight - you’re more likely to have your fingers bitten off. Good grappling and striking are the safest combination in a confrontation - if both are not trained then you are severely limiting your chances.
However - I don’t believe that argument extends to ground work. If I fight someone who is a trained ground fighter then I can’t afford to go to ground anyway - my training will never be as solid as theirs. My main danger is someone shooting in on me as I don’t train to deal with that (I don’t view it as a likely scenario) - but as someone said on another thread it’s more likely to go to a clinch. The clinch is where the bulk of my training works so I’m not concerned at that range - and I’m better there than on the floor.
Something I’d like to ask Merry and co - do you train to deal with the ‘unsporting’ methods in the clinch? Obviously on the floor it is easier to immobilise someone and avoid the range of weapons - but if you’re in a clinch against someone who isn’t easily going to be taken down are you confident you can cope against the full range of no-rules strikes? (headbutts/elbows to throat /tearing/rending type strikes/knee/groin kicks/bites to nose)
I think there’s a lot of misplaced complacency in the MA - there are grapplers that believe that they can stop any determined attacker with submission and there are strikers that believe that a skilled grappler couldn’t possibly submit them. All I believe is that in a fight I’m going to whatever is necessary to get out with as little injury as possible. And I know that everything I tell myself I’ll do in a fight goes out of the window once the adrenalin hits.
I expect one day I’ll end up on the floor and wish I’d done some work on it - but I’ll hold onto my misconceptions in the meantime.
Thanks to anyone who bothered to read my essay
I wouldn’t call it ground vs stand-up. It’s more of a battle between training styles. Some people like to train in a full-contact environment and use all the tools that are safely available to them there. Some people like to practice in a more static manner which they use tools that couldn’t be used in a full contact environment for the safety of the combatants.
One faction says, “how do you know your techniques will work if you don’t train with them going full blast with an uncooperative opponent” or “how can eye jab me when you can’t even hit me with a solid punch” or even “how are you going to tear or bite, when you are being dominated positionally”
The other faction says, “how can you fight if you can’t breathe, see, etc” or “you’re style of fighting has rules and the absense of rules will change the situation in my favor”
Which is better? I doubt that will ever be 100% agreed upon or even 75% for that matter. Just do what you like and you feel comfortable doing. You’re not going to convince anyone over the internet. Like the old saying goes:
Winning an argument on the internet is like winning a medal in the special olympics… you’re still retarded.
I know it’s not very PC, but it’s funny and true!
My first fight with a BJJ blue belt (real fight not game) he tried repeatedly to take me down until I knocked him out by grabbing his head and putting my knee in his mouth. Funny thing was he was a good 50lbs heavier and 6 inches taller. Another one against a wrestler in highschool and I let him get me in a front bear hug and he put his chin in my chest and tried to bend me over backwards, I busted his eardrum for him with a nice cupped hand to the ear. Since then I’ve done submission wrestling and BJJ and other than playing in the kwoon I’ve never found it of any use. Grappling is good fun and awesome for the ring but a pretty sorry self defense system.
do you train to deal with the ‘unsporting’ methods in the clinch?
Yes I do.
And I’ve also bitten people in real fights as well. I bit a piece of some kid’s pectoral off in a fight before I really knew how to grapple. He was a wrestler, and he took me down, and he was trying to beat me up. I held him, and bit off a piece of his skin. He got up and we got back to our feet. Then the fight was stopped. However…he probably could have taken me down again, and this time he was ****ed. So biting does work…but like legend said, not as a finishing move. It gives you space. Also you guys will probably have to worry about someone taking you down and pounding you, not submitting you. If you haven’t sparred full contact with someone punching down at you from mount, you can’t know how it feels to try and escape something like that…
The argument is old, but it boils down to this. If I don’t train real punching skills and I get into a fight with a good puncher, and try to defend his punches with my untrained punching skills I will get knocked out. That’s just what happens. If you don’t train real grappling skills and get into a fight with a good grappler, and try to defend his grappling with your untrained grappling skills (i.e. trying to punch when he grabs you, etc) You’ll get taken down and NOT armlocked, but pounded or choked to death.
There’s no shame in addressing grappling. My training partner has gone gung ho on MMA and vale tudo sparring/training. Because he sees that it’s realistic, and something he hadn’t trained for with just his stand up. He doesn’t pontificate what he’d do, he gets in there with me and we find out through fighting.
Ryu
Ford–to the “absence of rules,” argument, I offer only this: For the person who is SERIOUS about this, there are documented (taped) vale tudo fights in Brazil and probably Russia, that restrict eyegouging, biting and finger breaking. None of that secret underground fights in Hong Kong stuff. The rest is fair game, including groin shots (although, I’m sure the smart competitors wear cups…) and I’m wholly aware that the ring is still not the street, but that’s pretty close without the risk of legal problems.
As to winning an argument on the internet–you’re absolutely right about that.
but if you’re in a clinch against someone who isn’t easily going to be taken down are you confident you can cope against the full range of no-rules strikes? (headbutts/elbows to throat /tearing/rending type strikes/knee/groin kicks/bites to nose)
I am confident, in the clinch of my abilities to appropriately shut down space for these attacks. I have clinched with several muay thai fighters trying to knee and elbow me to head, body, inside thigh and have done fine (ie, they got some, I got some). I’ve trained with some kenpo guys who tried to rake my eyes, and given that grapplers train to bury their faces anyway (people always wanna push on it), that was fairly easy to negate.
I admit to not having had to deal with anybody trying to bite my nose.
As far as weapons, this is a glaring hole in my training.
Do we have to go over and over and over and over this again and again?
There is a lot of striker this, striker that
Grappler this, grappler that
Crosstrain blah blah blah
Here is the thing:
KUNG FU IS NOT STRIKING.
The whole “I MUST CROSSTRAIN IN GROUND FIGHTING” thing is some paranioa. Like OH MY GOD! WHAT IF… HE TAKES ME DOWN!
You are afraid of being taken to the ground
You are afraid you wont be able to fight there
So you crosstrain
First:
Get yourself some balls for gods sake
Second:
Knifes are cheaper than training, if you are so worried about yourself use a knife. Much easier to learn than grappling and much more street effective.
Or a .38 or a .45
Whatever, use your third arm.
Third:
Do you really really think you are safe (or safer) when you crosstrain in like 3 styles, striking grappling and stuff??
How about my two friends hold you and i stab you with scissors?
“Grappling is good fun and awesome for the ring but a pretty sorry self defense system”
That’s interesting because that’s the exact conclusion I came to about all the striking and kung fu guys I’ve fought.
:rolleyes:
Ryu
Then Xebs, why train at all.
And no it’s not striking.
It’s stand-up… and then there’s the ground.
That’s interesting because that’s the exact conclusion I came to about all the striking and kung fu guys I’ve fought.
yeah, I’m sure. Have you been in many real fights? I ask because I was a thug and a fighter before martial arts and I’d go so far as to say most MA’s can’t really fight but most of the grapplers I train with have an even more unrealistic view of fighting than the kung fu and karate guys I know.
Kuen–
What you say doesn’t actually surprise me that much. I know guys that STILL think BJJ is the ultimate in self-defense, and that, just because they do it, that they would be able to handle themselves whenever, wherever… I’m sure some of it is “bandwagon hype,” stuff. ESPECIALLY when BJJ takedowns are just so god-awful…and trained so infrequently.
Oh–a second thought, not directed at you Kuen, I personally don’t think grappling means “ground work,” as an ex-wrestler, I certainly think it encompasses much more, and to be a complete grappler requires knowledge of stand-up grappling and groundgrappling.
for what it’s worth - I don’t know many people who train to deal with a complete animal attacking them. I certainly don’t - but I’ve had to deal with one before, and I’ve got scars to show for it (missing pinkie for one).
I don’t think any amount of training could have helped me because I was mentally unprepared for that kind of assault - attackers aren’t meant to resort to biting and convulsing and screaming and generally scaring the crap out of me. Thankfully I got through it and it taught me a valuable lesson - decide what I’m going to do as soon as a situation develops and decide on a trigger and then act to end the situation ASAP.
I’m sure the percentage of blinkered grapplers is exactly the same as in any other MA - until you’ve been in a situation that had your arse playing a tune you can’t comprehend why you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. I still fall into the trap of complacency, believing that my superior technique and ability make me invincible - but I just remind myself of various encounters and incidents and I fall back to earth.
I don’t have an agenda, I’m firmly of the belief that grappling and striking are entwined. To me ground work is another arena entirely that encompasses grappling and striking - I don’t train for the ground because I don’t believe it likely to happen given my experiences and training. If I had the time then I’d like to train it for the added insurance but it’s all about balance and priority.
One day it might well happen - but equally someone might pull a knife or a bat on me. I can’t train for every eventuality and I train for more than self-defence. I find that training solely for defence leads you into a motivational dead-end - “what’s the point, it might not work or this might happen or I might get jumped” etc
I do go on at times 
Well, Kaitan, there are situations that training just can’t duplicate very well. You got in one of them. That’s the way it goes, because fights are a mess.
I’m glad you got through it though. Sorry about the pinkie. He sounds like he was either crazy or on something or both.
I’m tempted to think of fights such as “That Kung Fu dude” VS John Marsh where eye gouges were allowed and basicly everything.
Also the SAFTA master Jon Hess VS Vitor Belfort in a “No rules” fight (since Jon told everyone they had too many rules and he could beat them with no rules). Vitor beat the guy soooo senseless. Now i admit Jon Hess is a skillless fool, but still he used the same arguement and got his ass handed too him
He was a builder - he’d ripped off my elderly neighbour and she asked me to get him to leave her property when he came round asking for more money. Big bad-ass Muay Thai Kaitain went and told him to leave - I got him outside peacefully enough and then he went for me (after I’d relaxed - spot the experienced fighter out of the two of us) - in complete shock I tried to push him off by putting my hand on his chin (he was headbutting me) - it was at this point I think he bit my finger (he gloved it - the bone was intact to the second knuckle but the flesh was gone to the first). I don’t know how long the fight lasted but eventually some police arrived and pulled him off me - it took twelve officers to get him into the van. It was about then I saw a flash of white out of the corner of my eye and realised what he’d done.
I declined to press charges on the basis he knew where I lived and he knew a lot of ‘people’. It wasn’t worth it and I was scared.
I heard he was recently imprisoned after strangling someone outside a pub after the victim asked his wife for a cigarette. Consequently when I had all that trouble last year when my wife was assaulted I was determined to see it through.
It’s the pinky on my left hand so it doesn’t affect me too much - was quite funny trying to program for the first few months since Ikept thinking I’d hit the left shift key but hadn’t.
What you say doesn’t actually surprise me that much. I know guys that STILL think BJJ is the ultimate in self-defense, and that, just because they do it, that they would be able to handle themselves whenever, wherever… I’m sure some of it is “bandwagon hype,” stuff. ESPECIALLY when BJJ takedowns are just so god-awful…and trained so infrequently.
Rock on! Also, you are correct I should say groundfighting not grappling as I am quite partial to upright grappling. I’ve been practicing throws from the clinch, etc. and I love the fact that all one needs to do is hold the arm in a certain way and snap. Too bad I haven’t been able to try it for real yet though.
See now, I still don’t understand why someone who trains a striking style would train a groundfighting style. What is the point in training in someone else’s game, instead of perfecting your own? That makes absolutely no sense.
Training to understand what someone who studies groundfighting does, and how YOUR STYLE would counter their attacks, that makes sense. There are only so many different ways someone can try to bring you down, only so many principles that can be applied.
Training specifically to avoid being taken down (thereby playing the other guy’s game, to your disadvantage), that makes sense. Training to get the freak up off the ground as fast as possible, that makes sense. Training how to avoid having a lock placed on you, that makes sense.
But training to win at someone else’s game? No sense. If you want to win at someone else’s game, you must make it your game first. You don’t need to be a champion grappler if you train specifically not to go to the grappling space to begin with.
Make the turkey play YOUR game 
Yep, unfortunately I’ve been in quite a few real fights. If you don’t know what to do on the ground, you’re in trouble. Doesn’t mean you have to be the best groundfighter to beat a groundfighter, but you do have to know their game.
The same way grapplers have to know a strikers game.
And Merry, yes I agree that BJJ has terrible takedowns Though I used to train with a BJJ blue who had wrestled in college for years, went on scholarships, etc. THAT was interesting!
Ryu