Ground fighting from a kf viewpoint

dre-

It’s interesting you should say what you say about BJJer’s. I think that’s very interesting considering how many people have come to this forum that are convinced that their style has all the answers to every situation, that are convinced that there is no reason to learn any groundfighting even just for the purpose of getting back up, and that are convinced that “technique x,” will suffice to knock out an incoming shot.

If anything, I’d say that most of the “TMAist’s” I’ve met have been far more vocal about how great they or their style or sifu are than any BJJer…and with far less evidence to back up their mouths.

That said–I’ve met some pretty arrogant BJJer’s too :slight_smile:

I have too.
And I got a little bothered by it as well. But really Dre, they are not all that way. If the instructor in your area is …well I’m sorry about that. What rank is he? Who’s his school affiliated with?

I think working with the wrestler is a great idea. They are awesome people to grapple with! But you do need to be wary of submissions. :slight_smile:
If you get a chance to work with some BJJers please do. Find some that are more humble. All of us have been choked out, armlocked, etc. I don’t know why BJJers should be arrogant. They should be the least arrogant… but unfortunately that’s the way some people are.

Take care,
Ryu

Originally posted by Archangel
You can see how those “deadly techniques” do against Vitor’s sportive techniques.

There are few arrogant grapplers? :rolleyes: Ok, If you say so.

Ed,

Thanks for your prompt email reply.

whats with ryu and merry rappn when they respond to dre

all about way and say?.
Hey, dre why not just bust a cap, show them dre don’t play"

LMFAO @ “It seems to lower youre IQ”

Dude, have you ever hung around on the Under/Otherground?

You’d love it there, so humble, and respectful of other arts. :rolleyes: As long as its not traditional.

All their ‘discussions’ come back to Dim Mak, LOL.

OK just for a laugh I found a thread on the underground called “I’m going to fight a Kung Fu guy!”

Here’s the top four quotes:

1/Be careful of his chi. I may damage your soft organs

2/I don’t want to hurt him, I just want to prove to him that his style is not practicle

3/you dont want this guy to flip out once he starts getting beat and bit you or poke you in the eye or some **** that might do serious damage.

And my personal favourite

4/guard against the dreaded DIM MAK

Any disrespect from a Kung Fu guy towards BJJ players is, IMHO, completely reaonable and fully deserved on the basis of the above comments.

:smiley:

I’m just mucking about, btw. But I don’t think the above were :frowning:

I don’t harbour any disrespect towards BJJers, arseholes are everywhere, BJJ gets the same treatment on some trad boards I’m sure.

scotty–

by way of response, I refer you to apeters thread w/regards to Kung Fu advantage over groundfighters. As long as that kind of stuff is taught as being “realistic self-defense,” with no real proof conducted under as close to double blind conditions as you can create, they (universal they–I realize not everybody practices this way) are going to continue to get crap.

His sifu should be disabusing him of his notions…not spouting it!

But, there are plenty of people with attitudes BJJ and otherwise… that’s just the way it goes.

I won’t get into how entertaining a BJJ tournament is, just from a people watching perspective.

I hear what you’re saying MP.

I only posted those things for a laugh, and to demonstrate that there is a lot of ignorance on both sides of the fence.

But it does **** me off when I go to MMA.TV forums and they are always ****ing on Kung Fu and trad. arts in general.

At least BJJ gets respect on this forum.

My good friend and training partner does have a black sash in Kung Fu I think. Even though he’s more a MMA now, I always respected his stand up skills when we sparred. We were sparring full contact once, and I came in for a clinch. He was wise to it because he had been defending them so long, got out of the way, and got ready to launch an attack. :smiley: I moved out of the way before he could get me, but the guy has strong legs, and if he had kicked me in the head after defending the takedown it might have been goodnight. :wink: Its happened in NHB all the time. Kung Fu has very real skills. If you train how to grapple properly you have more opportunities to use those skills against them. Just my opinion. But I stand by the claim that if you have no experience groundfighting and face off against a grappler you won’t have the necessary skills to defend or win.

Ryu

Yes and No.

It’s a very grudging acceptance. A good deal of that is in response to the continual verbal pounding that many BJJ advocates administer, a lot of that is “self-induced.”

But more deeply, it is the difference in training and the outlook of the participants.

By training, I mean that BJJ follows the Judo concept of randori–active training with “less dangerous,” techniques yields superior application of those techniques, when compared to simulating dangerous ones. In other words, we have more faith in a boxer’s punch than a karateka’s eye strike–it’s hard to practice an eye strike without losing training partners :). Kano had great success fighting traditional ryu’s with this philosophy, so it has merit. Is it the end all be all… a different argument. But it certainly has merit. It’s an issue of time management–there are only so many hours in a day, and it’s more productive to try and beat the crap out of each other with “safe” techniques (throws), in a “safe” environment (mats) than it is to “almost but not quite,” execute a throat shot.

Now, I realize that plenty of Kung Fu men beat on each other regularly, but you get good at what you train in–and when you are beating on each other sans the “dangerous,” things, you tend not to get good at the “dangerous” things. Case in point–find a BJJer who is very good at heel hooks (considered too dangerous in BJJ) and I’ll show you somebody who has crosstrained in Sambo (heel hooks are a staple in Sambo). The “of course, in a real fight, I’d change this to ‘x’” holds little water with those who believe in this principle.

However, this sportive style training puts BJJ on the “fringe,” of being a “martial art,” in the eyes of many traditional practicioners (it’s a SPORT, not an MA.) That same argument gets applied to boxing, judo, wrestling, kickboxing, MT, MMA, etc. So the respect is again grudging “Ok, yeah, it’s got some good stuff, but it’s a SPORT.” The problem is that the dichotomy is just now starting to be dealt with–nobody took combat sports seriously before and now, it’s clear that the things you learn and do in those sports have real martial value. It’s hard to let go of the “it’s just a sport,” mentality for many people. Geez, I remember in an almost fight I had in high school, where my antagonist said “what are you gonna do, pin me to death?” Ironically, that’s exactly what I’d do–and would have done 10 years ago–but nobody took wrestling (or boxing) seriously. Judo has suffered some of the same “sideways glance,” due to it’s status as an olympic sport… and think of how many people on here believe that olympic TKD is going to ruin it? The current rules are full contact, when it comes to kicks, and frankly, I believe that it will get VERY good at what it does and the overall dangerousness of its practicioners will get far better than it is now–because they will learn to kick, kick well, and kick with ko power. They will learn to do it against somebody who is trying to knock their own block off, etc. Sure, they’ll have some holes in their game, but they’ll be dangerous! Even San Shou gets crap about “not being KF,” because it’s a sport and they limit too much, etc…ironically, the guys on the underground think good San Shou artists are bad mofos.

Finally, you come to BJJ’s western origins (I know it came from Japan, ultimately, but it’s a different entity now). Take the flack that American Kenpo frequently gets from “traditional,” arts, multiply it by about 100 for it’s sportive environment—catch my drift?

The second is outlook–There isn’t a BJJer that I’ve met who takes BJJ for self-improvement. I know that not everybody in TMA takes it for those sorts of reasons, but there is almost an utter absence of that in BJJ. I don’t worry about behaving in a certain way in class (beyond obviously paying attention and not disrupting class), learning ancient traditions and values, or any of that. I don’t have to hear about philosophy or any of that. BJJ, is, in and of itself, valueless in that it doesn’t have a particular set of values attached to it. You as a person is you as a person, and BJJ doesn’t seek to improve that some how.

For a lot of traditional practicioners, that’s kind of repugnant.

Two quotes to just point out:

“… San Shou gets crap about “not being KF,” because it’s a sport and they limit too much, etc…ironically, the guys on the underground think good San Shou artists are bad mofos.”

“There isn’t a BJJer that I’ve met who takes BJJ for [character] self-improvement.”

Its amazing how much difference ‘how you train’ makes rather then ‘what you train’.

Good post MP.

And I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Maybe the traditionalists on this board are more enlightened than many, but I definitely see more healthy respect for BJJ on this board than for Kung Fu on the Underground. Maybe that’s because we’re not all traditionalists?

But anyway, thats not what the thread is about, sorry…

I’m going home. I’ll try to be a bit more cheerful tomorrow. :slight_smile:

yenhoi–

Preaching to the choir, man. :slight_smile:

Cool post guys. And great insight and info Prankster.

I checked out that “i’m gonna fight a kung fu guy” post on the underground forum (which i joined a few weeks ago, but don’t frequent or post yet)…and the funny thing is that grappleboy’s post (the loser who started that thread) deconstructs over the course of the thread. He has no respect for his kung fu friend’s training or art, based on misinformed and misguided stereotypes. His skills as well as his intentions were questioned by others on the forum, which was good and may have prompted him to actually think about what he was saying and planning to do. After he starts out ****y, he is reduced to a whimpering fool after he is called out by more experienced and skillful grapplers, and his self esteem reduced to pathetic smoldering rubble. It was amusing.

Maybe the GracieCD-ROM™ needs to be updated with a section on respecting other people… :wink:

Having some moralistic and philosophical values ingrained into a fighting system is not necessarily a bad thing. Of course there will always be bad apples in any MA system, but i think that respect and controlling temper and emotions should be integrated into the training, as it is relevant in martial issues, as well as social issues. While many people may already possess these values, it is apparent that many do not. I think that if a student is taught potentially dangerous and harmful techniques, they should also be taught the context of when and how its appropriate to use the skills, so as not to harm themselves, their training partners, or others.

Talking smack about other styles can be fun and harmless if no serious malice is intended, this happens in many competitive sports. But when it crosses over into blatant disregard and disrespect for others, and threatens innocent peoples’ safety, that is obviously not right.

Admittedly, Tradionalists who spout the dogma of their perfect undefeatable style like a born-again bible-thumper are just as obnoxious as the worst BJJ-Is-Invincable knuckle-dragger, or MMA-rules-&-everything-else-sucks wanker…They just don’t realize it yet.

gang tats

Originally posted by GinSueDog
[B]Dre,
Sorry to hear you had some bad experiences with a few BJJ players. I know that I can come off pretty self rightous and arrogrant at times, online at least. At the same time you shouldn’t sell yourself short, the fact is BJJ is the best grappling art out there bar-none.Don’t let your pride get in the way.-ED

P.S.-Good luck with your training. I hope you find a grappling system that can help you. [/B]

A couple of my students entered the Machado Grappling games last year and did OK. The Instructors were great but for many of the students I have never seen so many gang tats in one place and the unsportsman like conduct on and off the mat. And the best part was a fight breaking out at the end of the tournament. And as Torrance is BJJ Mecca, so I think it reflects the tone of many of the students.

"It’s interesting you should say what you say about BJJer’s. I think that’s very interesting considering how many people have come to this forum that are convinced that their style has all the answers to every situation, that are convinced that there is no reason to learn any groundfighting even just for the purpose of getting back up, and that are convinced that “technique x,” will suffice to knock out an incoming shot. "

This was my point ealier. As fighters you want to be as rounded as possable. Believing your art has all the answers is closed minded and your limiting yourself to your full potential.

You may find after a few years of experience your best fighting comes from throws or striking or trapping or any other option.

Musashi said you should not master one weapon but know many. The same goes for fighting. Dont limit yourself, and dont assume that there is an easy answer to every situation. What works for one fightr may not work for the next.

“and that are convinced that ‘technique x,’ will suffice to knock out an incoming shot”

can be paraphrased

“and that are convinced that ‘one of their techniques’ will suffice to counter one of our techniques”

Just throwing it out there for amusement value.

diego - Dre don’t play.

Scott - “I don’t harbour any disrespect towards BJJers, arseholes are everywhere, BJJ gets the same treatment on some trad boards I’m sure.”

But notice that this is KUNG FU online, and there are Many BJJ’ers here (and BJJ trolls like Realek).

MW - Amen.

Scott (again) -“Maybe the traditionalists on this board are more enlightened than many, but I definitely see more healthy respect for BJJ on this board than for Kung Fu on the Underground. Maybe that’s because we’re not all traditionalists?”

No, it’s becuase in the big scheme or MA, I think we’re losing out, you’re dying, they’re gonna thrive. We will continue to decline, and they will grow. They are the “victorious” in the court of public opinon ,so they can say whatever they want. We’re the losers , so we have to meekly accept what scraps are thrown to us. Ether we changes or we die. Or we make a serious challenge to BJJ.

Don’t forget the BJJ practitioner is Human. And he can be KO’ed.

“by way of response, I refer you to apeters thread w/regards to Kung Fu advantage over groundfighters”

It’s worth noting apeters is clearly someone from MMA.tv trolling here.

“It’s a very grudging acceptance. A good deal of that is in response to the continual verbal pounding that many BJJ advocates administer, a lot of that is ‘self-induced.’”

Don’t know what forums you’ve been reading. I’d say a good deal of it is in spite of the ‘verbal pounding.’ And I don’t see how it’s grudging. I can think of a half dozen kungfu posters here who have started taken BJJ, and a dozen others who train with BJJ players.

“The problem is that the dichotomy is just now starting to be dealt with–nobody took combat sports seriously before and now”

A common misconception. Someone (Blackjack?) posted a quote from the early 1800s where someone had written about the bad blood between sportive and ‘tradition’ martial artists, and if you disregarded the language, it was exactly what people go on about now. There are quotes from hundreds of years earlier from China, where ‘traditional martial artists’ talk about how the [sportive] wrestlers are the ones you’ve got to look out for and train to beat. There’s absolutely nothing new about what’s going on here.

“That same argument gets applied to boxing, judo, wrestling, kickboxing, MT, MMA, etc.”

Really? You mean boxing the sweet science? Judo which fifty years ago everyone was training in, and which was a mainstay of Draeger’s? Wrestling - re: quote from china; the japanese uses okinawan wrestling to form their martial arts; etc etc etc. Muay thai which long before the MMA scene was a favorite of martial artists everywhere who idolized and feared the harsh training? I’ve got to say, if you honestly think these arts have been hated and are only not getting grudging acceptance, you’re reading from a much, much different script than the one I was handed.

“Even San Shou gets crap about ‘not being KF,’ because it’s a sport and they limit too much.”

You’re confused. Sanshou is a term used to describe a training drill that has been present for thousands of years in every traditional chinese style. Recently, the term has also been used to describe a martial sportive venue. It is quite plain that neither of these things is a style of kungfu; this is what philosophers call a category mistake.

“There isn’t a BJJer that I’ve met who takes BJJ for self-improvement.”

Wierd, the last time this came up, everyone was arguing BJJ was great for self-improvement and going on about how humble all the BJJ bignames were, compared to traditionalists.

Shinbushi, I hate to say it, but just about all every big amateur tournament that I’ve been to in the last 5 years has been like that. Gang signs, profanity on their uniforms, students screaming they were going to kill someone. I can’t, in good concience, ask the kids at our school to go to these tournaments. It’s nice for the youngsters to compete in point sparring matches and forms competition. But they are around such a bad element from the “young adults” there that I would rather they stay home.

JWT