Ground fighting from a kf viewpoint

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
61

JWT, makes you wish MA did try harder to improve character, huh?
It’s sad to hear that.

"No, it’s becuase in the big scheme or MA, I think we’re losing out, you’re dying, they’re gonna thrive. We will continue to decline, and they will grow. They are the “victorious” in the court of public opinon ,so they can say whatever they want. We’re the losers , so we have to meekly accept what scraps are thrown to us. Ether we changes or we die. Or we make a serious challenge to BJJ.

Don’t forget the BJJ practitioner is Human. And he can be KO’ed."

Dre, in all humility, we’re not in a war here. Things evolve and change. In order to survive you have to be able to flow and adapt and know when to take a stand if you have to. But refusal to adapt with time is contrary to what kung fu teaches.
I started martial arts when I was 5, do you think I knew about BJJ back then? No, I trained hard and had to learn the hard way about it. Now it’s a large part of my arsenal. I had to swallow the humble pill just like a lot of people. BJJ had to swallow that same pill when crosstraining became all the range (something that wins when others said it couldn’t possibly).
I’m not saying to never stand up for what you believe is right. But know how to evolve and adapt with change. You’ll be more prepared to logically deal with it.

Ryu

62

“And as Torrance is BJJ Mecca, so I think it reflects the tone of many of the students.”

Shinbushi,
Man that sucks to hear about what that tournament was like. In my personal experience though, I went to about four different grappling tournaments (2 in Vegas, 2 in Cali) and I never saw so much respect and appreciation for each other by the competitors. It was a huge difference from when I used to go to “open karate” tournaments (I haven’t been to one recently, so I don’t know what they’re like now). The judging seemed very fair, and even when there were bad calls the competitors accepted them (not always happily of course :slight_smile: , but better than I usually saw at a point sparring match).

I didn’t really see any gang tats, but then again I don’t know what to look for :stuck_out_tongue: . The two tournaments in Vegas were big and had competitors from all over the country competing, so I don’t think it’s very fair to assume that what you saw in Torrance is a reflection of how “many of the students” that studdy BJJ are like.

Don’t get me wrong though. I’m not saying their better people than other people, I’m just saying they’re like everyone else. You know how it is with that bad apple in the bunch and what not :slight_smile: .

“But notice that this is KUNG FU online, and there are Many BJJ’ers here…”

I thought kung fu meant skill acquired through hard work (or something like that), not “Chinese” skill acquired through hard work :stuck_out_tongue: .

63

Ryu - “Things evolve and change. In order to survive you have to be able to flow and adapt and know when to take a stand if you have to”

I agree. Thats what the paragraph was about. I think my grammar wasn’t right when I said " Ether we [make] changes or we die [sic]" lol.

In reality, KF can not really afford to loose more people to BJJ (or anyhtong really) they have few enough to begin with. There should be a renewal within the system. It is a war, a war for publicity, students , attention and “a place in the sun”.

It dosen’t look Sunny here :

Think about it. How many people know Eagle Claw? And how many know TKD or BJJ? We’re definatly losing out somehow.

Another problem is Contempo Wushu and it’s own *******ization of the system. . .

I should also say that KF is NOT my first MA , I am much better in European Fencing and it’s various weapons , that , too , is a dying one. I seem to be very good at picking the more unusual Martial arts. . .

Tigerstyle : It dosen’t really surprise me how the BJJ’ers act when they get tougether. What other way would they act if they’re so full of Gangs like others claim?

64

Originally posted by Ryu
[B]I have too.
And I got a little bothered by it as well. But really Dre, they are not all that way. If the instructor in your area is …well I’m sorry about that. What rank is he? Who’s his school affiliated with?

I think working with the wrestler is a great idea. They are awesome people to grapple with! But you do need to be wary of submissions. :slight_smile:
If you get a chance to work with some BJJers please do. Find some that are more humble. All of us have been choked out, armlocked, etc. I don’t know why BJJers should be arrogant. They should be the least arrogant… but unfortunately that’s the way some people are.

Take care,
Ryu [/B]

Forgot to answer this , so I’ll go ahead. The instructor is a Purple belt (thats the BJJ equivalent of an instructor, no?). He runs and owns the NYMAG (New York Martial Arts Gym) in my area. I Don’t know who teaches him or where he’s from though.

Nope, even if you twist my arm , I still won’t do BJJ :slight_smile:

And for fun heres some nice quotes that all you TMS people will fall in love with :

http://www.fighttraining.com/forum/messages/12/810.html?1018927916

“I dunno, but if a kung fu guy can’t beat one skinny jiu-jitsu guy, I don’t know what makes him think he’ll do any better on the street against a bunch of big guys.” - The instuctor in my area talkng about Royce- Delucia match. (from his forum)

65

Braden–

Will you ever tire of finding threads I’ve posted on just to disagree with me? :slight_smile: I mean that with the utmost respect of course.

OK–let’s work with contemporary America here.

In the 50’s and 60’s it was a lot of Judo. EVERYBODY did Judo–even if it was something else :slight_smile:

Then comes the era of Kung Fu and some Karate films, then Ninjas in the 80’s and the 90’s and turn of the century, you’ve got MMA as all the rage.

How many people even knew what Muay Thai was in the 80’s? I bet Kickboxer was proabably many people’s (unfortunate) first exposure to the style. I know that I’d never had it lodge firmly in my mind until the first UFC I watched (I think I was 19, and I commented, before the bout–"hey, I think this has a bunch of knees and elbows?)

I think you’re approaching it from the standpoint of somebody who’s been doing this kind of stuff for awhile, and has been exposed to a lot of different things.

How many CMA’ers, JMA’ers, KMA’ers, etc believed they had a serious advantage over a wrestler? Or a boxer? Or a kickboxer? I’m willing to bet the number was relatively high by comparison to the total number of practicioners. How many times on this forum have you heard “kickboxing,” used derisively? I can think of many. Then, and I really believe this, the UFC and similar events challenged the assumptions. All of a sudden there were some very real questions that had to be answered–now, open minded, well trained people like yourself already KNEW those questions existed, and had trained to answer them–but a GREAT many people, had not.

And, I’m NOT confused about San Shou. I know exactly that it is a format for competition, not a style in and of itself, technically. And enough people on THIS forum have commented about it not “really being Kung Fu,” due to restrictive rules, training required for success in the ring, deriding it as “kickboxing with throws,” etc, to make that stick in my mind.

And when I say the acceptance is grudging—I offer up dre as an example. For as many people that have embraced it here, there are just as many who want either nothing to do with it, feel it’s just a sport and doesn’t really have anything to do with self-defense, or that “Their style has the answer to that…they just have to be dedicated.”

So when you say the script you are reading from is different than mine, I’d say it probably is. I’d say the script you are reading from is that of a well informed, open minded, well trained practitioner, where as the one I am reading from is that of the more average practicioner or interested person. After all, I still remember being a 19 year old wrestler going “hey, I never really THOUGHT about it, but that whole shooting thing can come in handy!” :smiley:

66

MP - Mostly I’m just a contrary *******. Don’t take it to heart. :wink:

67

“How many people even knew what Muay Thai was in the 80’s?”

I thought everyone did. ;p

“I think you’re approaching it from the standpoint of somebody who’s been doing this kind of stuff for awhile, and has been exposed to a lot of different things.”

No, I’m seriously a putz. I’m learning slowly though.

“How many CMA’ers, JMA’ers, KMA’ers, etc believed they had a serious advantage over a wrestler?”

The ones who didn’t check out wrestlers and ignored their history, I’m guessing.

“How many times on this forum have you heard ‘kickboxing,’ used derisively?”

To be fair, it started being used derisively as a description of kungfu men who fought like kickboxers but trained quite differently - which is a slight towards the kungfu men, not the kickboxers. In another sense, kickboxing evolved within a certain set of rules that emphasized (like boxing, and I imagine you would argue most striking arts, to which I would agree if only for lack of experience) maintainance of range and the percussive effect of multiple strikes as the way to win an encounter, rather than through superior position and breaking of structure - which I think we would both agree is not an admirable position with respect to self-defense.

“Then, and I really believe this, the UFC and similar events challenged the assumptions.”

The assumptions of people who weren’t paying attention to begin with? Ok.

“it not ‘really being Kung Fu,’ due to restrictive rules, training required for success in the ring, deriding it as ‘kickboxing with throws,’”

I’m not sure who’s saying this, so I can’t respond to it. But sanshou not being kungfu has nothing to do with any of these factors. Sanshou isn’t kungfu like strawberry ice cream isn’t a type of car. Like the color yellow isn’t a texture of sandpaper. They’re utterly different categories of things. To make inclusionary or exclusionary statements is absurd.

“I offer up dre as an example.”

Fair enough. I just wouldn’t call the situation where some people love it, some people like it, some people don’t care, some people dislike it, and some people hate it “grudging acceptance” so much as “what will always occur in any situation about anything.” But then again, I tend to ignore most of the wierd kungfu guys here. ;p I think one of the reasons I reply to your posts is you’re one of the few people here who’s posts I still read.

“I’d say the script you are reading from is that of a well informed, open minded, well trained practitioner…”

In the making, I hope.

68

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Braden–
And when I say the acceptance is grudging—I offer up dre as an example. For as many people that have embraced it here, there are just as many who want either nothing to do with it, feel it’s just a sport and doesn’t really have anything to do with self-defense, or that “Their style has the answer to that…they just have to be dedicated.”
:smiley: 

        I never said the Style had an answer , (again I go back to Mr. Wresler. . ). I just said that BJJ is too big for it's briches, and it's time for them to be taken down a notch by some sort of combined system (NOT including their techniqes, no dbout there are other wresling schools out there). The only reason I shun BJJ is that it's full of , well, you get the point.

         In other words " We're MA too , were mad as hell , and we're not going to take it anymore!" Or something to that effect.
69

I think I stole the thread. . .

Sorry for my 6 page long rant.

But I think I'm entitled to a littel despear/rage , seeing the "attitude" of some of the people arond me. . .

Oh well , it’s all yours Jon.

70

SifuAbel,
Did you send me an email? Sorry my email address changed and I forgot to update my profile.

Dre,
Sounds like you have a really serious or half serious dislike of the one true martial art.

:smiley:

As for everyone having gangster tats, well this is Southern California. Just about everyone and there gandmothers here are sporting tats. Besides the Machado tourney have a rep for getting a little out of hand.-ED

71

Originally posted by Martial fanatic
“From time to time I hear CMA say, “if only we would be allowed to use eye gouging and biting, we could defeat grapplers.””

WHAT? no eye gouging, biting, grabbing the groin and in some events, headbutting… what do they do then… dance around and throw pressed flowers at each other??

Those are the most popular techniques I learn in my Tai Ji classes . It’s not called
“YANG” style for nothing!

During each movement of the forms, as sifu call out the name of the movements, students call back the meaning of the application:

“Raise Hands”… “GOUGE THE EYES, SIR!”
“Left Ward off”… “BUTT THE HEAD, SIR!”
“Grasp the sparrows tail”…“GRAB THE GROIN, SIR!”
“Roll back”… “BITE THE GROIN, SIR!”
“Press”… “IMPLODE THE PROSTATE, SIR!”
etc. etc.

BTW Jon, why do you feel standup grappling will not free you from a clintch? Also why do you feel you have to betray your style, betray your sifu to be a good around fighter?

72

Braden

In another sense, kickboxing evolved within a certain set of rules that emphasized (like boxing, and I imagine you would argue most striking arts, to which I would agree if only for lack of experience) maintainance of range and the percussive effect of multiple strikes as the way to win an encounter, rather than through superior position and breaking of structure - which I think we would both agree is not an admirable position with respect to self-defense.

Have a word. I can see what you’re getting at, but if I (as a kickboxer) kicked you in the legs and then combo’d your head so you hit the floor, would I not be in an “admirable position”?:slight_smile:

Or presumably I need to move in close through “superior positioning” and “break your structure” (by throwing you on the floor) for it to be called Kung Fu?
:stuck_out_tongue:

73

Sick of the eye gouge response

As a kung fu practitioner I am sick to death of all the “Dim mak” or the eye gouge/biting posts made by either reverse trolls or inexperienced students. That is not what kung fu is all about. There are no absolutes in fighting. I think the style vs issue hasn’t been relevant as an issue since UFC 10. If you want to talk about purely striking solutions then you don’t have to go far. UFc itself has many bouts with skilled strikers who have come up with their own stategies against grapplers.

Note: IMO there is a big difference between strikers and stand up fighters. For example “Stand up” fighters have no flow of movement beyond the walking stride range, they are trained to keep their feet somewhat close together and side by side. This is a no no when fighting one that prefers a below chest targeting range(meaning those who don’t fight with just the boxing square marques de queensbury rules in mind).

There are a few rules I don’t like in these kinds of events but the eye-groin-biting(groin biting? :eek: )issue is not one of them. So please, kung fu brothers, find better ways to describe your art’s tactics. It makes us all look bad when this is used as an out for a technique.

74

If you have doubt of dim mak then you should also doubt the effectiveness of acupuncture. It is the Chinese medicine belief that human body consisting of many channel of energies. A person is sick is because one or many of channels got congested. With acupuncture, the cure is to open up the obstructed channel so that the energy flow through, returning back to normal flow; This is done by stimulating vital points mapping throughout the body. This alternative medicine with respected to western medical science is proved now to be effective. That is why it is wide spread.

This is one of positive and constructive use of this ancient medical knowledge. It is used to promote health, save lifes. As with many other things there is the other dark face (yin yang), a negative way of use of this medical knowledge. Which is the case using this to cause injure, illness, death to some individual by causing obstruction or cutting off chi/energy channels. It is the reflection of an image on mirror. Open to cure sickness. Close, shut off to cause sickness. It is just that simple. Acupuncture is certainly be used in the negative way. Dim mak is doing acupuncture without the needle. With respect to use the needle, if you think any body will know how to use the needle because it seem simple then you are wrong. With respect to striking, if you think everyone can strike the way the dim mak person strike then you are more wrong. The art also requires special training because ordinary blows do not have the same effect on these points. A special type of striking force must be applied, often at a certain angle(s). Time of day can also be a factor.

In the past, these methods or systems were secretly transmitted to those who were member of the family and those who are trusted worthy. The fact is that it takes a lot to prove oneself and gaining trust is already difficult not mentioning mastering the death touch art. The people who know these systems are rare and they normally don’t want to publicly acknowledge.

There were many systems of dim mak which could cause damage ranging from light ( temporary disable someone ) to heavy ( killing ). A high skill dim mak person could do “a kill” without anyone awareness. My Master knew of one individual got killed from this kind of light touch. The victim was walking upstair in a restaurant. He crossed over with one individual coming down stair. There was a light touch like any normal contact on street or public places. By the time he realized it happenned, it was too late! Few days later, he died !

75

Don’t get your pantys in a twist now…

I wasn’t dissing Dim Mak. On the contrary I respect it highly. But, how many people really know it? Alot of kung fu people don’t know it. I’m saying that a relatively new student or even an advanced student can’t “just use dim mak” to solve the problem. It isn’t something that is taught everday to just anyone. So it can’t be used as an example of a normal technique. Pressure points and such are very different from Dim Mak.

76

I agree. It’s hard to apply presure point attacks on a moving target. It takes years of training, and practise to become proficient at such. Also knowledge of anatomy, and accupuncture would help greatly. Knowing how mutch force to apply, and the effects.

77

Groan. I have to say it again…

SifuAbel… is… correct :slight_smile:

in that:

–MMA stopped being style vs style a long time ago.

–If eye-gouge, headbutt, groin tear is the response to “grappling,” you’re long on tricks and short on solid fighting skill.

–striking vs grappling isn’t really an argument. Each is necessary. Varying degrees of each are emphasized in any style.

–He’s right about what a “stand-up” fighter would constitute.

–He’s even more right about skilled fighters, who prefer to use their striking weapons, who have evolved highly effective strategies against other skilled fighters who have their base in grappling.

I really hate when you do this Abel. :smiley:

Braden–I think “not paying attention,” is just a tad harsh. It might be true to some extent, but still just a tad harsh. There’s a tendency towards what Ap calls “belief preservation,” and it’s especially common amongst those with limited experience in/against other styles. In other words, people have invested a LOT of time in something, and they would really like to believe it’s the end all, be all… Sifu starts to believe his own press after a decade and passes that down to his students, etc.

There’s also the money issue–“combat grappling” has suddenly become “part” of the training in other arts. It is true that it needs addressing, but the way in which some schools go about it is sort of a blatant money maker. So I’ll give you the truth that the whole thing isn’t as extreme as I might have sounded off on.

And lastly, for dre–if you read this thread–there isn’t a decent BJJer out there that will tell you that all you need is BJJ is a ring fight. What they will tell you, if they are responsible, is that:

  1. Taking down a person who’s not used to it is one of the simplest things in the world (way easier than hitting them)

  2. If you don’t know what’s going on down there, you’re unaware of the dangers. Most of the “dangerous,” things in jiujitsu are counterintuitive. You might instinctively reach for your opponent’s eyes, for instance, and be rewarded with an armbar for your efforts.

78

bjj gangs? lol lol lol lol lol lol

Someone mentioned BJJ gangs. LOL Is that another story now told by some KF masters to keep students. lol I have been training in BJJ for quite some time, and have to say that the individuals I have met are in no way different than when I trained in Hapkido and Kung Fu. They are all either sponsored competitors, hard working professionals, or family men/women and children. What gangs? LOL The only difference is, bjj teaches a student not to blindly follow a master, but to inovate, create and challenge your skills against other grappling practitioners. Nothing wrong with that. I should mention that historically, it is the Kung Fu schools which have gone through their share of “dojo wars” in the early 60s and 70s.

There are several components to BJJ. Self defense. Sport (gi and no gi) and Vale Tudo (no rules competitions). People chose what to train in. I’m sorry if anyone has had a bad experience with any school/club owner. There are few people certified to teach bjj. Those who are, are some of the nicest people you’re ever going to meet.
MA fanatic

79

Thats good to hear

Originally posted by Tigerstyle
[B]“And as Torrance is BJJ Mecca, so I think it reflects the tone of many of the students.”

Shinbushi,
Man that sucks to hear about what that tournament was like. In my personal experience though, I went to about four different grappling tournaments (2 in Vegas, 2 in Cali) and I never saw so much respect and appreciation for each other by the competitors. [/B]

That’s good to hear. It might be as it was local. Don’t know just turned me off. That and One of my students kept doing illegal moves. 4 warnings :rolleyes:

80

Originally posted by Unmatchable
[B]

WHAT? no eye gouging, biting, grabbing the groin and in some events, headbutting… what do they do then… dance around and throw pressed flowers at each other??

Those are the most popular techniques I learn in my Tai Ji classes . It’s not called
“YANG” style for nothing!

During each movement of the forms, as sifu call out the name of the movements, students call back the meaning of the application:

“Raise Hands”… “GOUGE THE EYES, SIR!”
“Left Ward off”… “BUTT THE HEAD, SIR!”
“Grasp the sparrows tail”…“GRAB THE GROIN, SIR!”
“Roll back”… “BITE THE GROIN, SIR!”
“Press”… “IMPLODE THE PROSTATE, SIR!”
etc. etc.
[/B]

I agree with a lot of that. “driy” it what much of the styles are based around.