Yeah, interesting.
I’d like to have a go on the ground, just to see how crap I am.
I’d be interested to learn some basics. Don’t know if I’d want to put too much time into it though.
But defenses, counters and a few holds would be good.
First: The bottom line is that if you can’t fight on the ground, generally, you’re not a very good fighter.
Second: There are people who naturally have exceptional balance, and are very difficult to take down. So it is very believable when one poster wrote that some grapplers had a hard time taking him down even though he was of much smaller stature. However, to tone those standup/clinch skills, one still needs to do some grappling. Sooner or later you’ll meet a decent grappler (someone beyond highschool level experience) who will read your body so well that he will take you down at will. Sensitivity and body reading is something grapplers do well.
Third: One doesn’t really have to get hurt grappling even when training for NHB. If your partners aknowledge being tapped and hit, one doesn’t really have to hit hard. You can get cheap grappling gloves and just tap the head and body allowing your apponent to know that he is being controlled, and struck. When practicing submissions, its a good idea to at first practice catch and release (nothing stranious).
Fourth: I think where most CMA schools miss the grappling game is when they begin teaching untested submissions and untested take downs. The key to grappling is controlling positioning on the ground, reversals, pressure, and sensitivity. Physics and knowledge of leverage is far more important than a collection of joint locks some CMA teach claiming to be teaching ground fighting.
Fifth: I’m glad you had the experience with ground fighting that you did. I think that most who try ground grappling with skilled grapplers think, “I can’t believe I missed such a large component of combat.” One also learns patience, pain control, fear managing, and developes a very strong sense of confidence (from knowledge that what he learned, he tested and can use). Some realize that had they not studied grappling, they would have been tapping out too quickly. Others incorporate ground control and submissions into their CMA arsenal. In any case, an individual discovers a whole new crucial demention to fighting.
MA fanatic
Someone mentioned Japanese JJ. I have to say that when put against a BJJ practitioner is a one on one fight, a JJ guy will lose. JJ does not teach any points of control on the ground. JJ is virtually untested (at least in over 100 years). JJ has numerous techniques but they are taught in a vacume (against students who cooperate with one another, uncontested classes with virtually no sparring). I have known a few jj black belts who would get tossed around by a friend of mine who is a Judoka. Though Judo came from JJ, it is the way it is practiced (contested techniques and full resistance training) that makes it presently surperior. Many masters will aknowledge that should kodokan Judoka meet a JJ practitioner, the Judoka would have no difficulty what so ever in throwing the JJ guy, and/or submitting him. I practice BJJ now, and we often have guys from Japanese JJ, Hapkido, Aikido and some who practice Chin Na come in to our practice session. It only takes them one class to realize that they can’t pull off a single submission attempt from their arts. Why? Because they never practiced the technique properly (contested, with none cooperating partner trying to submitt or strike them), and their positioning is all off.
MA fanatic
good for you 
sounds like you have a good teacher and class…
david
From time to time I hear CMA say, “if only we would be allowed to use eye gouging and biting, we could defeat grapplers.” I used to think that way myself. Nothing could be further from the truth. You never want to grapple an experienced grappler who is permited to bite or eye gouge. In a contest such as that, it is the CMA who would be blinded and/or torn to shreads. Also, eye attacks, and even biting is are not as easy to pull off. Most just talk about them, and hardly practice them. I think most CMA guys should just grapple instead of finding reasons why they have a chance on the ground with a superior grappler.
As for grappling tapes, I strongly suggest video aids by Marco Lala. They are jammed backed with techniques, excellent quality
and organized. He also sells his tapes for 19.95. I have most grappling tapes on the market. I own all of Marco Lala’s.
www.fightingsecrets.com. Another excellent instroctor is Erik Paulson. www.erikpaulson.com For solo conditioning for grappling, I’d also with www.amerRoss.com Actually, all instructors have ‘conditioning for grappling’ tapes well worth the money.
MA fanatic
Originally posted by MA fanatic
Someone mentioned Japanese JJ. I have to say that when put against a BJJ practitioner is a one on one fight, a JJ guy will lose. JJ does not teach any points of control on the ground. JJ is virtually untested (at least in over 100 years). JJ has numerous techniques but they are taught in a vacume (against students who cooperate with one another, uncontested classes with virtually no sparringMA fanatic
It all depends on what teacher you have MA Fanatic, some schools favour more strikes and others favour groundfighting with throws, you can’t pigeon hole all JJ schools like that it all depends on where you go. My first school was all throws and groundfighting my second school was mainly striking and throws it depends on where you go.
Grogan is right on this one. Japanese JJ is victum to mcdojo’s like all styles. And I have seen some Ju-Jitsu schools who dont throw or go to the ground (I always wondered where it went, JJ has had it in there)
But I have met many instructors who ffel if you cant throw as well as a Judoka you wont progress. I have also met JJ guys who are all ground work and ignore the striking and throwing part, they teach it but dont work it enough.
Over all Ju-Jitsu suffers fromm the same problem most styles do, how the students train. The information is there, but the training is not.
depends on the style
Originally posted by dre
[B]
er, actually, Classical JJ was made for Samurai In armour. Hence the absence of many Eye striking or biting techs.
[/B]
Pre-Edo CJJ did have kumi-uchi (grappling in armor) but post Edo was for regular clothes, and in that era it was the hakama. (pladed skirt like clothes). It be able to bite or ete gouge you have to have proper positionand space to do it. If you do not know how to fight on the gound them you cannot do those techniques.
Jon,
It sounds like you’re on your way to achieving your full potential! Congratulations on your training, and it’s so nice to see someone with the humility and fighting spirit you have. I hope you go far in your abilities.
Everyone who has gone and tested himself on the ground with good grapplers has come to the same conclusions. Pretty soon it will be you who is arguing with the people who are trying to “bite our faces off.” :rolleyes:
Seriously, congrats on your training. Stay safe, and train hard my friend.
Ryu
“From time to time I hear CMA say, “if only we would be allowed to use eye gouging and biting, we could defeat grapplers.””
For the record I never said I wanted to bite anyone.
So according to you no one can win against BJJ , not CMA, not even JJJ. I suppose we should all stop whining and convert now, while there is still time!
I love when people try to convert me to stuff. Generally, when I see anything new ,I take the most pessimistic/doubtfull view of it until it’s porven satisfactoraly to me.
“I’ve been considering learning some (more - my Mantis Sifu does some ground) ground from a regular wresler ,not a BJJ’er (I wouldn’t if they were the last MA on Earth. . .).”
dre,
I’m curious as to why you feel so strongly against BJJ?
Thanks in advance for your response
Shinbushi
Thanks for pointing that out. I forgot to get to that comment. I have met Ju-Jitsu schools that have biteing and eye strikes as extremely important.
People should not look at what they think will defeat someone but go and find out what they do so you can counter it.
If I were boxing I would trin in boxing. If I want to beat a KF style I will learn more about it so Im not supprised. And if you want to know how to beat a ground fighter, learn groundfighting.
I like to keep a fight fast and standing up, but that does not limit to what I will learn.
Knowledge is a good thing. Try it.
Its not about converting anyone.
Its all about cross-training and putting it all together.
In other words, no one style is complete so complete the style you love.
Tiger : I’ve met lots lots of jerky BJJ’ers , I’d never be affiliated with that lot. I know all BJJ’ers (probably) aren’t that way , but , admit it, a lot of them are. Arrogant and self-righteous dosn’t win me over.
DK :If I were boxing I would trin in boxing. If I want to beat a KF style I will learn more about it so Im not supprised. And if you want to know how to beat a ground fighter, learn groundfighting.
I agree. Thats why I’m learing from the Wresler. I want to take on some BJJ. But I refuse to learn THIER system. It seems to lower youre IQ.
Check out this clip of John Hess vs Vitor Belfort. This was a NHB fight in Hawaii where everything was legal including eye gouges and biting. You can see how those “deadly techniques” do against Vitor’s sportive techniques.
Who you quotin’ with those quotes?
“I agree. Thats why I’m learing from the Wresler. I want to take on some BJJ. But I refuse to learn THIER system. It seems to lower youre IQ.”
I dont do BJJ, but I do grappling. i go to grappling and BJJ sites and dont hear them speak nearly as much about other styles as I do here.
If you dont want to learn it from BJJ, try Sambo, or others that do MMA.
BJJ is not undefeated, and the Gracies are not undefeated. There are a multitude of options.
Dre,
Sorry to hear you had some bad experiences with a few BJJ players. I know that I can come off pretty self rightous and arrogrant at times, online at least. At the same time you shouldn’t sell yourself short, the fact is BJJ is the best grappling art out there bar-none.Don’t let your pride get in the way.-ED
P.S.-Good luck with your training. I hope you find a grappling system that can help you.
I agree. Thats why I’m learing from the Wresler. I want to take on some BJJ. But I refuse to learn THIER system. It seems to lower youre IQ.
Now that’s quoteworthy.
GSD: Well , I’d say the Majority of the mantis (7* BTW) we do is chin na (seizing) in the traditional sence, but that’s just the style. The majority of you’re Mantis moves are going to come from the clinch range.
The wresler I had fun with, and was quite an experience.
I’d say that MMA is probably the best Grappling style, since in incorperates everything, while BJJ, well , is BJJ. But anyway , I have no interest in satying on the ground (how dirty ,lol) but I’d rather take it back to the clinch if possable.
DK: "I dont do BJJ, but I do grappling. i go to grappling and BJJ sites and dont hear them speak nearly as much about other styles as I do here. "
In my area there is one BJJ school (that I know of) , and the instructor that’s there has said many, many, times that BJJ is the “best” martial art.
"If you dont want to learn it from BJJ, try Sambo, or others that do MMA. "
I would if they were in my area. For some reason I can get obscure animal KF, but Judo is impossable to find. . .
“BJJ is not undefeated, and the Gracies are not undefeated. There are a multitude of options.”
Don’t even get me started on those people. Belive it or not they’re Human (so is Bruce Lee by the way, well at least he was.)