Gene Tunney on fighting.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

An unknown kind person from the wing chun community
sent me a thoughtful treat on Halloween. A limited
edition autographed copy of the out of print original
book by Gene Tunney entitled “A Man must Fight”
published in 1932. Despite my best efforts I could not
get hold of a copy till now. And despite my best
efforts(no thanks to USPS)I have been unable to track
and thank the giver…may he/she be richly blessed.

I read the book right away. Some wc folks (ex-TWC-
Andrew Nerlich for instance) have referred to Jack
Dempsey’s book on Championship boxing- and made note
of Dempsey’s vertical fist and falling step as
being instructive perhaps for wc folks.

In any case re Tunney. Tunney was a world champ and
had a little shy of 70 professional fights(perhaps
65?).He fought Dempsey twice and defeated him both
times-
the second time involved the controversy of the long
count. Unlike many boxer’s writings (including
Dempsey)
Tunney’s book is completely his own without a co
author or ghost writer.

The only shortcoming of the book from a fighting
standpoint is that there are lots of understandable
and interesting anecdotes- including that of Dempsey’s
manager not allowing to fight a “spade” the well known
and very accomplished Black fighter Wills.Those
days!!!
But some interesting notes from a wing chun
standpoint—

  1. Great emphasis on conditioning- knowledge is not
    enough. He was better conditioned than Dempsey.
  2. Dempsey’s punches were not as straight to the point
    as his. “I had learned that blows driven with both
    hands straight from the shoulder,piston-rod fashion,
    in an exchange, beat the hooks and swings every time.
    Moreover , getting inside the hooks and swings with
    straight punches parries these blows without losing
    any of the effectiveness of the straight drives.Angle
    blows spend themselves on the upper arms and shoulders
    of the straight hitter in fast mixing.”
    “Any fighter with a good, straight right-hand punch
    will lick the best south paw)…straight and good are
    the key words.
    “…the necessity of always remaining calm, no matter
    what the crisis,””'“…when I was in danger I was
    capable of hitting hardest.”
    Other titbit’s–

..Tunney stood fairly square on so that both hands
could be like pistons.

..Tunney also was wary of Dempsey’s illegal rabbit
punches to the back of the neck. Keep your distance
unless you are going to use illegal things and know
how… he himself whispered to a rabbit puncher that
he would take his eye out with a thumb- concern about
eye damage .
A straight line timed right with power beats a curve
every time.
Sometime you can fall or be knocked down- be prepared
with a recovery strategy ahead of time.

Boxing is more “external” than wing chun…the book is
a delight and may be of interest to chinese boxers as
well.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Jack Dempsey once.
Now vicariously going through Gene Tunney’s experience
and thinking was a special pleasure thanks to an
unknown person in the wing chun community- thanks
again for the gift-friend-whoever you are.

Joy Chaudhuri

2

Joy,

sounds like a great book. Enjoy. Must be good to know you still have the respect of many in WC, including me.

(No, it wasn’t me)

3

Yuanfen,

Thanks for sharing some of the highlights of the book with us. If you run across other important tidbits of information, please continue sharing them. It sounds like a really good book.

David

4

More on Gene Tunney

http://www.genetunney.com/books.html

Some good stuff here. Ray

5

VERY NICE site!

Thanks, Ray!

6

Wow- what a treat Ray. Tunney was one of the smartest fighters-
ever. I always admired him.
BTW- I think I figured out who was kind enough to send me Tuney’s autobiography. …a Wing Chun sifu from another line!
Thanks friend.
Lots of good writing by Tunney in the link that Ray provides.
Most boxing champs dont write at least by themselves- Tunney is an exception… Torres (trained by Cus DAmato) middleweight champ was another.
I have always looked for essays, statements, interviews by and about first rate boxers and grapplers.
In India I grew up with the Gama stories-Gama was the best wrestler in his time. And at oklahoma there was Danny Hodges one of the best grapplers ever— not much money in pro wrestling those days- so he swirched to boxing after wrestling–did well as an amateur-golden gloves- fair as a pro but eventually got chewed up in his last fight- fighting with boxing rules. He could not get away from the way the wrestlers held their hands–lower.
In an interview a coupleof years or so ago—it was his opinion that in a real fight he would bet on the wrestler. The debate continues.

But both boxing and wrestling skills IMO deteriorate faster than wing chun skills. It was sad to see Roy Jones “win” last saturday night. He is 34- and the greatest pound for pound boxer- has begun a slow slide. He is interested in taking on Tyson- who is over the hill- and among other silly things Tyson has done atleast on paper is to sign up witha Japanese ultimate K!? group!
Egads!

7

Dittos … excellent stuff!! Thanks, Ray.

  • kj
8

Originally posted by yuanfen

But both boxing and wrestling skills IMO deteriorate faster than wing chun skills.

there’s really no proof to back that up. My primary judo coach is 73. He still schools the young guys. I have a friend that fought a thai boxing match as a birthday present to himself…for his 50th birthday. Many of the heads of shuai chiao are in their 60’s - still schooling young guys. The longevity is there if you are training properly. Pro boxers are fighting full contact for a living - there’s a higher chance of brain damage than say, a professional WC sifu who teaches for a living - the sifu isn’t going full contact anywhere near as much, if at all. The same goes for competitive grappling - knee and other joint injuries are common. It’s the nature of the beast that is testing yourself. Once your competition days are done, your training doesn’t end. you keep at it. The longevity is definitely there.

9

Originally posted by SevenStar
there’s really no proof to back that up.

No proof? LMAO!
[B]

It’s easy to find 50+ Wing Chun folks who can beat the young guys, but what boxer can you point to who could hold his own against today’s fighters? Could a good boxer beat his younger self in a hypothetical duel? Boxing takes a toll, as does age. What gives longetivity to folks like Yuanfen and I is that learning never stops in Wing Chun. The decline is still out there somewhere, but its a lot ****her out than for ring sports.
[QUOTE]
My primary judo coach is 73. He still schools the young guys.

My judo coach, Yosh Uchida, was like that too. But, he retired from coaching eventually, long years after he quit competing. He’s still around, pushing 90, but he’s gone into king-making in San Jose politics instead of coaching, which was always just a sideline. God bless him for his contributions to the art in the USA.
[B]

I have a friend that fought a thai boxing match as a birthday present to himself…for his 50th birthday. Many of the heads of shuai chiao are in their 60’s - still schooling young guys.
[/B]

Your friend sounds pretty good. Did you know that Yuanfen is 70 and he’s been schooling the young guys for the last 25 years or so? He made it out to San Jose in April and schooled a few of us there. (But his elbow was out when he hit me.) :stuck_out_tongue:
[B]

The longevity is there if you are training properly. Pro boxers are fighting full contact for a living - there’s a higher chance of brain damage than say, a professional WC sifu who teaches for a living.
[/B]

That’s what we’re talking about. Have you seen Ali lately?
[B]

  • the sifu isn’t going full contact anywhere near as much, if at all.
    [/B]

Right. Although I’ll get quibbles here on KFO, there’s no necessity to go full contact to train Wing Chun properly, and the ones who experience the fullness of contact aren’t usually the old-timers. They’re dishing it out :stuck_out_tongue:
[B]

The same goes for competitive grappling - knee and other joint injuries are common. It’s the nature of the beast that is testing yourself. Once your competition days are done, your training doesn’t end. you keep at it. The longevity is definitely there. [/B]

Hmmm. We may be talking about different things. I don’t see Ken Shamrock or Tank winning ring fights these days.

As a final point of clarification, sure some fighters—Ken Shamrock comes to mind—make great coaches when they’re own careers are over, and its possible to stay in some kind of shape. I wouldn’t have wanted to tangle with a 70-year-old Jack Dempsey as he did laps in NY’s Central Park, but he learned it was time to hang up his career before he got killed in the ring, a lesson some haven’t learned in time and for which they’ve paid the price. Did I mention Ali, f’rinstance?

Regards,

10

John

I don’t get what you are trying to say…are you saying that wing chun deteriorates slower?

Perhaps it’s b/c the standards of what constitutes “skills” differs. How DO you measure WC skills? Those guys seem to lose it cuz they go out there and get physical. Fighters get in the ring and fight. Grapplers do that too. WC ppl talk alot!! :slight_smile: I look at TKD masters and they are 10000x better shape than all the wc sifus at the same ages when they older…

11

Bodies age; Wing Chun is more mental…to a point

Originally posted by EmptyCup
I don’t get what you are trying to say…are you saying that wing chun deteriorates slower?

  1. Bodies age. Bodies that sustain damage over time from boxing and grappling injuries, from training as well as from contests, will suffer from the stiffening of scar tissue build-up, and brains that are concussed will suffer too. It’s not fighting, but look at the excellent athletes that play US football. From the injuries they sustain, they wind up crippled by middle age for the most part. Wing Chun trains without this. Of course, Wing Chun isn’t a competitive sport, so we don’t wind up getting hurt in competition since the days of anything goes Wing Chun competitions are past, due to liability concerns. In a way, that’s too bad since in recent years there have developed more professional opportunities in that regard that make it worthwhile, but still the rules thing gets in the way of actualizing Wing Chun potential. Not interested in debating this all over. The KFO archives are full of such discussions with opinions all over the map on this. I say there is Wing Chun, and then there is Wing Chun. The devil is indeed in the details.
    [B]

Perhaps it’s b/c the standards of what constitutes “skills” differs.
[/B]

Yep. What I consider to be the skills of Wing Chun have a lot to do with my position on how long a body can improve, not just maintain or slowly degrade. Some of these skills are demonstrable in being able to control others, not just strike them opportunistically, but rather shutting down and taking apart their offense and defensive abilities.
[B]

How DO you measure WC skills? Those guys seem to lose it cuz they go out there and get physical.
[/B]

I haven’t seen too many of the pro fights with folks alleged to be Wing Chun style. I’d like to see the pro fights conducted on HK rooftops if they could be santioned. I think the environment is more realistic than a ring. :cool:
[B]

Fighters get in the ring and fight. Grapplers do that too.
[/B]

No, they don’t really fight. They play rough. That’s fine. That’s sporting, and I admire them for it.
[B]

WC ppl talk alot!! :slight_smile:
[/B]

Yep. Some of us do. Too many schools are just marketing gimmicks.
[B]

I look at TKD masters and they are 10000x better shape than all the wc sifus at the same ages when they older… [/B]

Are you comparing apples to apples? Masters to “sifus?” :stuck_out_tongue:

How many TKD “masters” are there still able to mix it up at, oh say, 60? 70? How would they fare against Wing Chun? I know Wing Chun folks who can and do mix it up, but again, I don’t see 'em doing it in front of a large paying audience. More’s the pity. Would settle a lot of questions. Of course, true Wing Chun “masters” are fewer than generally perceived. There are more people claiming to be grandmasters than there are actual good, knowledgeable Wing Chun folks. There’s a lot of deception in martial arts, not just in the Wing Chun ranks.

Didn’t mean to stir things up. I kind’a thought that my “facts” were self-evident to most of us here.

Regards,

12

Sevenstar in part missed my point. Talking past each other perhaps. What’s the conext?

About relative deterioration
with age- boxing is way up ahead of whatever is down the line.
Sure you can stretch out athletic longevity in boxing by being selective on who you fight and how often and whether you turn pro or not. But staying competent also means staying very active and taking risks. Sugar Ray Leonard couldnt turn the clock back-neither could Joe Louis— the list is long. Foreman is a bit of an exception- but there are reasons. he did not have a long amateur career compared to Robinson and co. He dropped off after losing to Ali and another person who fought like Ali. In his brief return- he was slow- but had his wallop-- that stays for a while after speed and timing and legs fade. Tunney was a thinking fighter -paced himself and retired after the Dempsey fights.But dont kid yourself the cerebral damage in boxing is considerable.There is no controversy there.

In wrestling they dont take direct head shots- but evn the greatest folks like Dan Gable often have bad knees. The twisting and turning of the knees take their toll. In both sports- eventually the legs dont do what you want them to do.

In judo- sure some old timers can still throw- if you give thema chance… but as an Olympic judo bronze medalist from Arizona found out when on the ground- judo
does not teach you what to do with fast head shots. Also judo takes its physical toll… I havent seen my judo champion friend in years- John Ross- probably still teaches in California…he has broken so many bones in his body and face I think even he lost count and he was national champ. in both US and Taiwan.
Gene Labelle is an exception- but he knew wrestling, judo and boxing and was/is smart.
Good wing chun is different- when done right… does not primarily depend on muscle power and has incredibly good understanding of motion, stategy and tactics. You can last longer even against folks who depend primarily on athletic skills. First rate taiji is also
long lasting and I dont mean the old folks in parks and ymca-s.

But self defense has changed drastically- specially in the US–
gun fu, knife-fu, the law, technology(the auto) has changed things. More of us(US) died on the highways during the Vietnam war than in Vietnam. Most folks dont have or give the time it takes to become good in MA.
So staying calm, alert, healthy , coordinated, and creative are important in self defense for a lot of folks. Good MA gives an edge to some.
Thanks to Anerlich on this list- I suggest reading “Strong on Defense”

13

Boxing is all right by me. :slight_smile:

As regards boxing, I suggest everyone read the list of Gene Tunney’s writings as posted by Yong Chun (Ray V.R.). Tunney was a rare breed of boxer, able to think, to write, to really punch.

http://www.genetunney.com/books.html

Some real gems of insights within.

Regards,

14

I’m sorry, but this presumption about longevity is simply wrong.

The issue is ringwear and that’s it. Many people who do Judo/Boxing/Wrestling earnestly, but are not looking to become world champions do just fine into their old age.

Now, when you strive to be a world champion, you get beat up. It’s a lot of stress on the body. It’s not the practice of the art, it’s the constant pushing your body to the limit, the grit and sweat and full contact and constant nagging injuries. It’s a REALITY of training to be the best in competition. Rhadi Ferguson (Olympic Judo Alternate) told me once that at the top level, a lot of times, wins and losses come down to who is healthy.

Give WC a strong competition format with the same depth of talent to draw from and you will see WCers with the same **** problems. Broken bodies at 60, knee and joint problems, whatever.

You really can’t compare top flight competitors to earnest students of an art who aren’t looking to be world champions. Totally apples and oranges.

But don’t listen to me…what the **** do I know about ringwear or the lack of it.

15

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I’m sorry, but this presumption about longevity is simply wrong.

Then we’re wrong. :eek:
[B]

The issue is ringwear and that’s it. Many people who do Judo/Boxing/Wrestling earnestly, but are not looking to become world champions do just fine into their old age.
[/B]

That’s good to know. Then, are they really pursuing the art if they don’t condition to the point it takes to win in any given situation? As a former amateur boxer, I relied on conditioning as much as anything.
[B]

Now, when you strive to be a world champion, you get beat up. It’s a lot of stress on the body. It’s not the practice of the art, it’s the constant pushing your body to the limit, the grit and sweat and full contact and constant nagging injuries. It’s a REALITY of training to be the best in competition. Rhadi Ferguson (Olympic Judo Alternate) told me once that at the top level, a lot of times, wins and losses come down to who is healthy.
[/B]

Yep on the last. Doesn’t that support what Yuanfen wrote? I knocked folks out in boxing while training. I broke a teammates leg in judo practice (his fault). That’s wear and tear.
[B]

Give WC a strong competition format with the same depth of talent to draw from and you will see WCers with the same **** problems. Broken bodies at 60, knee and joint problems, whatever.
[/B]

I disagree. The training methodology of Yip Man Wing Chun (for want of a better term) does not require as much damaging practice. BTW, in my school, we evolved over time from just hitting each other (and the consequent race to the drinking fountain after practice to wash out the blood) to a system in which the aim is to control and shut down your opponent’s offense so that you can dispatch him without damage to yourself. IMO, this is what Wing Chun is supposed to be.
[B]

You really can’t compare top flight competitors to earnest students of an art who aren’t looking to be world champions. Totally apples and oranges.
[/B]

And your point is…? If someone practices boxing day in and day out as we do Wing Chun, then you will see a deterioration of the body in the boxer and a decline in ability over time. You cannot practice real boxing without getting hit and without hard conditioning that in itself takes its toll on the body.
[B]

But don’t listen to me…what the **** do I know about ringwear or the lack of it. [/B]

I dunno, but I value your perspective. Likely your views will change over time as do most thinking people’s.

Regards,

16

2 points:

i dont beleive we should compare wc people of over 60 years with those of other MA, but compare them to ‘ordinary folk’. I do not mean the wc masters, but just those who have spent maybe 40+ years of chi sau and siu lim tao. As yuanfen said it is the same with those who have done taijiquan or any other internal art. As a wc guy i can look forward to an old age where i can still function very well all other factors being equal, and function better than if i had spent 40 years doing boxing or wrestling. Its not really about what MA is ‘better’ or more ‘combat’.

how old is yuanfen? somewhere in that thread it said you are 70. i respect your opinions on this thread no matter what your age, but still i feel impressed.

17

john
How many"masters" are there still able to mix it up at, oh say, 60? 70?
though i do agree with you on the fact that wing chun that emphisizes control and feeling over punch punch punch and punch again. can build skills with out the risk to reward ratio that external training and hardcoreing put your body through .
but that old tired say about fight ing into your 60’s 70’s and so on is just plain stupid , if your still thinking about fighting some one at that age you need mental help not martial arts .

18

MerryP is correct - RINGwear. If you use your wingchun in the ring you will be just as susceptible to injury/wear as any other style of martial arts. Or are we to assume that because we practice Wing Chun, we will never get hit or lose? Winning will wear on you you less than losing, OK. So let’s admit what are the real parameters affecting longevity of fighting skills: ring competition and winning vs. losing.

Typical boxing training is more demanding than typical Wing Chun training, but I would say to the degree that it is more realistic. If you want to get good at Wing Chun AND be able to take on fighters of other styles that are in the SAME talent range that you are, you will need to train the same way, or not too far off. So I think that the main difference again is intent and intensity of training. There may be some small difference but not too much.

signed
-your friendly neighborhood externalized Wing Chun practicioner

19

Well to counter my own argument, it is true that Wing Chun won’t take a punch to give a punch, so we can assume that the ring fight will be over much faster with either a win or a loss. Getting knocked out in the first round is probably safer than taking punishment for 10 rounds and THEN getting knocked out.

But what if Wing Chun practicioner cares about winning? He might play the game then, pace himself, clinch, etc.

20

Originally posted by John Weiland

No proof? LMAO!
It’s easy to find 50+ Wing Chun folks who can beat the young guys, but what boxer can you point to who could hold his own against today’s fighters? Could a good boxer beat his younger self in a hypothetical duel? Boxing takes a toll, as does age. What gives longetivity to folks like Yuanfen and I is that learning never stops in Wing Chun. The decline is still out there somewhere, but its a lot ****her out than for ring sports.

beat WHAT young guys? yeah, you may school some newbies, and even some advanced people on a recreational level. That is something that will also apply in judo, kickboxing, etc. you have no proof to back up a claim that wc has more longevity than those arts. For every old WC guy who still trains, you can find an old judo guy also.


Your friend sounds pretty good. Did you know that Yuanfen is 70 and he’s been schooling the young guys for the last 25 years or so? He made it out to San Jose in April and schooled a few of us there. (But his elbow was out when he hit me.) :stuck_out_tongue:

that’s awesome. I hope I’m still doing that when I’m 70.

That’s what we’re talking about. Have you seen Ali lately?
PRO BOXER. If they had professional level WC bouts, you’d see the same thing. I can box all my life, but If Ali never stepped into a ring and only sparred medium contact, he wouldn’t have head trauma either. You can’t compare the longevity of a sifu and a pro athlete - it’s apples and oranges.


Right. Although I’ll get quibbles here on KFO, there’s no necessity to go full contact to train Wing Chun properly, and the ones who experience the fullness of contact aren’t usually the old-timers. They’re dishing it out :stuck_out_tongue:

yeah, plenty of quibbles. But since that’s not the scope of this discussion, I won’t post mine.

I don’t see Ken Shamrock or Tank winning ring fights these days.

that’s irrelevant. They still train…longevity. Ken is in great shape, actually. Tank never really had any business in the octagon in the first place. He just likes to brawl and knew he could school many of these TMA guys.

As a final point of clarification, sure some fighters—Ken Shamrock comes to mind—make great coaches when they’re own careers are over, and its possible to stay in some kind of shape. I wouldn’t have wanted to tangle with a 70-year-old Jack Dempsey as he did laps in NY’s Central Park, but he learned it was time to hang up his career before he got killed in the ring, a lesson some haven’t learned in time and for which they’ve paid the price. Did I mention Ali, f’rinstance?

I agree with that completely. that’s why you can’t place an old WC guy in the same category as an old PRO boxer. The WC guy was never in a position to take such damage. Compare the WC guy with the recreational judo coach, the youth boxing coach, etc. and training/age stats will pair up better.