Gene Tunney on fighting.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Re: Bodies age; Wing Chun is more mental…to a point

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Weiland

but still the rules thing gets in the way of actualizing Wing Chun potential.

:rolleyes: I won’t go there.


Yep. What I consider to be the skills of Wing Chun have a lot to do with my position on how long a body can improve, not just maintain or slowly degrade. Some of these skills are demonstrable in being able to control others, not just strike them opportunistically, but rather shutting down and taking apart their offense and defensive abilities.

hmm… sounds alot like a grappler.

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Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]Sevenstar in part missed my point. Talking past each other perhaps. What’s the conext?

About relative deterioration
with age- boxing is way up ahead of whatever is down the line.
Sure you can stretch out athletic longevity in boxing by being selective on who you fight and how often and whether you turn pro or not. But staying competent also means staying very active and taking risks. Sugar Ray Leonard couldnt turn the clock back-neither could Joe Louis— the list is long. Foreman is a bit of an exception- but there are reasons. he did not have a long amateur career compared to Robinson and co. He dropped off after losing to Ali and another person who fought like Ali. In his brief return- he was slow- but had his wallop-- that stays for a while after speed and timing and legs fade. Tunney was a thinking fighter -paced himself and retired after the Dempsey fights.But dont kid yourself the cerebral damage in boxing is considerable.There is no controversy there.

In wrestling they dont take direct head shots- but evn the greatest folks like Dan Gable often have bad knees. The twisting and turning of the knees take their toll. In both sports- eventually the legs dont do what you want them to do.

In judo- sure some old timers can still throw- if you give thema chance… but as an Olympic judo bronze medalist from Arizona found out when on the ground- judo
does not teach you what to do with fast head shots. Also judo takes its physical toll… I havent seen my judo champion friend in years- John Ross- probably still teaches in California…he has broken so many bones in his body and face I think even he lost count and he was national champ. in both US and Taiwan.
Gene Labelle is an exception- but he knew wrestling, judo and boxing and was/is smart.
Good wing chun is different- when done right… does not primarily depend on muscle power and has incredibly good understanding of motion, stategy and tactics. You can last longer even against folks who depend primarily on athletic skills. First rate taiji is also
long lasting and I dont mean the old folks in parks and ymca-s.

But self defense has changed drastically- specially in the US–
gun fu, knife-fu, the law, technology(the auto) has changed things. More of us(US) died on the highways during the Vietnam war than in Vietnam. Most folks dont have or give the time it takes to become good in MA.
So staying calm, alert, healthy , coordinated, and creative are important in self defense for a lot of folks. Good MA gives an edge to some.
Thanks to Anerlich on this list- I suggest reading “Strong on Defense” [/B]

excellent post. I agree with everything you said here, except:

“Good wing chun is different- when done right… does not primarily depend on muscle power and has incredibly good understanding of motion, stategy and tactics. You can last longer even against folks who depend primarily on athletic skills. First rate taiji is also
long lasting and I dont mean the old folks in parks and ymca-s.”

grappling is the EXACT same way. So, Good WC isn’t different.

Also, in the first paragraph, it almost sounds as if you’re saying you don’t have to keep active in order to remain proficient in WC. I could be misunderstanding you there, though.

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Originally posted by John Weiland


And your point is…? If someone practices boxing day in and day out as we do Wing Chun, then you will see a deterioration of the body in the boxer and a decline in ability over time. You cannot practice real boxing without getting hit and without hard conditioning that in itself takes its toll on the body.

you can’t practice any form of hand to hand combat without getting hit… to not do so is merely going through the motions - having an untested hypothesis…

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My Point? My point is this–as an amateur boxer, I can be in great shape, I can spar maybe twice or three times a week, maybe for 15-20 minutes all week, but work the pads and bags and do drills the other 3 or 4 days I go. I’m in shape, but not a conditioning machine because I’m not looking for a competitive edge.

I’m a dedicated boxer. I’m not looking to become a world champ, but I’m a dedicated earnest student of boxing. Maybe I’ll have a handful of matches to test myself. I’ll probably be just fine at 70. Just like the hypothetical WC practicioner that people talk about here.

You know what? The above sounds a lot like the way most earnest dedicated students of practice. But people who want to be top notch competitors don’t have that luxury. They beat their bodies up in competition and hard training.

It’s not a methodology between arts issue–it’s a methodology between training to be the best in competition and being an earnest student issue.

I’ll say it again–and type it slowly-- IF WC had a competition format with talent depth equivalent to wrestling/boxing/judo, THEN you would see the same sorts of physical problems in many (most) of your WC competitors.

I think this is a pretty obvious conclusion.

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I can’t see why boxing or grappling cannot be just as fulfilling as one gets older as WC is. You can train boxing for skill and conditioning, without having ot take regular power shots to the brain regularly, just as you can with any other puglisitc art.

There are plenty of people training at boxing gyms all over the world who are not getting damaged by the practice. One could almost put forward an argument that many of these people are fitter than the average (or even many above average) WC student. Some feel differently and make calims to the contrary, but IMHO WC training is no great shakes as regards overall fitness. BJJ and boxing training are much more demanding and have a much greater training effect on strength and cardio.

Helio Gracie recently turned 90. He still wrestles, albeit not like the Renzos or Sakurabas.

My Sifu is still very fit. He trains at least as hard as anyone I’ve ever seen, as well as had a long ring career. No neural damage, but two knee and one ankle reconstructions, a damaged elbow and some significant neck problems.

Push anything too hard and you will get hurt, WC included.

I want to be boxing, wrestling, and practicing WC to an advanced age (maybe I’m there already, 49 in December). I’m still keeping up with the 20/30 year olds and going as hard as they are.

I can’t see why I can’t keep this up into my 60’s at least, though probably some things will need to change.

MP is correct.

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Notes on Seven Star’s post in brackets"

excellent post.
((Thanks- see notes on your exceptions))

I agree with everything you said here, except:

“Good wing chun is different- when done right… does not primarily depend on muscle power and has incredibly good understanding of motion, stategy and tactics. You can last longer even against folks who depend primarily on athletic skills. First rate taiji is also
long lasting and I dont mean the old folks in parks and ymca-s.”

grappling is the EXACT same way. So, Good WC isn’t different.

((yes and no. I respect grapplers and understand that they have to stay loose. But strength is more of a factor in grappling than in wc— since the goals are different. Grappling is about grappling-
wc is not))

Also, in the first paragraph, it almost sounds as if you’re saying you don’t have to keep active in order to remain proficient in WC. I could be misunderstanding you there, though.

((You misunderstood. Inactive wing chun slips away. Barring things outside of my control- I am confident that I will be better
in wing chun and self defense 10 years from now-in sticking with a great art you learn more efficient pathways and energy usage))

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But strength is more of a factor in grappling than in wc— since the goals are different.

Technique, leverage, strategy and tactics are the fundamentals of intelligent BJJ. Royce v. Severn, Royce v. Shamrock.

INTELLIGENT use of one’s attributes, including strength, is also a hallmark of both good WC and good grappling.

I want an art that gives a smaller and weaker person a chance against one bigger and stronger. So I took up BJJ.

Somehow I think Rickson’s going to be a pretty dangerous old guy.

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Some opinions/comments in brackets

how old is yuanfen? somewhere in that thread it said you are 70. i respect your opinions on this thread no matter what your age, but still i feel impressed.(foolinthe deck)

(John mentioned my age- not me and not really relevant. Unlikely that someone will ask for my ID before putting me in harm’s way.70 last August )yuanfen

but that old tired say about fight ing into your 60’s 70’s and so on is just plain stupid , if your still thinking about fighting some one at that age you need mental help not martial arts .(Ernie)

((Sometimes Ernie there is Kismet and lots of young folks who want to fight need counselling too-possibly more so))yuanfen

Typical boxing training is more demanding than typical Wing Chun training, but I would say to the degree that it is more realistic.(fajing)

((Dont care about what is typical. Wing chun training can be as demanding- depends on goals and motivation))yuanfen

I’ll say it again–and type it slowly-- IF WC had a competition format with talent depth equivalent to wrestling/boxing/judo, THEN you would see the same sorts of physical problems in many (most) of your WC competitors.(MP)

((Read it slowly. Wing chun does not necessarily need sports competitiion. Also in real interactions it has some unique conservation principles regarding damage and survival))Yuanfen

Technique, leverage, strategy and tactics are the fundamentals of intelligent BJJ. Royce v. Severn, Royce v. Shamrock.

((Sure. The context was the octagon.There are other contexts
in life.In the first match Severn who grappled at my university picked Royce up put him down on the mat and then didnt know what to do given his sporting grappling background. In the second Royce/Shamrock affair- one crude Shamrock punch changed the game. They called it a draw if memory seves. In any case Royce was not the same for the rest of the match))

INTELLIGENT use of one’s attributes, including strength, is also a hallmark of both good WC and good grappling.

((Agree))yuanfen

I want an art that gives a smaller and weaker person a chance against one bigger and stronger. So I took up BJJ.

((Respect that. Same goals but sincerely- I dont think that I need
BJJ. Wing chun is my main art…and continuing devlopment after entering that gate is very informative. But in a crisis— wing chun, my sifu or no one lese will neccessarily save me- its me and what I have learned and can use))yuanfen

Somehow I think Rickson’s going to be a pretty dangerous old guy.(Anerlich)

((Surely. Nothing but respect for Rickson- but there are many others in different arts including wing chun. In part- an empirical question.)yuanfen

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joy
((Sometimes Ernie there is Kismet and lots of young folks who want to fight need counselling too-possibly more so))yuanfen

i never said that being older means you have less to offer , quite the opposite , wisdom comes with seasoning , youthful aggression can get you killed , I have more respect for the person that has made it through there ‘’ demons of youth ‘’ and can educate me and guide by way of there experience .
but if there is one thing I have learned from my respected elders is nothing is gained by altercations , so when I hear about the older gentleman that is still getting in fights , it seems a bit silly to me , like he never grew up .
as for skill development and expression of that skill , I have no doubt that sensitivity and timing can be improved and developed until the day we drop. the last thing to go is the sense of feel .
trust me joy I got mad respect for those that have been around longer then me . in wing chun Hawkins is the oldest I have had the pleasure to hand out with , and I couldn’t begin to add up all the gems he has given me , and not to long ago I had a chance to work with inasanto and he was so smooth and powerful it was creepy .

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((Read it slowly. Wing chun does not necessarily need sports competitiion. Also in real interactions it has some unique conservation principles regarding damage and survival))Yuanfen

Not arguing this point. Arguing about longevity. It has nothing to do with the ART and everything to do with what you are doing regarding training.

Again–IF WC had a competition format with talent depth equivalent to wrestling/boxing/judo, THEN you would see the same sorts of physical problems in many (most) of your WC competitors.

The issue here is between competitors trying to be the very very best in competition and those who may be dedicated students of the art but who don’t feel a drive to be “world champs.”

There is no quality implication here. I know a few BJJers that don’t compete that are very very good. They just don’t want to and consequently don’t have to train like I do.

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There is no quality implication here. I know a few BJJers that don’t compete that are very very good. They just don’t want to and consequently don’t have to train like I do.(MP)

Understood. In wing chun also as NTC pointed out some time ago
the details of the training regimen in wing chun vary (with Ho Kam Ming group for instance) between those who want to learn the best wc for themselves and those who want to eneter a full contact match of some kind. Same body of knowledge-training regimen adjusted for task at hand.