One thing that inspired my martial arts career was some of the stories of people in their 80’s who were still doing martial arts. Who we call the greats in martial arts tended to just train in their chosen arts.
These people include Aikido’s Uyeshiba, Judo’s Jigoro Kano, Wing Chun’s Yip Man, Karate’s Funakoshi, Tai Chi’s Yang Cheng Fu, Hung style’s Wong Fei Hung , Balintawak’s Ancio Bacon, Gracie’s Helio Gracie etc.
To me what these people did are ideals for martial art. They kept it up until the day they died. When I read about Thai boxers and Western boxers, they seem to hang up the gloves at a relatively early age and after that never do much of anything in the way of fighting again. I wonder if today’s UFC/Pride/K1 fighters will have the desire to keep doing that to old
If you notice those who continue with their martial arts in to the venerable years they tend to not be so venerable, in thought, in action, in speech and with their martial arts. I want to be that way, so I can see things with greater knowledge and wisdom.
They say old man Gracie(Heilo???) is still on the mat on a regular basis. I wonder why though? Does he still need to prove something or is it out of pure enjoyment of it. Although I enjoy training and practicing my WC, I do know of other things in life that give me more pleasure. So for pleasure and leisure I would not go to the kwoon, but I will continue to train and practice WC because I know it is good for me and there is a sense of joy involved.
I can pretty well guarantee that the present day UFC/Pride/K1 champs will not be doing the same things when they are older, the body will just break down after time, and since their arts require strength,speed & stamina to succeed they will not be able to maintain their present skill(an exception may be GJJ or BJJ, more technically based arts). This does not mean they won’t be able to fight, just that their individual arts will not be nearly as effective as it was in their youth. This is what the Shaolin Masters realized and to combat this they developed the principals and concepts behind the Wing Chun system. A good Wing Chun man will get better with age not worse…
I remember seeing a Muay Thai doco with a former fighter who was in his 60’s at the time - he was still training and could still do head high kicks on the bags that hurt me on the other side of the TV screen.
You don’t see many old boxers in the gym, you still see a fair few who are trainers, referees, etc. I remember seeing a doco on an ex boxer in his 60’s who had his own home gym setup, with a special rig for his heavy bag so it would move back and forth and he’d have to chase it.
The wrestling coach at Machado BJJ HQ in Melbourne AUS was getting on the mat and terrorising his much younger students well into his seventies, he only stopped after his tragic death in a car accident.
There aren’t many sexagenarians in the ring, but then there are very few sportsmen who compete at an elite level outside the ring either. But to say older people in these sports no longer are involved or active within the sports is incorrect.
My mistake, I knew he wasn’t dead, just wrong wording.
My point was that maybe some arts are easier to keep up forever than others. One of my students finally had to pack in Judo because of injuries. So he found the Wing Chun training although not as exciting to him, a suitable substitute where he could still have some competition. Chi sau is kind of like a standup Judo for him I think.
Originally posted by sihing They say old man Gracie(Heilo???) is still on the mat on a regular basis. I wonder why though? Does he still need to prove something or is it out of pure enjoyment of it. Although I enjoy training and practicing my WC, I do know of other things in life that give me more pleasure. So for pleasure and leisure I would not go to the kwoon, but I will continue to train and practice WC because I know it is good for me and there is a sense of joy involved.
one of my judo coaches is 75. He does it for the enjoyment. He loves judo and he loves to teach. He’s on the may on a regular basis as well.
I can pretty well guarantee that the present day UFC/Pride/K1 champs will not be doing the same things when they are older, the body will just break down after time, and since their arts require strength,speed & stamina to succeed they will not be able to maintain their present skill
on a competitive level, no, they won’t be. that doesn’t mean that will not still be training, be referess, be coaches, etc. If WC were a highly competitive event, you would see similar breakdown.
They say old man Gracie(Heilo???) is still on the mat on a regular basis. I wonder why though? Does he still need to prove something or is it out of pure enjoyment of it. Although I enjoy training and practicing my WC, I do know of other things in life that give me more pleasure. So for pleasure and leisure I would not go to the kwoon, but I will continue to train and practice WC because I know it is good for me and there is a sense of joy involved.
**Why does any athlete continue his activity into old age? To prove something? No, for the same reason they became involved in it in the first place – because they enjoy it. They like surfing or mountain climbing or fighting or whatever. The champions/best of any activity do it because they love it and it becomes a huge part of their lives.
I can pretty well guarantee that the present day UFC/Pride/K1 champs will not be doing the same things when they are older, the body will just break down after time, and since their arts require strength,speed & stamina to succeed they will not be able to maintain their present skill(an exception may be GJJ or BJJ, more technically based arts). This does not mean they won’t be able to fight, just that their individual arts will not be nearly as effective as it was in their youth. This is what the Shaolin Masters realized and to combat this they developed the principals and concepts behind the Wing Chun system. A good Wing Chun man will get better with age not worse…
Originally posted by t_niehoff **More mythic nonsense.
Excuse me? Is it not true that most Martial Arts/Fighting Arts are primarily based on Speed and Strength, including boxing. WC isn’t primarily based on this, but yes it does come in handy. I tell new students that they all ready have enough speed and strength to make it all work, they just lack the coordination. As long as one does not have a physical disability and is in possession of average strength levels, then they can make it work for them easier than the other MA out there. But guess what happens, as one begins to practice they do develop more power and speed, their neural pathways are developed and their muscles learn to relax in the execution of techniques, there by they develop speed and more strength. You ever wonder how a 150lbs tennis player can hit the ball 130mph? Yes, the new material they use to make the rackets helps but it is also because they are using coordinated movement and their entire body mass to generate the ability to serve that hard. Wing Chun’s greatest strength is that it is a “SKILL” based MA, not Physically based, which means that it will increase with experience and wisdom in the art. Obviously if someone quit practicing and gave it up completely they would not improve with age, but they would not lose it all either, skills deteriorate slower. Its not that I think most fighting arts or artists do not possess skill either, but it’s the conditioning that makes those arts work, and there is nothing wrong with that, its great to be in good shape, problem is not everyone can do this or wants to do this, so then what. Do these people have no options in the MA?
You ever wonder how a 150lbs tennis player can hit the ball 130mph? Yes, the new material they use to make the rackets helps but it is also because they are using coordinated movement and their entire body mass to generate the ability to serve that hard. Wing Chun’s greatest strength is that it is a “SKILL” based MA, not Physically based, which means that it will increase with experience and wisdom in the art.
I agree completely on this. Just ad the principle of not going against the opponent force and it becomes very powerful. It is not the only way but you choose it or not!
has anyone ever seen, or touched hands with Duncan Leong? He is well into his 60’s and can throw down. If you do not develop your strength, power, flexibility and skill in your youth, you will have nothing left when you are old. There are plenty of Kung-Fu guys who in their later years, because of their consistancty of training are in superb shape, and maintain their skill level. Chang Dung Chen, comes to mind also. I was recently at a gathering of Judo and Jiu-Jitsu (Japanese) masters, and each and every one of them was a greybeard. These guys had flawless technique. They moved with effortless grace and a precision of movement that was truly a sight to behold. And they can cause real, unadulterated PAIN, with ease. Ever been on the receiving end of Wally Jay’s Small circle technique?
sihing, that’s not unique to WC. the same can be said of grappling, thai boxing, etc. power and speed are attributes that help, no doubt, but the fighter with perfect timing, distancing, etc. has in addition to the physical attributes has the greater advantage.
Sevenstar,
Like I said earlier all arts need some sort of skill to succeed, coordination, timing and such, but they don’t apply it to the same degree as Wing Chun does. In my observations of BJJ, I did see allot of skill being applied, and the JKD arts also concentrate more on skill based concepts and techniques. Thai Boxers, yeah to a degree, but lets be honest, the toughest and fastest guy will win, hittin trees and toughening drills for shins does not constitute skill attributes. I remember watching Peter Cunningham back in the early 90’s fighting a Champion Thai Boxer, and he outclassed him big time when it came to footwork and putting combinations together and such, more skill needed there than kicking a knee…And yes he won the fight.
A perfect example is when they introduce the fighters in any MMA event on pay per view or whatever. We see the fighters stats listing their weight, reach, age and most importantly STYLE. Oh we say, this will be a great match up, TYPE A style vs TYPE B style, what a contrast we say. Then the fight starts and both fighters look the same, sloppy boxing on the most part. Rarely do they apply what they have learned when stand up fighting. Vitor Belfort really put his combos together with great speed and straight attacks, similar to WC, those attacks blew people away for awhile. Just imagine if he learned WC and incorporated that to his style…
Is it not true that most Martial Arts/Fighting Arts are primarily based on Speed and Strength, including boxing.
I disagree.
Boxing is as skilful an art as any out there.
If two Wc practitioners are equal in skill, the difference in speed and strength will usually win the day, unless luck plays a hand.. The same applies here as in boxing, wrestling, BJJ, …
Just imagine if he learned WC and incorporated that to his style…
I still see Sakuraba smoking him in Pride. and there have been better kickboxers in MMA than Belfort, who still calls himself a Jiu Jitsu fighter. and a lot of Belfort’s game is conditioning, same as for any athlete.
Originally posted by anerlich I disagree.
Boxing is as skilful an art as any out there.
If two Wc practitioners are equal in skill, the difference in speed and strength will usually win the day, unless luck plays a hand.. The same applies here as in boxing, wrestling, BJJ, …
Boxing is yes a “Sweet Science” but is power based and speed based, Roy Jones JR is a perfect example of speed based and Tyson is the example of Power based. Both of these athletes had natural attributes in these areas, and trained them to the optimum. Once both of these fighters realized that there natural athleticism would not keep them on the top(Both fighters have recently realized this) they tried to rely on their boxing “skills” to which we all know today the result. Whereas Ali was a more “Skilled” based boxer, he lasted much longer than both of these fighters and had more wars than both. Now considered the best of all time by most. Yes, he did need conditioning just for the fact that he was competing professionally and with other conditioned athletes.
I agree, with two equally skilled WC practitioners the one with either the speed or strength advantage will usually win, this is about the only time you have to worry about the other guys
speed and strength…
I remember watching Peter Cunningham back in the early 90’s fighting a Champion Thai Boxer, and he outclassed him big time when it came to footwork and putting combinations together and such, more skill needed there than kicking a knee…And yes he won the fight.
I attended Cunningham’s fight against Sakad Petchindee (sp) in '91. He was an MT champ. Is that the fight you are talking about?
I’ve always admired Sugarfoot, and he won convincingly … though it was well known at the time that the MT guy had a lot of problems meeting weight, not that means much.
Oh yeah, Pete C didn’t do WC either … what a loser huh .. if he had he could still be fighting now, couldn’t he!
Though Rick Spain fought an exhibition match will Bill Wallace at the same event and knocked Bill over … ABSOLUTE PROOF that WC ROOLZ
Anerlich,
I can’t recall exactly who Pete was fighting, it was on TSN, the national sports channel here in Canada and I just happened to catch it on TV. I’m not even sure where the fight was taking place from.
I met Bill Wallace once in Thunder Bay Ontario, back in 94 or 95’(I’m loosy with dates), he was doing a seminar there and a kickboxing exibition on the Saturday night, he fought a 3 rounder with the local champ to which he demolished. I didn’t spar with him but we were doing a demo there and one of my students was photographing everything for the seminar host and I got a shot of the two of us doing the splits, nose to nose. Right when the picture was taken, at that moment, Bill put his hands around my butt and pulled it in tight, lol, it looks like we are hugging one another in that picture…He’s a funny guy.
Sihing sez:Boxing is yes a “Sweet Science” but is power based and speed based, Roy Jones JR is a perfect example of speed based and Tyson is the example of Power based. Both of these athletes had natural attributes in these areas, and trained them to the optimum. Once both of these fighters realized that there natural athleticism would not keep them on the top(Both fighters have recently realized this) they tried to rely on their boxing “skills” to which we all know today the result.
Considerable over simplification - above- IMO.Re.- Power and speed-
many different kinds of power and speed exist in activities. Roy Jones has power too (several one punch knockouts) and Tyson has speed- his outside to inside uppercuts have plenty of speed
and he one of the few who can double hook with his power hand..
Specifics of conditioning matter. Jones has been moving up and down in weight-pluses and minuses in doing that. Tyson (trains here in Phoenix a lot) got “in shape” for his last fight- but prior to that he was uneven in his conditioning commitments.
“Tried to rely…”? You usually have to rely on your skills.Not just an option. In additioning to conditioning- boxing is considerably a “mental” game though some underducated(formal schooling) boxers can at times sound inarticulate.
Strategy mattered in the last Jones and Tyson fights. Jones’ opponent had decided from the start to play an intense and persistent close up inside game…denying Jones room.. The Tyson opponent after surviving Tyson’s initial power and knowing Tyson’s tiring rate-
decided to mix it close up- and was leaning on Tysonas uch as possible tiring T out fast. Then at the end Tyson when going down twisted his knee
in the end game.
And again-not to forget-the opponents have something to say about what Jones and Tyson did or didnt do.
In addition to the nature of the opposition-The mixes that one brings to the table matters- that includes both strategy and tactics in additioning to the right conditioning and power and speed.
Originally posted by sihing Thai Boxers, yeah to a degree, but lets be honest, the toughest and fastest guy will win
No, the toughest guy with the greater skill. All thai boxers train to be tough and fast - it’s part of the training. The advantage is skill level.
hittin trees and toughening drills for shins does not constitute skill attributes. I remember watching Peter Cunningham back in the early 90’s fighting a Champion Thai Boxer, and he outclassed him big time when it came to footwork and putting combinations together and such, more skill needed there than kicking a knee…And yes he won the fight.
Happens all the time. I’ve seen several TMA who outclass their opponents skill wise get stomped in streetfights. It’s just one of those things that have no guarantee.
Then the fight starts and both fighters look the same, sloppy boxing on the most part. Rarely do they apply what they have learned when stand up fighting.
most of the guys are grapplers who have little striking training. Naturally the striking looks sloppy. Watch the guys who are trained strikers - lidell, cro cop, sak, in the old days, maurice smith… these guys show good striking skills.
Vitor Belfort really put his combos together with great speed and straight attacks, similar to WC, those attacks blew people away for awhile. Just imagine if he learned WC and incorporated that to his style…
not similar to WC, similar to boxing. had he trained in WC, he woulda been the same way. He put his techniques together like that because he was a competitve boxer. He actually thought about going pro. IMO though, he’s a great mma but would’ve gotten eaten alive as a boxer.
