form work vs running

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
[B]I think that HAS been answered by a few people here. Essentially, no. Intense form work (the vast majority of forms that is) tend to be anaerobic in activity, whereas running tends to be aerobic. Different results, really.

One of the posts points out that EVERY effective pro fighter in the world runs considerably as part of their training. [/B]

Yes, different results, but not because the forms are anaerobic, but because they train your body differently. I can do my forms aerobicly. I can take hiking to the aerobic level very easlilly. But I only run if someone is chasing me.:wink: It hurts. I have a very messed up hip, and running up any type of incline just flat our hurts. BUT. I do bike, hike and other things for my aerobic workout, because forms work the body differently. They teach your body who to keep moving a specific way for a long time. They do not teach your cardio-vascular system how to pump the blood efficiantly to all parts of they body while its under that kind of stress.

42

Repeated forms done properly will have a similar aerobic training benefit as wind sprints. I’ll give you that. :wink:

43

Greetings,

This is a fun thread because it touches on the High Intensity concepts developed by Arthur Jones. These concepts have inspired circuit trainig, HIIT, TUT, wind sprint training, the list goes on. He had already proven during the West Point Experiment that High Intensity weight training develops an aerobic component that was superior to the benefits derived from running. Yes running is great but that isn’t to say that there isn’t better.

My own experience came from training Tan Tui, twelve lines done ten times each. That was a killer. I hope I can get back to that one day. I have to add that cardio, calisthenics, basic training (punching, kicking, stancework, drills), as a foundation, were essential to making that happen. Yet, even with that foundation it was tough. I would include high intensity weight training if I was to embark on that again.

For those who need something to make contact with consider this: it has been demonstrated time and time again that boxers tire faster when they fail to make contact with their opponents when throwing punches.

mickey

44

Originally posted by SevenStar
Then why do you want it in muscle memory?

don’t poke holes in my arguments :slight_smile:

45

full contact fighting indeed drains the energies.

if you want to fight 3x3minute rounds, then you have to train 3x10 minute rounds and feel fresh after them before going for the 3x3. This fits with the idea of train high, fight low in some respects.

each solid hit you take, robs you of wind and blood flow and mental focus. With each little tick off the meter, your time to the floor shortens.

omar- 15 minutes continuous is good, but i am not certain there isn’t a lot of strategy going on there as opposed to all out and continuous tactical action.

I too can go 15 minutes, but it is burst/strategy/burst/strategy

however, in timed rounds full contact. 5x3minutes is friggin hard work. 3x3minute rounds is the standard for FCMA (full contact martial arts) with champ challenges being 5 rounds. Except in boxing where there are more rounds and less weapons used, no choking, no holds and locks, etc etc.

anyway, train hard and get your endurance up. Running training is a very different animal and much much thought and effort has gone into refinig the practice of running. don’t sell it short and use it for what it is, a cv builder extraordinaire.

it’s worth it to run a few times a week. even to your own limit. Get the right shoes and make sure you know they are right. Have your structure analyzed. Are you supinating for instance and which way and where do you need the support to correct that. etc etc.

running is highly effective, cheap, and anyone can do it so long as they gots legs that work.

46

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
Yes, running is good for cardio.
Yes, all serious fighter all use running as part of their training

Nope…

Frank Shamrock’s an elliptical crosstrainer man like myself… this was said around the time he outhustled Tito Ortiz…

There are others who don’t spend a lot of time running/jogging… they’ve been posted on this and other forums over the last couple years… not sure I’m going to search them out, but they’re out there…

You don’t have to jog 5 miles a day to be in fighting shape.

47

Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]You haven’t seen my form.

I have done plenty of 3 minute full contact rounds.

The form I do is at least as taxing. Not all forms are created equal. And depending on the level of my opponent I can keep up sparring for 10-15 minutes without a break.

I am also fairly certain that you are going to assuming for your self that my sparring is just pattycake tag and that you have also a fairly wooden concept of what “forms” are like. You are probably also vastly underestimating my ability to conserve energy in a fight.

It’s the only way for that statement to be accurate. I’m sure it matches with your personal experience of both forms and fighting. Just not mine. [/B]

Whatever.:rolleyes:

48

Originally posted by BMore Banga
You don’t have to jog 5 miles a day to be in fighting shape.

yes, you do…shuddup. :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

49

elliptical training is traing the cardio in the same way without the impact stress. It is more or less the way to run without high impact.

so, to exclude it as the “form” of training ain’t really sayin much against the idea of running, elliptically or otherwise.

some folks can’t afford gym memberships and therefore cannot access elliptical machines.

anyway…just saying, whether you do it elliptically or on the road, the essence is essentially the same. Especially when compared to forms.

Elliptical is only an alternative, not a huge difference in cv training.

50

kung lek

thought the argument here was whether forms, if done in a cardio-type fashion could be looked at as a replacement for running.

the pro-running people seemed to say that running was the only way to go.

others were more open to the idea of cardio with different mechanics as being acceptible.

you wouldn’t believe how many online people have said that elliptical crosstrainers aren’t nearly equivalent to running, even knowing that you can raise the resistance rate to anaerobic proportions.

in an earlier thread on the subject; i think the idea was put forth that the most “efficient” cardio exercise was the one that taxed the most number of muscle groups, the greatest amount (within sustainable reason), for the longest period of time.

furthermore, guys like merryprankster favor “sport specific training methods”.

cardio exercise is needed to get in fighting shape- no argument here.

I also agree with the other poster that some forms lend themselves better to being cardio replacements.

I’ve done long forms of tai chi before; while I’ve sweat, had sore muscles, and slightly elevated breathing by the end, i wouldn’t say the intensity lent itself to being a cardio replacement.

Fast wushu, some of the southern long arm, northern shaolin/tantui done at a high speed, and other “fighting set” forms done at a rapid pace with strenuous postures that make you breathe hard ARE better at lending themselves to being cardio replacements.

The problem then becomes time; as even high intensity interval work should take place over a period of AT LEAST 20 minutes (including rest rounds). If you’re doing forms instead, expect 30 to 45 minutes of back-to-back forms, alternating between medium-high and sprinting intensity.

Just to re-iterate, I think forms, done in the correct fashion, could be a more-than-sufficient form of sport-specific cardio training; and that running specifically (as an exercise) is not necessarilly required.

51

Originally posted by BMore Banga
The problem then becomes time; as even high intensity interval work should take place over a period of AT LEAST 20 minutes (including rest rounds). If you’re doing forms instead, expect 30 to 45 minutes of back-to-back forms, alternating between medium-high and sprinting intensity.

That’s the part that doesn’t happen for most people’s forms training. It doesn’t ALWAYS happen for me. But sometimes I go out there with a goal of doing my Baji at full intensity and speed 10 times. If I rest only long enough for my heart to come down out of my throat and then go at it again, it takes about 40 minutes.

52

Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]
if you want to fight 3x3minute rounds, then you have to train 3x10 minute rounds and feel fresh after them before going for the 3x3.

[/b]

Actually, if you’re going to fight three minute rounds, you absolutely /don’t/ want to train ten minute rounds - it gets you used to pacing yourself for ten minutes instead of three. Rather, you should train 10 3 minute rounds, so that you are pacing yourself correctly for three minute rounds, but also working yourself harder than you will be in the actual fight.

3x3minute rounds is the standard for FCMA (full contact martial arts) with champ challenges being 5 rounds.

Which kinds of FCMA? Muay Thai standard is 5x3 minute rounds, MMA standard is 3x5 minute rounds in the UFC, one ten minute round and two five minute rounds in Pride. UFC title matches are 5x5 minute rounds. Lower level shows vary wildly, although 3x5 is about as close to a standard as you’ll find.

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FD has paced himself correctly in training and is now well prepared to beat the correct into the ground

54

sorry, typo, i did indeed mean 10 - 3minute rounds to fight effectively for 3 - 3minute rounds.

and i stand corrected on teh matches, musta had boxing in my head when i wrote that. fcma=longer time, less rounds.

:stuck_out_tongue:

anyway, that’s what i meant

55

Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]sorry, typo, i did indeed mean 10 - 3minute rounds to fight effectively for 3 - 3minute rounds.

and i stand corrected on teh matches, musta had boxing in my head when i wrote that. fcma=longer time, less rounds.

:stuck_out_tongue:

anyway, that’s what i meant [/B]

No sweat, dude. The round thing does vary wildly in the smaller shows, anyway - I’ve been one of the sparring dummies for several of our fighters before Reality Fighting and Mass Destruction, and we’ve seen 3x5, 3x4, 3x3, 1x6, 2x4, and just about any other combination you can think of. Things are still very negotiable on the lower level shows.