Once again, pad and bagwork do the same thing, while conditioning, and with the added benefit of resistance.
As far as fighting being largely anaerobic, you’re correct. but you may have to run…
considering my regimen includes pad and bagwork already, I’d pick running over forms. For conditioning in general, even without the padwork, I’d pick running.
I am willing to wager that there isn’t a single professional fighter alive who does not run as part of his training regimen.
bag work is cardio for sure, provided it’s done properly that is, tere is a lot of namby pamby bagwork out there that really isn’t doing anything too. lol take a look next time you’re at a gym that has bags. Take a look at what some peeps are doing for bagwork. :rolleyes:
the idea of steady and constant striking and footwork around the bag really escapes some people. lol
moving in, throw a couple of shots, move out, take a rest etc does not in my opinion constitute “bag work”, get in there, hit hard, hit a lot, move, keep your hands up, move your feet and keep throwing em until your three minutes are up. take your 1 minute rest and rest, don’t walk around, don’t do something else, just rest you have another 3 minutes coming up and you’re gonna need the NRG!
Running is a huge training method that develops the heart and lungs, the blood flow, etc etc. It cannot be overlooked as a method of conditioning and endurance. To do so means you will be in for a very big fuggin surprise when your dairy twist fist method don’t work on the meathead coming at you and you will have to be in the thick for longer than the length of a 2 minute form.
Now, if you are fighting against a bunch of other people who only do forms as their cardio, then sure, you’ll be fine. But unless you are ding form after form full blast, full speed, then you really aren’t getting a lot of cardio.
I currently can complete all the forms I know in a row. It is a cardio workout for sure, but it is still not as intense as when I run 5 km (3.5miles for non metric folks) Sure I’m sweating and I need a little break after the whole and in between. Forms are better used in my opinion as what they are. a library of system techs. Once you got a form, break it down. Drill the techs on the bag, in the air and against an opponent.
But don’t sell short the simple and beautiful method of simply running.
I don’t run, i hate it, it hurts structurally- not in that good, out of breath, muscles burning kind of way.
I’ll do elliptical cross trainer (arms and legs) waaaay before I run.
High speed forms, with serious effort can be at least as good as high-intensity shadowboxing, and may be better for endurance from a sport-specific training than distance running.
A lot of fighters run; a lot don’t.
Interval training will help a lot for being able to handle a round.
Distance running will help you hold out for a while without feeling lost in a big, deep ocean.
I don’t think there’s an abolute answer, but definitely experiment and find what works for you.
But don’t sell short the simple and beautiful method of simply running
In short, I think jogging sucks.
Because you have to do it for a long time and it is a high impact exercise you end up with repetitive use injuries …like plantar fasciae injuries, knee and back injuries etc. Been there done that.
You’d be better off swimming, rowing, elliptical, stairmaster, form work, circuit training with weights…even hiking or fast walking.
Sprinting and jumproping are better because even though they are high impact they are worked over a shorter time frame.
Get out of the 70’s folks with your “healthy” jogging, whole wheat bread, bean sprouts, yogurt and way too tight shorts…
um, running training has changed quite a lot from the 70’s dude. lol
it ain’t your dads style of jogging in other words.
and it’s not exactly like you don’t sustain injuries in MA training.
I know we all try to avoid injuries from training, but anyone who trains diligently and seriously knows for trueness that you can’t miss all the buses out to hit you.
IN my opinon, running should replace your forms entirely. IF you want to live in reality. If you want to live in the introspective training sequence of a kung fu movie, then don’t bother running. and don’t take any challenges
Originally posted by Tigrentera
Fighting on the street is a largely anaerobic activity. Fights start and end quickly. You need speed, strength but not necessarily endurance.
The discussion seems to have been about ring fights. They tend to go on a bit longer.
For people who are interested;
Here is a good link to some readings on Tai Ji practice and forms.
http://qi-journal.com/Taiji.asp?-token.SearchID=Li%20Ya%20Xuan
tigrentra/ omar - but you need endurance to be prepared for a situation. If you get tired out walking a couple of blocks to your car it’s gonna be pretty hard if theres an altercation there for some reason
Originally posted by jun_erh
tigrentra/ omar - but you need endurance to be prepared for a situation. If you get tired out walking a couple of blocks to your car it’s gonna be pretty hard if theres an altercation there for some reason
True. But we’re not talking about sedentary out of shape people vs. athletic people.
When talking about martial artists we’re talking about people who are generally athletic but are looking for ways to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of there training.
Like we are
;).
Anyways, let me tell you guys an interesting story…you may have heard it before…I know SPJ will appreciate it.
It’s about Chen Fa-Ke. One of the most well known exponents of Chen Taiji in modern times.
During his time he was asked to help officiate a local Lei Tai match between various kung fu factions (in Beijing I think?).
When setting up the rules they had to decide on how long the rounds would go. Other officials were throwing out times like 2 min, 5 min, 10 min, etc.
Chen Fa-Ke chimed in and said “3 seconds.”
People looked at him like he was crazy.
One of the other officials (another martial artist, I think a wrestler) said " I don’t believe it, how can you have a match in 3 seconds?"
Chen Fa-ke said “Let me show you.”
He knocked the guy on his ass in under 3 seconds.
My point of sharing is that I think that originally TCMA training was designed with the idea of teaching you to fight in a quick and decisive way, not in an extended format.
So the training is going to be a bit different.
Not saying cardio training is worthless, just that it might not be as important to a street fighter as to a ring fighter.
Greetings,
I agree with all of the various training methods mentioned. The question was whether forms done with intensity could offer the same benefit as running. I do not think that the other aspects of training should be ignored.
Form work, depending on the form, with intensity can offer a similar benefit. Now whether there can be a carry over from intense form work to running is something that I have never tried.
mickey
Originally posted by mickey
[B]I agree with all of the various training methods mentioned. The question was whether forms done with intensity could offer the same benefit as running. I do not think that the other aspects of training should be ignored.
Form work, depending on the form, with intensity can offer a similar benefit. Now whether there can be a carry over from intense form work to running is something that I have never tried.
[/B]
I think that HAS been answered by a few people here. Essentially, no. Intense form work (the vast majority of forms that is) tend to be anaerobic in activity, whereas running tends to be aerobic. Different results, really.
One of the posts points out that EVERY effective pro fighter in the world runs considerably as part of their training.
[size=10]
Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
[B]I think that HAS been answered by a few people here. Essentially, no. Intense form work (the vast majority of forms that is) tend to be anaerobic in activity, whereas running tends to be aerobic. Different results, really.
One of the posts points out that EVERY effective pro fighter in the world runs considerably as part of their training. [/B]
[/size]
boy, did this thread grow.
Yes, running is good for cardio.
Yes, all serious fighter all use running as part of their training
basically, someone on another forum mention he uses form in place of running. I thought that was “outside of the box” application. so, I thought I’ll mention it.t goes.
doing form work has advantages of training muscle memories, going through similar motions as what you might use in a fight. No, I am not suggestion form directly translate into fight application. It does help with the structure and power-generation.
running maximize cardio benefit, but it doesn’t do the rest. of course, fighters has bag work, shadow boxing drills, sparring, etc to train those attribute.
I just want to look at this “outside of the box approach” and see how people think of it.
well, in short, I make use of all of it, though admittadly I run less, much less than pro-fighters do.
I do run though and do forms and use the heavy bag and partner training.
I don’t think that forms should be used in place of running if you are looking to get to the top of the MA game or even the top of your personal ma game.
You could likely put in a few runs a week, still practice forms and all the other good stuff, including weight training, including classical weapons etc.
Now some of you may ask “but where will i get the time?”
To that I would reply, well, you do have the rest of you life don’t you? And if you are going to be a pro fighter, then get a coach who has a regimen that works for the venue you want to be in and take it from there. Oh and buy the way, whoever that coach is, I’m willing to bet a nickel that there is running in the training course. 
Originally posted by jun_erh
tigrentra/ omar - but you need endurance to be prepared for a situation. If you get tired out walking a couple of blocks to your car it’s gonna be pretty hard if theres an altercation there for some reason
That’s silly. You are making some awfully broad assumptions about my training. I have..in the past few years…gone out and ran. Not as part of my training but because I had an uncle who liked to run and asked me along or I wanted to give it a try or there was one point when my GF was a big runner so once in a blue moon I would hit the trails with her.
It turns out, that even though I run not more than maybe once every 2 years, when I do, a 5 mile run is not a problem. I don’t get excessively winded, I don’t even pant much. Nevermind walking a couple blocks to the car. I think the reasons are several:
-My current forms practice is HIGHLY aerobic. My heart rate goes up and it is extremely difficult to not be sucking wind just half way through.
-The time that some people invest on a larger gas tank I have instead invested in a more fuel efficient car.
-I LOVE bag work.
-Sparring also helps you spar longer.
Despit the ultra bold type, Serpent is not really on target. The Baji forms can not be are incredibly aerobic the way I do them. The problem is that they are ALSO aenerobic. They are too demanding on your musculature to keep it up continuously for a long time. But what you can do, is blast through Baji the way it’s supposed to be done and then just rest long enough to be able to go at it again. Repeated training will let you get up to maybe 10 or 20 reps. My best for a single session is 10. Each run through takes about 2 minutes. That’s 20 minutes without the breaks. You can’t do it without at least brief breaks but jsut check your pulse. If it’s still racing along when you start the next rep, you are training aerobically.
Even with pro-fighters because THAT situation VERY different from a typical fight. I can last much longer than any REAL fight possible ever could. Have you EVER seen a real fight go on for half an hour? Do you get breaks every 3 minutes? Even between skilled opponents…just how long will it take before friends, police, bouncers etc arrive? How long can your average pro-fighter REALLY without stopping? That means no circling for position, no exploratory jabs, no feeling out your opponent in the first round, no looking for weaknesses. Just ATTACK!!! full strength, non-stop.
I know I can go at least the distance of my form before wind becomes a factor. ie. I can launch a continuous attack that lasts 2-3 minutes minumum.
Originally posted by WanderingMonk
doing form work has advantages of training muscle memories, going through similar motions as what you might use in a fight. No, I am not suggestion form directly translate into fight application.
Then why do you want it in muscle memory?
Originally posted by Tigrentera
[B]True. But we’re not talking about sedentary out of shape people vs. athletic people.
When talking about martial artists we’re talking about people who are generally athletic but are looking for ways to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of there training.
Like we are
;).[/b]
there are alot of MA that are out of shape. Not all schools are cardio intensive.
My point of sharing is that I think that originally TCMA training was designed with the idea of teaching you to fight in a quick and decisive way, not in an extended format.
why did it change?
I know I can go at least the distance of my form before wind becomes a factor. ie. I can launch a continuous attack that lasts 2-3 minutes minumum.
Going 2-3 minutes all out in a form does not equate to going 2-3 minutes all out in sparring/fight. The resistance of an opponent makes it much harder to do.
You haven’t seen my form.
I have done plenty of 3 minute full contact rounds.
The form I do is at least as taxing. Not all forms are created equal. And depending on the level of my opponent I can keep up sparring for 10-15 minutes without a break.
I am also fairly certain that you are going to assuming for your self that my sparring is just pattycake tag and that you have also a fairly wooden concept of what “forms” are like. You are probably also vastly underestimating my ability to conserve energy in a fight.
It’s the only way for that statement to be accurate. I’m sure it matches with your personal experience of both forms and fighting. Just not mine.