so, I am browsing a forum and some southeast asia cma guy wrote that when he fought in the tournament circuit, he used form work instead of running.
going through form work at full power and intent gives the same level of cardio-work.
nenver thought of that before. what is your view of advantage of running over hard form-work.
Is this a thread about training?
Or strategy of fighting in the ring?
I run and I do Martial Arts.
Before I started running I sparred a couple times a day and had classes that were high in cardio.
After many years, one day I fought a kickboxer. He trained hard in cardio, hard on the bag, hard in sparring and ran. He out lasted me, I could barly keep my arms up. The fight lasted a long time, past my cardio level.
Since then I changed my workouts.
I run 4 times a week and bike twice a week, I lift three times aweek. (Before I run)
The harder you work out the better off you are going to be.
Everyone is different, there are people out there who can never run, dont do forms, just spar and win. They are the exception.
There are alternatives to running, its not for everyone, some bodies cannot take the pounding on the knees.
You get back what you put in. The more effort the better off you will be.
If it is about training;
Depends on what you need;
Personally I like to swim, jump ropes etc.
Forms training may be started with several levels.
Do the moves right everytime.
In Tai Ji Lao Jia Yi Lu;
You want to do slowly and continuously to practice to be gentle (Ruo Ruan Gong).
The purpose is to practice understanding your own Jin in large circles and how to neutralize.
Lao Jia Er Lu;
You practice soft first and end hard. There are stops and go’s.
Then you move on to push hands, staff and bag works with the moves in the forms.
One may practice the same move for 45 min. And then practice against the resistence (partner or bags or other props) for another 45 min.
Originally posted by SPJ
[B]Is this a thread about training?
Or strategy of fighting in the ring?
[/B]
conditioning.
You’d probably get better responses in the Kung Fu Training and Health forum.
does it matter? it’s the same people 
I would say that running will help you practice whatever form your doing better and longer. Believe me if you go to any sort of serious martial arts training, be it lions den or shaolin area school, there is plenty of running
Greetings,
I believe that form work can deliver the goods if done with intensity. One really has to have their fitness level up to par to do forms back to back that way (running and/or wind sprints, bag work, weight training, etc., would help get you to that point); when viewed from that standpoint, form work at high intensity was and is more like integrated conditioning: putting it all together. And I believe that is the way it should be.
The basic set of Tan Tui used to be trained like that.
mickey
I would say that forms are the best.
When you learn a form, you are going through the movements and trying to prefect them, this is complented with self-defense drills and sparring, but one you can do the form with good technique, you slowly increase the speed so that you still maintain form but are working a lot harder.
For many people they do not have the time to run, swim, jump rope, bike ride and all the other stuff. That is why I believe that a complete martial art system will cover the cardiovascular aspect of fighting. If your art lacks this aspect, then it must have a reason to get around it and therefore, doesn’t need it.
My vote is that, although forms at high intensity is a good workout, weight training, running and impact conditioning are ‘better’ at improving your overall body condition.
I don’t really have all the research on hand to direct anyone to, but the overall point is that if you want to hit harder, you do strength/power/speed excercises and pound into impact bags - if you want to increase your endurance you move your body non-stop for long periods of time. The vast majority of forms are NOT going to make you stronger the way strength/power/speed training can. If you have little strength to begin with, forms work will improve your strenght, but there’s a point at which moving your own body weight is no longer enough, and there are excercises that are more focused at specifically developing strength/power/speed.
Originally posted by WinterPalm
For many people they do not have the time to run, swim, jump rope, bike ride and all the other stuff. That is why I believe that a complete martial art system will cover the cardiovascular aspect of fighting. If your art lacks this aspect, then it must have a reason to get around it and therefore, doesn’t need it.
This would be a whole different perspective - the reason why a particular individual is training in a particular martial art. There ARE a good number of martial arts practitioners out there that really aren’t into the whole fighting aspect - as contradictory as that may seem.
If you are NOT trying to MAXIMIZE your strength/power/speed/endurance/cardio development, then I’m sure forms and everything else you’re doing in the martial art of your choice is ‘good enough’ for you.
FngSaiYuk,
I agree with what you say when it comes to strength, power, and speed. The initial question was not about those attributes, it was about cardio training: forms vs running. I do not believe one should neglect those other aspects simply because one is training forms with intensity.
mickey
Everyone knows the first one to gas loses the fight. But I don’t think that CMA intended fights to last very long. Long fights come from competition. Back in the day I suspect form work was intended to give you the short duration high intensity explosive power to end the fight quickly. The exception would be battlefield requirements. Maybe some of the historians around here can comment on that aspect. I would say each form would be an individual fight. Doing multiple forms back-to-back would simulate the battle.
Waiting for your opponent to tire and then take him out is probably a more recent methedology. Maybe someone will invent a turtle style where you drop into a fetal position and weather the attack until your opponent gasses. Then you get up and beat the crip out of him. Training could consist of iron back and iron outside-of-arms-and-legs so you could withstand the initial attack.
Oh yea, iron back-of-the-head too.
running is my favorite for of cardio work, but I can’t think of any good reason why forms work, if it’s done at a fast enough pace to count as cardio work, can’t take the place of it.
Qi gong is the cardio aspect of CMA.
Zhuang Gong and back to back forms or repetititon of the same forms also give you endurance.
Yes, all schools of CMA are designed to end fight quickly.
But if you fight with multiple opponents and there are more to come, to outrun your opponent is the best strategy.
To run and to dodge are MA related, too.
To run and to dodge are MA related, too.
And that is why, I deam dodgeball the best sport ever.
Re: form work vs running
Originally posted by WanderingMonk
going through form work at full power and intent gives the same level of cardio-work.
No, I don’t think it does. an advanced level boxer / thai boxer will run about 5 miles 3-4 times per week. At what intensity and how many reps would you have to run through your forms to make it equivalent to 5 miles of running? Do you have any type of proof that states forms give the same level of work as running?
Also, forms are fairly anaerobic, so we are talking about two different types of training…
Originally posted by mickey
[B]Greetings,
I believe that form work can deliver the goods if done with intensity. One really has to have their fitness level up to par to do forms back to back that way (running and/or wind sprints, bag work, weight training, etc., would help get you to that point); when viewed from that standpoint, form work at high intensity was and is more like integrated conditioning: putting it all together. And I believe that is the way it should be.
[/B]
bagwork, padwork and sparring are integrated conditioning…
Jin in circles are called Chan Si Jin or silk reeling.
Your directions of Jin change all the time in the circle.
You may think about vertical and horizontal circles in 2 planes.
You then think of 3 dimension as circles in a sphere and a ball.
The surface of a ball may deflect many directions of forces or Jin’s.
Lao Jia Yi Lu is consisted of large frames or bigger movements or Da Jia.
You focus on the changes of directions of Jins in a circle or in a ball around you.
Your whole body is moving. You try to sense all the Jins around your whole body and limbs.
Huen Shen Si Jin.
My opinion is that form work can provide the type of cardio you need for fighting provided that you do it in the right way…however, the same can be said about running.
Jogging, IMHO is worthless to fighting…just as “jogging” through your form is.
You should train how you expect to fight.
Fighting on the street is a largely anaerobic activity. Fights start and end quickly. You need speed, strength but not necessarily endurance.
Fighting in the ring is totally different. You need aerobic endurance but you also need to be able to do quick bursts of anaerobic activity.
(Just so I don’t have to hear it…yes, training to fight in the ring can help you on the street. )
The key in any case is interval training/circuit training.
You keep a base level of cardio exertion punctuated by quick burst of high intensity exertion.
So when doing the form you would do it like this.
Do your form one time at medium/slow pace. The next time do the form as fast as you can.
Without taking a break start on your next form at a med/slow pace.
Keep this up until you are exhausted.
For running, you would want to do 1 min jog punctuated with 1 min of full out sprint.
At any rate, this kind of training is most useful to external styles. As SPJ pointed out internal training is quite different but that is because you are training the body to do different things.
