For Sal Canzonieri Re:Tan Tui

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
1

Greetings,

I was lurking over at the emptyflower last night and found your thread concerning Tan Tui. Of particular notice was your statement that the masters at the Chin Woo developed the 12 line Tan Tui that was taught there.

  • What documentation do you have for that?

  • Which masters?

  • Who contributed what?

You name dropped Wang Ziping. I have seen his Tan Tui form in the book “Wushu Among Chinese Moslems.” It does not even come close; not even in the framework does it come close.

Do please enlighten me.

mickey

2

[QUOTE=mickey;870448]Greetings,

I was lurking over at the emptyflower last night and found your thread concerning Tan Tui. Of particular notice was your statement that the masters at the Chin Woo developed the 12 line Tan Tui that was taught there.

  • What documentation do you have for that?

  • Which masters?

  • Who contributed what?

You name dropped Wang Ziping. I have seen his Tan Tui form in the book “Wushu Among Chinese Moslems.” It does not even come close; not even in the framework does it come close.

Do please enlighten me.

mickey[/QUOTE]

Wang Zi Ping was famous for his 10 Tan Tui set (not the 12) and he did two different versions, which he called Tan Tui and Tam Tui (used different characters). That book has an abbreviated version of one of his sets. I have a big book on his life and it compiles many of his sets and shows each movement of that sets. Of course the 10 tan tui is different looking than the 12, it is an entirely different style based on Cha Quan. You can’t go by the drawings to compare. But, the 12 tan tui (at least the version that is most popularly known today) is derived from the 10 tan tui via the Chin Woo school

Hua Yun Jia the founder of Chin Woo, he practiced the 10 tan tui. After he died, the Chin Woo school started teaching a single and two person 12 tan tui set, that looks mixed with other things besides 10 tan tui.

Most people are in agreement that the 12 tan tui started with the 10 tan tui as a frame to work with. And the Chin Woo school histories say this. The first row in both are the same, the rest start to change how they are done, but the are the same essentially for the first 5 rows. 10 version does them with Cha Quan flavor in the movements and 12 does it with mixed long fist flavor.

All the Chin Woo (Jing Wu) history books and set books I have, I have the whole set of anniversary books of their sets, say that they developed the 12 tan tui set there.
It’s always been said that the 12 and the two man version of the 12 are part of the main dozen sets that are Jing Wu created sets.
From what I can see the books say only that various teachers had input to the creation of the sets. The list of teachers that taught there are from eagle claw, shaolin long fist, Cha Quan, Mi Song, and others.

I think that there was some threads here years back that discussed which teacher influenced which sets there.

Here’s the Chin Woo site that gives their official history:
http://www.chinwoo.com/history.htm

Because Huo was widely admired as a Chinese national hero, a series of other masters agreed to teach at the school including Eagle Claw () master Chen Zizheng (), Seven Star Praying Mantis () master Luo Guangyu (), Xingyi () master Zhao Lianhe (), and Wu Jianquan (), the founder of Wu style Taijiquan (). Master Chao Lianhe, a master of Northern Shaolin Mizong Style became the Chief Instructor after the sudden death of Huo.
The basic curriculum drew from several styles of martial arts, giving practitioners a well-rounded martial background in addition to whatever they wished to specialize in.

During the early days of Ching Wu (Jing Mo) in Shanghai, chief instructor, Chao Lianhe developed a curriculum that became the standard Chin Woo sets (Fundamental Routines).

  1. Twelve Rows of Tan Tui (Spring Leg)
  2. Gong Li Quan (Power Fist)
  3. Jie Quan (Connecting Fist)
  4. Da Zhan Quan (Big Battle Fist - Upper & Lower)
  5. Ba Gua Dao (Eight Diagram Broadsword)
  6. Qun Yang Gun (Shepherd Staff)
  7. Wu Hu Qiang (Five Tiger Spear)
  8. Jie Tan Tui (Tan Tui Sparring)
  9. Tao Quan (Set Fist)
  10. Dan Dao Chuan Qian (Broadsword versus Spear)

Here’s the various types of tan tui (there are more than these, that are unrelated to each other and appear entirely different, such as 6 Harmony tan Tui, 14 tan tui preying mantis, 12 tong bei tan tui, etc.)

  1. Tang Dynasty. The city of Ling Qing is situated between the warring factions of the Song, Liao and Jin Courts. An infantry solider named Kun Lung Dai Shi took refuge in the Lung Tan Temple located within Ling Qing City. Becoming a Monk at this temple Kun Lung formulated the routine Tan Tui (Pond Legs) with 10 Roads. It is said that this set was created in order to counter the Liao & Jin’s superior upper body grappling skills. Ling Qing City became a major trading center due to the Canals built during the Yuan Dynasty. For this reason it is believed that Tan Tui was able to spread throughout China.

  2. Shaolin’s Tan Tui is given credit to Monk Xian Ji who while in residence at the temple in Ling Qing Tan Temple in Shandong Province during the Ming Dynasty. It is said that he traded Shaolin’s famous Lohan Fist routine for their Tan Tui routine. Also Xian Ji is said to have also added an additional 2 roads to the original 10 Road Tan Tui Routine.

  3. Chinese Muslims,are known for the fierce combat skills. They helped in the founding of the Ming Dynasty During the 13th Century. It is said that during Qi Ji Guang’s journey to suppress Japanese Pirates along China’s Coastal Cities. On this journey a Muslem by the name of ChaShagMir (aka: Chamir) fell ill due to the exhaustion and the harsh weather. His companions left him in the care of the inhabitants of a mountain village in Guan Xian County. So grateful for their care he taught his martial arts skills to the local villagers. In memory of him the called the system they practiced Cha Quan (Cha’s Fist). Tan Tui (with 28 roads) was the foundation they used to develop their system. It is said that 28 was used to signify the 28 Letters in the Arabic Language. Later this was condensed into 10 Roads. The Hui/Moslem are still today known as the best exponents of Tan Tui.

  4. Chin Woo was the first Public Gymnasium founded for the purpose of making Martial Arts training available to anyone (who could pay). The recognized founder was Huo Yun Jia, an exponent of the Mizong System. Part of this system was a version of the 10 Road Tan Tui that Huo Yun Jia demonstrated often. Due to his sudden death not many of his students had the opportunity to learn this version. Chao Lien Ho was hired to head up the organization and as part of his task he formulated a specific curriculum. While an exponent of Mizong he also had studied various Shaolin based systems as well. The first form required to be studied by beginner students is a 12 Road Tan Tui. While it is not sure where this version comes from, it has become the most popular version taught throughout the Chinese Martial Arts due to the fame of the Chin Woo.

Here’s a Chinese website that has info on the set:
http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/34466342.html

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50169

3

We published the 12

Check out our 2006 September/October issue - the Chin Woo - Huo Yuan Jia Collector’s Issue. We had Master Jimmy Wong, head of the U.S.A. Chin Woo branch, demonstrate the 12 tan tui in its entirety.

4

Hi Sal,

Thank you for getting back to me.

I am more in agreement with ngokfei that the Chin Woo set may have been simplified, not developed.

mickey

P.S. Hi Gene!!!

5

[QUOTE=mickey;870496]Hi Sal,

Thank you for getting back to me.

I am more in agreement with ngokfei that the Chin Woo set may have been simplified, not developed.

mickey

P.S. Hi Gene!!![/QUOTE]

Sure, that’s possible, but simplified from what? The original 28 Tan Tui?

It does look like a simplified version of the 10 tan tui, I agree.

But they changed the last five rows and added two more rows, and they added a two man version.
Where did they get this material from?

Logic says from the teachers there that helped develop the final version of the 12 tan tui.

Just about every tan tui system from other styles all share the first row, after that they all diverge.

Cha Quan’s Pao Quan sets in their first section have the same movements as first row of tan tui.

The tan tui itself, 10 or 12, if it comes from Moslem MA is a simplification anyways.
It groups together and makes more basic various sections from their other forms.

6

Here’s the classic 10 Tan tui (Kuoshou school):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJup-h-p_ck

Here’s the real Shaolin tan tui, same as it is done in the Shaolin Encyclopedia (Says 24 but it is only 12 different rows doubled):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zplTTFjh9KY

Here’s the Chin Woo 12 tan tui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Iz0ZP8nlSI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGJoj1RRYd4

Does the Chin Woo 12 look much more related to this 10 tan tui or to the Shaolin Tan tui?

This set is called Shaolin 12 Tan tui, in honor of Shaolin, but it is clearly the Chin Woo set, and they will tell you that it is from there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-WdX8VebqU

This is a Mizong Tan tui set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3SLaAwUBA

Another version of Cha Quan 10 Tan Tui, different branch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbXyJOE2Dhc

Here’s the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou, first section of 8 rows, for comparison:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N63rIaKKXX8

7

10 Road Mizong Tan Tui evolved into the 12 Road Chin Woo Version.

did Zhao do it alone? hard to say Were there other instructors in residence when he took over?

When was the 10 Core form curriculum put in place? Before or after other instructors arrived to teach specialized classes?

One item of not is of the 10 sets of chin Woo the Toa Kuen (Paired Fist) partner set has been told to me to be created at Chin Woo as their Kahm Na set. A probable major contributor would have been CZC of the Eagle Claw School but I believe there were 2 other instructors as well who had in;put.

8

Greetings,

When you write “most people are in agreement” and “it is generally said,” it does not mean that it is TRUE. It is just a general belief. Yet, you post in point four that that though the Chin Woo version is the most popular, no one knows where it came from. That is totally different from saying that the masters at Chin Woo developed the form. Your fourth point may be the most accurate.

Sal, you mention that Kun Lun was an infantry man. Where did he come from?

Over the years I have noticed a real effort to establish the 10 line version as the original version (ngokfei, I can’t believe you go with that - 20 pushups for you!!!). Over time this will be disproven. I will let that rest for now. :slight_smile:

Sal, I have done more than look at drawings, I have practiced. There was a period time when Tan Tui was all I had to practice. I find it strange for you to make that statement when you do that. :slight_smile:

I thank you all for the healthy discussion that did not deteriorate into the silly rants of ego.

mickey

9

None of those Tan Tui versions are the ones that Wang Ziping taught. I had a link for it but the page is now gone.

There is a book on Wushu and Moslems that has not only the 10 line Tan Tui as done by Wang Ziping and his family…but also the 20 Fist method Wang Ziping created.

10

All the Chin Woo (Jing Wu) history books and set books I have, I have the whole set of anniversary books of their sets, say that they developed the 12 tan tui set there.

Our tradition says that a Shaolin student named Ji Xiang Tan () brought
Tan Tui to Shaolin during the Ming Dynasty and that 2 sections were added to the Shaolin version and the set was named Xiang Ji Tan Tui . The 12 section Tan Tui practiced at Jing Wu is very similar to our version and I can say with certainty that it predates Jing Wu. The legend that has been past on to us has similarities to the account in the article Sal posted:
http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/34466342.html

2

  1. Shaolin’s Tan Tui is given credit to Monk Xian Ji who while in residence at the temple in Ling Qing Tan Temple in Shandong Province during the Ming Dynasty. It is said that he traded Shaolin’s famous Lohan Fist routine for their Tan Tui routine. Also Xian Ji is said to have also added an additional 2 roads to the original 10 Road Tan Tui Routine.
11

Mickey - I’m doing them now, My big body is allowing me to cheat on how low :smiley:

Most Chin Woo material I’ve come across gives credit to a temple in Shandong province as the origin of the set, but again it says it originally came from a 10 road set which was added to by a monk.

Zhao Lin Ho was an exponent of the Shaolin Bizong Style (which contained the 5 Zhan/gin = battle sets as well as a Tan Tui and if my memory serves me correctly some sets from the Gong Li style. He was also an exponent of the Mizong System.

Quite possible that he took the Shaolin version tan tui and combined it with elements of the Mizong version of tan tui.

r.(shaolin) is there a visual available of the version that you do - for comparison?

12

[QUOTE=mickey;870673]Greetings,

When you write “most people are in agreement” and “it is generally said,” it does not mean that it is TRUE. It is just a general belief. Yet, you post in point four that that though the Chin Woo version is the most popular, no one knows where it came from. That is totally different from saying that the masters at Chin Woo developed the form. Your fourth point may be the most accurate.

Sal, you mention that Kun Lun was an infantry man. Where did he come from?

Over the years I have noticed a real effort to establish the 10 line version as the original version (ngokfei, I can’t believe you go with that - 20 pushups for you!!!). Over time this will be disproven. I will let that rest for now. :slight_smile:

Sal, I have done more than look at drawings, I have practiced. There was a period time when Tan Tui was all I had to practice. I find it strange for you to make that statement when you do that. :slight_smile:

I thank you all for the healthy discussion that did not deteriorate into the silly rants of ego.

mickey[/QUOTE]

Hey, I want to know the answers just as much as anyone else.

I have no vested interest in which one came first. I don’t even like the CHin Woo sets at all.

Regardless of which come first, I’d like to learn which did really come first?

If it is the Temple in Shantong, which then went to Shaolin, who added two rows, which then was went to where?

To Chin Woo? But they say they started from Mi Zong 10 tan tui and
added 2 more rows after simplifying it.
So, that would either mean that Chin Woo 12 tan tui is not related to the Shaolin one, or that Mi Zong 10 tan tui is related to Shaolin tan tui, or even to the Long Tan temple in Shantong’s original tan tui?

Most interesting is HOW MUCH Mi Zong has in common with Cha Quan system, very very strange.

The hooked hand and the Cha Hand (insert hand) the Cha Quan system is famous for and even a 10 tan tui, the Mi Song style had also.
Could Mi Song be a major influence on the early development of Cha Quan system?

(Cha Quan system always says that their 10 tan tui is just a simplication modern developed practice set that has pieces of their other sets to create a foundational set to work from in the beginning. If so, then how is their 10 tan tui related to any others at all?
Only way is if some pieces of Cha Quan sets came from Mi Zong influence?)

13

One other point.

Jing Wu uses the character: [SIZE=“5”][/SIZE] for ‘tan’

The version that Zhitianxi does uses: [SIZE=“5”][/SIZE] for ‘tan’ (which is a traditional set but I would not say its ‘the real’ Shaolin Tan Tui)

The Cha version uses the character: [SIZE=“5”][/SIZE] for ‘tan’

We use the same character as the Cha style does: [SIZE=“5”][/SIZE]
As does the author in this post: http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/34466342.html

r.

14

Most people are in agreement that the 12 tan tui started with the 10 tan tui as a frame to work with. And the Chin Woo school histories say this. The first row in both are the same, the rest start to change how they are done, but the are the same essentially for the first 5 rows.

All the Chin Woo (Jing Wu) history books and set books I have, I have the whole set of anniversary books of their sets, say that they developed the 12 tan tui set there.

From what I can see the books say only that various teachers had input to the creation of the sets.

According to my teacher, not a Jingwu member but who lived in Shanghai in the early 20’s, and my Sigong who was already in Shanghai, during the time Huo Yuanjia was still alive, they developed a 16 section set - which looks sort of like Tan Tui and included 4 sections from Tan Tui. It wasn’t called Tan Tui but rather "Jingwu Ji Ben ". I’ve check around a bit for more information, but there is very little documentation about Jing Wu’s very early history before 1910.
r.

15

[QUOTE=r.(shaolin);871024]According to my teacher, not a Jingwu member but who lived in Shanghai in the early 20’s, and my Sigong who was already in Shanghai, during the time Huo Yuanjia was still alive, they developed a 16 section set - which looks sort of like Tan Tui and included 4 sections from Tan Tui. It wasn’t called Tan Tui but rather "Jingwu Ji Ben ". I’ve check around a bit for more information, but there is very little documentation about Jing Wu’s very early history before 1910.
r.[/QUOTE]

Liu Yun Chiao’s Wu Tang School in Taiwan teaches a 16 Row Tan Tui like set, I learned it from the Wu Tang school in NJ that was around before Master Charles Chen died.

16

Hi Sal,

I was going to bring up the late Master Charles Chen. I visited him in Flushing Queens where he was teaching at the “Y” on Northern Blvd, back in 1984. I got to see a 12 section Shaolin Tan Tui that he taught. He referred to it as the original style. It contained a lot of double heel kicks and a nice blend of straight and circular techniques. I got the feeling that he kept the Shaolin he learned closest to his heart. Then again, that was only one impression from one meeting.

mickey

17

Sal

Thats an interesting thought, where did Mizong obtain their Tan tui.

r.shaolin

your mentioning the 16 road set now makes sense to what I had been told while at the HK Chin Woo back in the early 90’s My translator simply stated that there was a training drills with16 lines but that it was replaced with the 12 Road Tan Tui.

Any clip or visual source for this routine Sal or r.shaolin?

18

[QUOTE=ngokfei;871056]Sal

Thats an interesting thought, where did Mizong obtain their Tan tui.

r.shaolin

your mentioning the 16 road set now makes sense to what I had been told while at the HK Chin Woo back in the early 90’s My translator simply stated that there was a training drills with16 lines but that it was replaced with the 12 Road Tan Tui.

Any clip or visual source for this routine Sal or r.shaolin?[/QUOTE]

Hmm, MiZong was said to exist around the time of Song dynasty start, either right before or right after, by its own legends.
People stating hearing about it sometime during the later Song era, and then much more in the Ming times.
It traveled from Henan Shaolin area to Shandong province by the time that Muslim martial arts were transfered to that area as well.

Muslim Martial Arts come from something they called JiaZi Quan (frame boxing), which they date back to the Tang dynasty, since Chinese Muslims were heaving always in the Chinese military.

Misong has a Jiazi set.

Misong has elements of Tai Zu Chang Quan, Lao Hong Quan, and other unknown martial arts. One of them is based on Ape Monkey Boxing.

Yan Qing Quan is a branch of Misong, just another name for the same thing, but it branched off really early, so it is a different linage only.

Yan Qing Quan has a Tai Zu Quan set that they do.
Mi Song and Yan Qing share the cha shou and hooked hand movements (hooked hand movements also found in Yue Jia Quan of Yue Fei as well, which is from late Southern Song era)

Shantong Cha Quan system says that they created the Tan Tui sets in Ming dyansty to create an easy to learn foundational series, based on rows from their other sets in their system.

But there is this Shandong Long Tan Temple that has their own Tan Tui set.

That’s the puzzle pieces!

Which came first? it might be able to be traced, if someone can see “who taught whom what, when, and where”.

19

[QUOTE=ngokfei;871056]Sal

your mentioning the 16 road set now makes sense to what I had been told while at the HK Chin Woo back in the early 90’s My translator simply stated that there was a training drills with16 lines but that it was replaced with the 12 Road Tan Tui.

Any clip or visual source for this routine Sal or r.shaolin?[/QUOTE]

I suspected that was the case.

The purpose of these sets was to teach beginners basics, so the idea of them dropping this set in favor of Tan Tui makes sense to me as well. Although the first part of the 16 section set is not unlike tan tui, (sections 1, 4, 8, 10); sections 9, 12, 13, 14, 15 are advanced combos that beginners would have a hard time with. As well the length of the set make for a hard drill even for someone in shape. The way the set is done is back and forth for each section - making for a 32 section set.
Sorry no clips.
r.

20

[QUOTE=r.(shaolin);871190]I suspected that was the case.

The purpose of these sets was to teach beginners basics, so the idea of them dropping this set in favor of Tan Tui makes sense to me as well. Although the first part of the 16 section set is not unlike tan tui, (sections 1, 4, 8, 10); sections 9, 12, 13, 14, 15 are advanced combos that beginners would have a hard time with. As well the length of the set make for a hard drill even for someone in shape. The way the set is done is back and forth for each section - making for a 32 section set.
Sorry no clips.
r.[/QUOTE]

I learned that form and it was just like that, very hard to master.
Master Chen said that most people forget it soon after testing for rank when to start to learn all the other sets (we learned Tang Lang Shou and Li Pi next).

Well, I did forget most of it, I’d like to see it again some day. It was a frustrating form, kinda boring and really difficult near the end rows as well.
Wonder where it originates from, besides just “Jin Wu” or Wu Tang school.