For Sal Canzonieri Re:Tan Tui

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
21

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;870959]Hey, I want to know the answers just as much as anyone else.

I have no vested interest in which one came first. I don’t even like the CHin Woo sets at all.

Regardless of which come first, I’d like to learn which did really come first?

If it is the Temple in Shantong, which then went to Shaolin, who added two rows, which then was went to where?

To Chin Woo? But they say they started from Mi Zong 10 tan tui and
added 2 more rows after simplifying it.
So, that would either mean that Chin Woo 12 tan tui is not related to the Shaolin one, or that Mi Zong 10 tan tui is related to Shaolin tan tui, or even to the Long Tan temple in Shantong’s original tan tui?

Most interesting is HOW MUCH Mi Zong has in common with Cha Quan system, very very strange.

The hooked hand and the Cha Hand (insert hand) the Cha Quan system is famous for and even a 10 tan tui, the Mi Song style had also.
Could Mi Song be a major influence on the early development of Cha Quan system?

(Cha Quan system always says that their 10 tan tui is just a simplication modern developed practice set that has pieces of their other sets to create a foundational set to work from in the beginning. If so, then how is their 10 tan tui related to any others at all?
Only way is if some pieces of Cha Quan sets came from Mi Zong influence?)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=ngokfei;871056]Sal

Thats an interesting thought, where did Mizong obtain their Tan tui.

[/QUOTE]

During the Qing Dynasty, Sun Tong studied with a Shaolin trained teacher named Zhang.
r.

22

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;870959]Hey, I want to know the answers just as much as anyone else.

I have no vested interest in which one came first. I don’t even like the CHin Woo sets at all.

Regardless of which come first, I’d like to learn which did really come first?

If it is the Temple in Shantong, which then went to Shaolin, who added two rows, which then was went to where?

To Chin Woo? But they say they started from Mi Zong 10 tan tui and
added 2 more rows after simplifying it.
So, that would either mean that Chin Woo 12 tan tui is not related to the Shaolin one, or that Mi Zong 10 tan tui is related to Shaolin tan tui, or even to the Long Tan temple in Shantong’s original tan tui?

Most interesting is HOW MUCH Mi Zong has in common with Cha Quan system, very very strange.

The hooked hand and the Cha Hand (insert hand) the Cha Quan system is famous for and even a 10 tan tui, the Mi Song style had also.
Could Mi Song be a major influence on the early development of Cha Quan system?

(Cha Quan system always says that their 10 tan tui is just a simplication modern developed practice set that has pieces of their other sets to create a foundational set to work from in the beginning. If so, then how is their 10 tan tui related to any others at all?
Only way is if some pieces of Cha Quan sets came from Mi Zong influence?)[/QUOTE]

During the Qing Dynasty, Sun Tong studied with a Shaolin trained teacher named Zhang.

There hase been a connection with MiZong and Shaolin for a longtime.

r.

23

One of my teachers from Guangdong province sais that routines like tantui, changquan, tonbgei, etc transcend arts of various styles! The serves as training routines and are not speciifc for any art. It seems that each art has its own tantui that teaches speciifcs related to the ‘specialized’ style.

Difference provinces/groups have their own version and develop the training/application accordingly. Like islamic LongFist, islamic xingi, islamic tantui..
islamic shuaijiao…

24

[QUOTE=r.(shaolin);871745]During the Qing Dynasty, Sun Tong studied with a Shaolin trained teacher named Zhang.

There hase been a connection with MiZong and Shaolin for a longtime.

r.[/QUOTE]

MiZong and Shaolin, yes, always has been mentioned by either side that they are connected.

But what about Cha Quan system and MiZong?

So many martial arts from Shandong seem to be very much like MiZong for many reasons.

25

I was asleep but was woken up…

  • Mizong/Yanqingquan does not traditionally have Tantui, these were added later and did not resemble the Jingwu set.
  • Jingwu obtained Tantui from Zhao Lianhe () who was not a Mizong/Yanqingquan practitioner. Set is as below:
  • Tantui exact origins have many theories from both the religious (Moslem) to the Shandong and the shaolin vogue....irrespectively the prominence in Moslem styles and the resemblance to the row concept is a general depiction.
  • The connecting pieces to Chaquan and Mizong/Yanqingquan are through Liuhequan, this only affected certain branches of Chaquan and Mizongquan such as the Zhang styles but not so much Li styles of Chaquan.
  • Wan Laisheng's or Ziranmen Liuhequan is a derivative but is not as encompassing as the parent Liuhequan.
  • Both Liuhequan and Chaquan are Moslem (Huizu) arts and the Tantui are part of their practices. Thus the saying "" - From Nanjing to Beijing, Tantui came from the Religious (Moslem) sect
  • The concepts of roads along the lines of Tantui are eminent aspects of Moslem Liuhequan this includes Tantui, Xinglong and Zachui as examples.
  • Mizong/Yanqingquan was originally a mix of styles and therefore it contains many elements of others within, also absorbing further bits through various generations. The core though is still held.

Best Regards
Wu Chanlong

26

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;871888]

  • Mizong/Yanqingquan does not traditionally have Tantui, these were added later and did not resemble the Jingwu set.
  • Jingwu obtained Tantui from Zhao Lianhe () who was not a Mizong/Yanqingquan practitioner. Set is as below:
  • Tantui exact origins have many theories from both the religious (Moslem) to the Shandong and the shaolin vogue....irrespectively the prominence in Moslem styles and the resemblance to the row concept is a general depiction.
  • The connecting pieces to Chaquan and Mizong/Yanqingquan are through Liuhequan, this only affected certain branches of Chaquan and Mizongquan such as the Zhang styles but not so much Li styles of Chaquan.
  • Wan Laisheng's or Ziranmen Liuhequan is a derivative but is not as encompassing as the parent Liuhequan.
  • Both Liuhequan and Chaquan are Moslem (Huizu) arts and the Tantui are part of their practices. Thus the saying "" - From Nanjing to Beijing, Tantui came from the Religious (Moslem) sect
  • The concepts of roads along the lines of Tantui are eminent aspects of Moslem Liuhequan this includes Tantui, Xinglong and Zachui as examples.
  • Mizong/Yanqingquan was originally a mix of styles and therefore it contains many elements of others within, also absorbing further bits through various generations. The core though is still held.

Best Regards
Wu Chanlong[/QUOTE]

THANKS! That clears up a lot of things I was wondering about! Cool.

Yes, Li style Cha Quan looks a lot different, all three main branches look a lot different to me, they share the same set names, but their sets have many different movments from each other.

Sal

27

Sorry of this is repeating anything I missed.

Mizong was Huo Yuanjia’s style sure.

I live in Shanghai and have had access to the photos and records in the Jingwu society here, also to teacher Bao Wenguang of Eagle Claw who’s teacher, Bao Yixiong, was a Chen Zizheng student.

According to this info, the 10 basic forms were derived from either Northern Eagle Claw or Er Lang Men.

Zhao Lian He is listed as teaching 10 basic forms and for his own style “Er Lang Men”.

As for forms with the name Tan Tui, loads of styles have them. I have recently made a video that includes part of the Chaquan Tantui being taught in Shanghai here:

http://www.kungfuology.com/kungfuology/2008/06/vidcasting-zhongshan-park-kung.html

It’s Zhongshan Park Pt Two , right near the beginning.

28

Lest someone misunderstand this and make assumptions that aren’t correct:

I’ve been practicing and learning CMA since 1975.

All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.

So, it’s not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.

I may show it to you via a video, but it’s not videos I am comparing, it’s real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.

29

[QUOTE=Redfish;871920]Sorry of this is repeating anything I missed.

Mizong was Huo Yuanjia’s style sure.

I live in Shanghai and have had access to the photos and records in the Jingwu society here, also to teacher Bao Wenguang of Eagle Claw who’s teacher, Bao Yixiong, was a Chen Zizheng student.

According to this info, the 10 basic forms were derived from either Northern Eagle Claw or Er Lang Men.

Zhao Lian He is listed as teaching 10 basic forms and for his own style “Er Lang Men”.

As for forms with the name Tan Tui, loads of styles have them. I have recently made a video that includes part of the Chaquan Tantui being taught in Shanghai here:

http://www.kungfuology.com/kungfuology/2008/06/vidcasting-zhongshan-park-kung.html

It’s Zhongshan Park Pt Two , right near the beginning.[/QUOTE]

Er Lang Men is a type of Fanzi Quan, which is basically what Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou is too.

Hence maybe where there is some commonality seen, everything is drawing from the same roots?

30

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;872186]Er Lang Men is a type of Fanzi Quan, which is basically what Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou is too.

Hence maybe where there is some commonality seen, everything is drawing from the same roots?[/QUOTE]

Sal,

Erlang Men is actually very different from Ba Fan Shou…and is a large system on its own etc. I presume you have not seen the Erlang Men system but rather a form or so that is called Erlang of which there are many within other styles.

I posted some clips of Erlang a while back such as the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQNnQ2JVMs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQNnQ2JVMs&feature=related

Regards
Wu Chanlong

31

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;872441]Sal,

Erlang Men is actually very different from Ba Fan Shou…and is a large system on its own etc. I presume you have not seen the Erlang Men system but rather a form or so that is called Erlang of which there are many within other styles.

I posted some clips of Erlang a while back such as the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQNnQ2JVMs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQNnQ2JVMs&feature=related

Regards
Wu Chanlong[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I was thinking of Er Lang Quan, not Er Lang Men.
The Er Lang Quan I was thinking of was part of the material that General Zhao taught in Hebei area, along with other stuff he taught such as Jin Gang Chui, and Fanzi Chuo Jiao material.

Looking at those Er Lang Quan sets on youtube, you can see some kind of similarity to movements also seen in Yan Qing / MiSong and also Cha Quan / Tan Tui.

Why are they so similar? At least on the surface?

But, there also is a resemblance to Fanzi too. Again, at least on the surface.

What’s the history of Er Lang Men system?

Not all Er Lang Quan sets are from Er Lang Men system.
Same way that many styles have a Wu Song Breaks Manacles set.

32

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;872514]Thanks, I was thinking of Er Lang Quan, not Er Lang Men.
The Er Lang Quan I was thinking of was part of the material that General Zhao taught in Hebei area, along with other stuff he taught such as Jin Gang Chui, and Fanzi Chuo Jiao material.

Looking at those Er Lang Quan sets on youtube, you can see some kind of similarity to movements also seen in Yan Qing / MiSong and also Cha Quan / Tan Tui.

Why are they so similar? At least on the surface?

But, there also is a resemblance to Fanzi too. Again, at least on the surface.

What’s the history of Er Lang Men system?

Not all Er Lang Quan sets are from Er Lang Men system.
Same way that many styles have a Wu Song Breaks Manacles set.[/QUOTE]

Actually, Erlangquan and Jingangquan sets are actually differently featured to the other aspectis of Chuojiao …so you should be careful with that.

The Beijing Chuojiao fanzi sets are also not really Bafanquan as much as the singular sets of chuojiao that were renamed, again be careful with nomenclature.

The similarities of Yanqing, Erlang etc…is that they have all influenced one another a different stages of their evolution. No real resemblance to Fanzi …unless your surface is very shallow but then everything becomes the same…

History of Erlang will post later but there are offshoots of northern type of Shaolin in some literature.

and Yes not all erlangquan sets are from erlangmen so be careful to not mix them up…

Cheers,
Wu Chanlong

33

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;872531]Actually, Erlangquan and Jingangquan sets are actually differently featured to the other aspectis of Chuojiao …so you should be careful with that.

The Beijing Chuojiao fanzi sets are also not really Bafanquan as much as the singular sets of chuojiao that were renamed, again be careful with nomenclature.

The similarities of Yanqing, Erlang etc…is that they have all influenced one another a different stages of their evolution. No real resemblance to Fanzi …unless your surface is very shallow but then everything becomes the same…

History of Erlang will post later but there are offshoots of northern type of Shaolin in some literature.

and Yes not all erlangquan sets are from erlangmen so be careful to not mix them up…

Cheers,
Wu Chanlong[/QUOTE]

ok, well, it woudl eb very cool of you to post some kind of history of Er Lang Men, and also something outlining what the different fanzi / chuo jiao styles are and so forth, something that will help get one’s bearings.

Also, what is General Zhao’s Jingangquan like?

34

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;872183]Lest someone misunderstand this and make assumptions that aren’t correct:

I’ve been practicing and learning CMA since 1975.

All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.

So, it’s not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.

I may show it to you via a video, but it’s not videos I am comparing, it’s real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;872183] ok, well, it woudl eb very cool of you to post some kind of history of Er Lang Men, and also something outlining what the different fanzi / chuo jiao styles are and so forth, something that will help get one’s bearings.

Also, what is General Zhao’s Jingangquan like?[/QUOTE]

In terms of Chuojiao this has been outlined in the below
http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/lineage.html

and a smaller treatise on Beijing Chuojiao Fanzi as well below:
http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/beijing.html

Regarding Jinggangquan/chui, the reason it is called ‘jinggang’ as commonly known by all of us that practice it in Chuojiao (which are only a few of the older lines) is because it focuses on the 5 hardnesses into one. This principle is to provide structure which is similar to its sister set of Liuhegen. Whilst later sets have different focuses.

Erlangmen is a completely different thing and will appear on the website sometime in early 2009.

But I do not get it, if you had commented does that not mean that you studied them before and would know such things !

Kind Regards,
Wu Chanlong

35

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;872636]In terms of Chuojiao this has been outlined in the below
http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/lineage.html

and a smaller treatise on Beijing Chuojiao Fanzi as well below:
http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/beijing.html

Regarding Jinggangquan/chui, the reason it is called ‘jinggang’ as commonly known by all of us that practice it in Chuojiao (which are only a few of the older lines) is because it focuses on the 5 hardnesses into one. This principle is to provide structure which is similar to its sister set of Liuhegen. Whilst later sets have different focuses.

Erlangmen is a completely different thing and will appear on the website sometime in early 2009.

But I do not get it, if you had commented does that not mean that you studied them before and would know such things !

Kind Regards,
Wu Chanlong[/QUOTE]

Never said I studied these two particular sets.
I’m talking about the sets that I have written articles on in the past and currently, that I have been researching the origins of.
History wise, other styles and sets seem to cross over into areas that I am researching, so that’s why they come up and I comment on them.
Thanks.

Is this JinGang Ba shi set anything like the JinGang Chui set from the Chuojiao Fanzi stuff?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XO85ewT6Ik

(****! What is the best name to use for the entire system that General Zhao taught without getting it confused with the Beijing style of the same name?)

36

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;872688]Never said I studied these two particular sets.
I’m talking about the sets that I have written articles on in the past and currently, that I have been researching the origins of.
History wise, other styles and sets seem to cross over into areas that I am researching, so that’s why they come up and I comment on them.
Thanks.

Is this JinGang Ba shi set anything like the JinGang Chui set from the Chuojiao Fanzi stuff?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XO85ewT6Ik

[/QUOTE]

No Jinggang Bashi is different thing, the most common Jinggang Bashi is that of Tianjin from Master Shi Yushan (), the set was assimilated into a few other styles like Bajiquan (Both Huo and Li lineages).

fyi…the names Er Lang, Jin Gang, Ba Wang etc are used regularly as they are like saints, deities or warriors of heaven type legends…

Chuojiao Jingangquan/chui is difficult to find good representation:

There is a clip of one of my students a few years ago after having just learned the set so the performance a bit poor is not the best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PcYSlC4wPs&feature=related

also version by An jiyong, seemingly different but within there are some related techniques and that is because it was re-odered/sequenced for the filming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QwTWPxF9Yg&feature=related

Both are only a very small part as the set is quite long.

The issues is that Zhao Canyi did not really teach all alone everywhere, sometimes there were other teachers and troops which confuses the issue :-)…
Naming, we just apply the names according to lineages such as explained in previously advised http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/lineage.html.

37

Oh and Bafanmen is different yet again:

EARLY PERIOD

  1. Shandong - Wang Zhiyuan (End of Ming Dynasty, Wanli period)
  2. Henan Kaifeng - Sun Yuenan
  3. Yishanzhen - Zhang Qiu
  4. Shandong Zhangqiu - Ma Huihui (Important in the development of the style, the
    Zhangqiu Liutanggen set is supposed to be his development)
  5. Shandong Dongchangfu - Ma Yangjiu
  6. Hebei Hejianfu - Wang Xuejun and Wang Xuejie

GAOYANG BRANCH

  1. Wang Xuejun passed on the skill to Wang Zhiguo, Zhu Xiaode and Chen Qingming
  2. Hebei Gaoyang - Wang Zhiguo passed on the skills to his son Wang Zhanao, Zhou Xunde, Han Luma and Yang Shenjie
  3. Zhou Xunde passed it onto Wang Yongxun, Zhang Dongling, Wang Lanting and Zhou xuande
  4. Wang Zhanao passed it onto Zhang Jingtian, Wang Zhongli and Xu Zhaoxiong amongst others and exchanged with Duan Yonghe and Duan Yongqing
  5. Zhou Xiande passed on to Zhou Yuyang, Ma Jingshan, Li Shuting and Li Xiang.

DONGBEI BRANCH

  1. Xu Zhaoxiong studied with Wang Zhanao (or Duan Yonghe) the style and then taught Hao Mingjiu and Yang Junfeng who then passed the art on in Shenyang, Liaoning (Dongbei) which in later generations became Dongbei Fanziquan.

  2. Yu Boqian studied with the ‘San Lao’ of Dongbei. Fanzi Masters Hao Mingjiu and Yang Junfeng and Chuojiao expert Hu Fengshan. Master Yu was instrumental in establishing Dongbei Fanziquan as a key branch.

XIONGXIAN AND SUNNING BRANCH

  1. Wang Xuejie taught Hebei Xiongxian - Li Gongran

  2. Li Gongran was a key figure in Sunning Bafanquan since the lineage of entering into Sunning commences from his disciples. The set “liahuanjiao jishou” of the style is supposed to have been his development. Li Gongran taught quite a few disciples such as Li Gengyun, Guo Yindong, Dong Xianzhou, Facheng, etc..but the two most prominent were his son Li Erlou and Sunnning County’s Zhaohuangzhuang’s Feng Shengyuan. These two became responsible for the development and spread of the style.

  3. Feng Shengyuan in Sunning then passed the style to Sunning Dongbozhuang - Li Jingting

  4. Li passed it onto his son - Li Xiao and disciples - Yan Huitu, Yan Shouchen, Xu Fengshan and more.

  5. The next generation included Li Dechuan (from Beijing Desheng Biaojue [Desheng Security Bureau]), Guo Qixun, Zhang Laolian, Li Laoqun and others

  6. Li Erlou passed on the skill to Sunning - Yu Laobo

  7. Yu passed on to Bian Chunchuan (Fengtian Dexun Secruity Logistics Bureau)

  8. Bian Chunchuan passed it on to his family and disciples such as Bian Wanlin, Bian Faxing, Zhou Shihao and Xu Fengshan

LIANQUAN - YINGZHAOFANZI

  1. Facheng taught elements of Fanzi to Liu Shijun called Lianquan, who then combined with Yingzhao Chin-na (or Yue Shi Sanshou).

  2. Liu Shijun taught Liu Chengyou, Liu Dekuan, Xu Liu, Ji Zixiu, Ji De, Li Zhengsheng and others

  3. Liu Chengyou taught Liu Fameng, Liu Zhanwu and Chen Zicheng who became the key propagators of Yingzhaofanziquan.

  4. Liu Dekuan studied Bafanshou or lianquan with Xu Liu and then Liu Shijun, he also studied Liuhequan with Li Fenggang and Tian Chunkui as well as Baguazhang with Cheng Tinghua and Taijiquan with Yang Luchan, and created many subsets which were taught to some of his students.
    Since Bafanmen is so widespread only the key lineages have been outlined above.

Please note that many Bafanquan/BaShanfan lineages commence with Li Gongran as first generation. Thus 7th generation would refer to 14th generation in the numbering above.