A more centered, natural, neutral stance. In fencing, the lunge is not a position you maintain after the lunge. For striking, really the sme, with a little less urgency.
This. The stance is where you end up, not where you start from.
Fighting from a Horse stance
[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1126901]A more centered, natural, neutral stance. In fencing, the lunge is not a position you maintain after the lunge. For striking, really the sme, with a little less urgency.
Taixuquan99 , you have your own way of facing your opponent
right ? So I have my own too , the way I do it is I let the opponent ,
attack me first , then from there I retaliate against the opponent .
I would just stand in a regular way . What I really meant what that ,
my opponent throws a right straight punch to my face area . I block
with my left open hand while I lunge into my opponent using the left
heel to push off , to deliver the power directly into the opponent .
After I do the lunge , my opponent is long gone and finnished ,
already , so why would I want to repeat the samething for ? And ,
plus I ' ve experiemented with this technique already , it has worked ,
for me .
If you use bow as a ready stance in striking, your opponent pretty much knows your forward momentum is extremely limited, to about a half step, or you must risk switching lead feet in the face of an opponent, which, if you don’t have any sort of grip on them, is a high risk. I could see bow as a ready in some grappling, since any but the most predictable motion requires you control your opponent’s upper body if you are in bow as a ready stance, except grappling really isn’t a range where “ready stance” applies to anything but competition formats.
Okay , did you ever study and research other martial arts systems ?
I did , I can stay in a short bow and arrow stance , lets say the
opponent throws a right straight punch to my face area , I ' m in my
right bow and arrow stance with my right hand as the lead hand , my
left hand my rear hand . I would stop the punch with my lead hand ,
from there I would trap his right hand with my left hand , while doing
that throw a right back fist punch to the right side of the face . If he
blocks my right , I would create what we call HIA
( hand immobilization attack ) with my left hand . I ' m using a left short
bow and arrow stance . Besides using the technique I just mentioned ,
if my opponent tends to use other striking techniques against me , I
still move to the right or any direction , even step forward or
backwards depending on what my opponent wants to do . If the
opponent wants to grapple with me either the upperbody area or
low body area , he can , I can still deal with him . If my opponent
wants to telegraph my moves he can , I just be deceptive .
Power is only one issue. A ready stance requires mobility.
There is internal power , physical power . You need power to get
out of your opponents grappling move should you get trapped .
And you also need power to hurt your opponent . So you need to
weight train to develop physical power , and internal power , chi
kung or tai chi .
I’m not familiar with a branch of fencing that considers the lunge a ready stance. Even if the rear foot is on the heel, this only allows a half step further without stepping through and changing leads, that half step has uses, but if your opponent knows you are limited in a direction, and is at all competent, that half step is not likely to be something you’ll get the opportunity to use.
In JKD we do use the lunge , instead of using a sword we use the ,
right or left punch , same thing with the lunge we can use the right
or left short bow and arrow stance . There is kendo ( japanese
fencing ) Western fencing . It really does ' nt matter , no matter how
the person attacks me , I still can move into any direction I want .
If the person steps forward to attack me , I can still stpe to the side ,
and still move in , even if I infront of the person , I can step back to
avoid the attack , and move in again .
I’m not arguing against the use of bow, I’m saying it’s not a great ready stance, I still think that, but I’m curious what art you say uses the bow as a ready stance. My guess would be branches of kendo where one is trying to draw an attack, but my knowledge of kendo is limited, I do not know that branches of kendo act5ually use bow as a ready stance[/QUOTE]
I 'm not arguing against the bow and arrow stances or with you ,
either , I asked you too , if the bow and arrow stance is ' nt a great ,
stance to use , then what ? You told me neutral position , does that
mean standing position ? Well , I would face my opponent with the
same bow and arrow stance ( the short ) . To me overall it does ' nt
what stances you ' re in , the attack is just going to come at you ,
and you better be ready .
[QUOTE=lance;1129652]I’m not arguing against the bow and arrow stances or with you, either , I asked you too , if the bow and arrow stance isnt a great , stance to use , then what ? You told me neutral position , does that mean standing position ? Well , I would face my opponent with the same bow and arrow stance ( the short ) . To me overall it doesn’t what stances you ’ re in , the attack is just going to come at you , and you better be ready .[/QUOTE]
Neutral weighted. Bow is more like a lunge, forward weighted. The opponent, if they have skill, is attacking based on what will succeed on the circumstances they see, and being all forward or all back weighted means they have an easier job picking the right attack, because either you have severely limited options in moving forward, or in moving backward.
Again, I’m not familiar with any striking style that uses a lunge type stance as a ready stance, kung fu included.
Fighting from a Horse stance
[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1129738]Neutral weighted. Bow is more like a lunge, forward weighted. The opponent, if they have skill, is attacking based on what will succeed on the circumstances they see, and being all forward or all back weighted means they have an easier job picking the right attack, because either you have severely limited options in moving forward, or in moving backward.
Again, I’m not familiar with any striking style that uses a lunge type stance as a ready stance, kung fu included.[/QUOTE]
Okay , you and me are facing eachother , I use a boxing type of on guard position .
With both of my fists in a fighting posture . We ’ re both facing eacother , the
minute you make a move , I just interrupt your attack with my attack and at the
sametime I just penetrate through you , as I step into you with my right leg .
Taxiquan , even when you reply to my thread topic , again you ’ re talking about
lunge , the opponent is going to fight you his way , so I ’ ll fight him my way .
And in my thread topic reply to your post , I did mention what combat arts uses ,
the lunge as an attack . the way you write your post tells me that you really
don ’ t know martial arts or other type of combat arts . Maybe you don ’ t know about martial arts in general or other combat arts in general , that ’ s why you stick to one question have me give you the answer yeah ! About what to do if this happens or that happens . But it won ’ t work this way . You really need to be
street oriented and ready .
Caveat:
Only read the title…So sorry if this is irrelevant but…No one fights from a horse stance - it’s not a fighting stance nor what it is used for. There are transitions and moves that sometime you will use a horse in. If this is another lame attempt at mma vs tcma die troll die. If not, then I am here and will be privy to all that comes after this post - just cuz I am currently lazy (read: just started a new job) and looking forward to hearing your views.
Figthing from a Horse Stance
[QUOTE=Northwind;1130347]Caveat:
Only read the title…So sorry if this is irrelevant but…No one fights from a horse stance - it’s not a fighting stance nor what it is used for. There are transitions and moves that sometime you will use a horse in. If this is another lame attempt at mma vs tcma die troll die. If not, then I am here and will be privy to all that comes after this post - just cuz I am currently lazy (read: just started a new job) and looking forward to hearing your views.[/QUOTE]
Northwind , no problem , but we were ’ nt talking about fighting from a horse stance , but like what you were mentioning in your thread post transitioning . And we were ’ nt talking about MMA VS TCMA either , we were mostly talking about street figthing or fighting where no rules are involved . And you just started a new job and lazy it happens to everybody , so no problem . Well , you can read our posts , so that ’ s what we were talking about .
[QUOTE=lance;1130076]Okay , you and me are facing eachother , I use a boxing type of on guard position .
With both of my fists in a fighting posture . We ’ re both facing eacother , the
minute you make a move , I just interrupt your attack with my attack and at the
sametime I just penetrate through you , as I step into you with my right leg .
Taxiquan , even when you reply to my thread topic , again you ’ re talking about
lunge , the opponent is going to fight you his way , so I ’ ll fight him my way .
And in my thread topic reply to your post , I did mention what combat arts uses ,
the lunge as an attack . the way you write your post tells me that you really
don ’ t know martial arts or other type of combat arts . Maybe you don ’ t know about martial arts in general or other combat arts in general , that ’ s why you stick to one question have me give you the answer yeah ! About what to do if this happens or that happens . But it won ’ t work this way . You really need to be
street oriented and ready .[/QUOTE]
Since the entirety of what you and I have been talking about is the bow stance as a ready stance, and since it’s not a good ready stance for striking in most cases because, if you’re opponent is equal in skill to you, and if he is using a more neutral stance, he has more options, you less, you haven’t managed to “teach” me anything.
Bow stance is, in striking, in effect, a lunge. If you are in bow, you are severely limited in your forward movement, even a high bow, to, at best, a half step forward without changing facing, which is a bad plan once striking is happening, but contact and clinching are not secured. If the opponent is in front of you, using his range, and especially if they have some reach advantage, they can hit you and outpace your forward movement, because you’ve picked the one stance that, as a ready stance, makes you move forward slower and much less distance than an opponent can move backwards or even at an angle backwards.
The bow in kung fu is not a good ready stance against an equal in striking. Nor have I seen any evidence it was meant to be.
Bow stance as a ready stance does not allow any move that uses bow stance in striking, at least not properly, without withdrawal first, which means that all those nice bow stance moves will require you to withdraw at least partially to a neutral stance to do them, anyway. It allows for no speed in footwork, little power, and is a gross misinterpretation of what bow stance is about in regards to striking.
One moves into bow stance in striking. The point at which one is in bow stance is a risky point if the other person is still in a position to attack. If you’re trying to draw an attack is the one rational that makes sense, but I don’t see that as useful against an equal or near-equal outside of blade work, and still it is a risk that could end badly.
Get into bow stance and get out, those are goals. Using it as a ready stance is essentially opening targets to your opponent and reducing mobility so that they can get around defenses more easily. Since forward and angled forward motions are vital in “the street” and fighting in general, to start from the stance that has the least potential forward momentum, the least efficient shuffle, and leaves only step throughs, which are easier to read, is counter to the goal.
As far as lunge as an attack, yes. Lunge as a ready stance, no. Precontact, bow as a ready stance has the same risk that an unmodified boxer’s stance would face versus kicks, and less forward mobility.
[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1130475]Bow stance as a ready stance does not allow any move that uses bow stance in striking, at least not properly, without withdrawal first, which means that all those nice bow stance moves will require you to withdraw at least partially to a neutral stance to do them, anyway. It allows for no speed in footwork, little power, and is a gross misinterpretation of what bow stance is about in regards to striking.[/QUOTE]
Why do you want to withdraw first? You are ready to attack at that moment. The nice thing about your bow-arrow stance is that your weight is already shifted on your front leg. You can attack with your back leg anytime you want to.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1130496]Why do you want to withdraw first? You are ready to attack at that moment. The nice thing about your bow-arrow stance is that your weight is already shifted on your front leg. You can attack with your back leg anytime you want to.[/QUOTE]
True, but if that is your ready stance, then only an incompetent opponent is not going to think “the most likely forward attack is his rear leg”.
If it’s merely a transitional stance that comes up naturally in the fight, then it won’t be as easy to read, and the kick has a better chance, but as a ready stance, it’s not a great one, imo, because you need to withdraw to shuffle forward well, or express moves that utilize the upper body in bow(withdraw then move forward in bow again). And again, as a ready stance, only a fool won’t think “mainly his rear leg is ready to attack with conviction.”
A more neutral stance is pretty much advocated in any style I can think of as being an ideal ready stance for striking.
I’m not arguing against bow, but against bow as a ready stance in striking. Much more easy to read, and much more limited forward mobility, where striking is concerned, imo.
When you have your right leg forward bow-arrow stance and your toes is pointing to your left (your opponent’s right) to cover your groin area, 90% of the time, your opponent will sweep or use his low round house kick to attack your “over” weighted leading leg. If you can “bait” your opponent to do so, it will be to your advantage after that.
I could swear I saw in Frank Yee’s ESPY-TV video that the horse stance is only used in combat when someone is sinking to pull their opponent downwards. Can it really be fought out of?
Fighting from a Horse stance
[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1130475]Since the entirety of what you and I have been talking about is the bow stance as a ready stance, and since it’s not a good ready stance for striking in most cases because, if you’re opponent is equal in skill to you, and if he is using a more neutral stance, he has more options, you less, you haven’t managed to “teach” me anything.
Bow stance is, in striking, in effect, a lunge. If you are in bow, you are severely limited in your forward movement, even a high bow, to, at best, a half step forward without changing facing, which is a bad plan once striking is happening, but contact and clinching are not secured. If the opponent is in front of you, using his range, and especially if they have some reach advantage, they can hit you and outpace your forward movement, because you’ve picked the one stance that, as a ready stance, makes you move forward slower and much less distance than an opponent can move backwards or even at an angle backwards.
The bow in kung fu is not a good ready stance against an equal in striking. Nor have I seen any evidence it was meant to be.
Bow stance as a ready stance does not allow any move that uses bow stance in striking, at least not properly, without withdrawal first, which means that all those nice bow stance moves will require you to withdraw at least partially to a neutral stance to do them, anyway. It allows for no speed in footwork, little power, and is a gross misinterpretation of what bow stance is about in regards to striking.
One moves into bow stance in striking. The point at which one is in bow stance is a risky point if the other person is still in a position to attack. If you’re trying to draw an attack is the one rational that makes sense, but I don’t see that as useful against an equal or near-equal outside of blade work, and still it is a risk that could end badly.
Get into bow stance and get out, those are goals. Using it as a ready stance is essentially opening targets to your opponent and reducing mobility so that they can get around defenses more easily. Since forward and angled forward motions are vital in “the street” and fighting in general, to start from the stance that has the least potential forward momentum, the least efficient shuffle, and leaves only step throughs, which are easier to read, is counter to the goal.
As far as lunge as an attack, yes. Lunge as a ready stance, no. Precontact, bow as a ready stance has the same risk that an unmodified boxer’s stance would face versus kicks, and less forward mobility.[/QUOTE]
You can argue with me all you like it really does ’ nt matter , and I really can ’ t teach you anything , anyway . You ’ re not open minded enough . So taxiquan , what is really your point anyway , you talk about goals , targets , and reducing mobility . So if I was in a boxer ’ s stance and I threw a right hook towards your face what would you do ? Or if I threw a low kick to your right knee and threw a straight right punch towards your face what would you do ? If I got you into a right headlock what would you do ? I ’ ve always explained to you what I would do , so lets discuss it , what would you do ? If I threw a right punch with a right lunge at you , what would you do ? What kind of martial arts or combat art do you train in , anyway . You still have ’ nt mention to me what martial arts you took ?
[QUOTE=lance;1130705]You can argue with me all you like it really does ’ nt matter , and I really can ’ t teach you anything , anyway . You ’ re not open minded enough .[/quote]
Am I supposed to feel bad for arguing respectfully? I have been clear about my terms, and have stated that I am merely discussing bow AS A READY STANCE. You haven’t said anything in regards to why it is a useful ready stance, but then made statements about me. Fine.
So taxiquan , what is really your point anyway,
That in striking, bow isn’t a good ready stance, I’ve only said that in virtually every paragraph I’ve written, so much so that I am now copying and pasting " in striking, bow isn’t a good ready stance."
, you talk about goals , targets , and reducing mobility . So if I was in a boxer ’ s stance and I threw a right hook towards your face what would you do ?
Since you’d have to have gotten past kicking range, in which case neither of us would be in ready stances anymore, this makes the entire question moot toward determining why bow is or isn’t a good ready stance.
Or if I threw a low kick to your right knee and threw a straight right punch towards your face what would you do ?
If, pre-contact, bow stance were my ready stance, both would be good targets to go for. If I was more neutral, I could evade both better. As for specific techniques, it’s a silly question. First, if the attacks are not effectual, I might simply ignore them. If they are of concern, and I’ve used bow as my stance, if you’ve kicked my knee with your lead leg, then the kick is likely to succeed, because my lead leg is weighted in bow, and my rear cannot travel its longest distance in the same time your lead leg travels its shortest, which is a good reason not to use the bow as a ready stance. This leaves the option of using my arm to prevent your kick, which makes your strike more likely to succeed. But such discussions are silly, because they remain too general. If it is a lead leg kick and I fade back from bow, it might not make good contact, and the punch would not be at good range anymore. If I pivot in and seize the leg well, I could end any chance of the punch happening by the right throw. In each case, bow does not increase the chance of this happening, especially if the opponent is of equal skill, and thus would suspect the bow is trying to draw an attack. If one assumes bow as a ready stance and fails to draw attack, they are in a worse spot than their opponent, unless they’re both doing the same thing, which would be sad.
If I DON’T use bow as a ready stance pre-contact, none of those problems exist, and there are numerous ways to respond, including stepping forward into the opponent’s space in bow in order to disrupt both the kick and strike.
If I got you into a right headlock what would you do ?
Again, pre-contact, immediately gaining a headlock, bypassing the entire striking range, it would only help if my head were closer, like, if I were in bow, but not using it as a lunge/forward pressure technique, but merely as a ready stance.
I ’ ve always explained to you what I would do
You have not explained how you use bow as a ready stance.
If I threw a right punch with a right lunge at you , what would you do ?
Again, this isn’t bow as a ready stance, it’s lunging. At this point, I’d be mildly surprised you’re using a lunge as a lunge. As for my response, that depends. Our relative size difference alone dictates that responses may vary. Also, I might deem you are a crazy person acting irrationally, and merely give you a wedgie, and a swirlie if you do it a second time.
What kind of martial arts or combat art do you train in , anyway . You still have ’ nt mention to me what martial arts you took ?
My main style is a wudang style called taixuquan, it’s in the taiji family, similar to Chen style. I’ve also studied some longfist in the past, and a smattering of other things.