I thought this thread was kind of interesting, before the mod got into a PP measuring contest, then locked the thread. Apparently, he’s the only one allowed to have a condescending attitude. So, let’s continue the discussion.
Personally, I think a lot of martial arts end up being defined more by the clothing than by the actual stylistic elements. The same stances, if done wearing silk pjs and frog buttons, vs. a spandex singlet, become different things.
I’ve always wanted to see someone actually fight in an MMA ruleset from a traditional low stance–partially because I’m curious as to what effect it would have on a shooting-in, ground game oriented fighter.
Your horse stance is a different thing than the wrestlers stance though. It has different requirements, especially the spine and how the upper body is held, and it is used differently.
No matter how long that you have trained your MA, you will still find out that the horse stance is the most stable “defense” stance in wrestling. If your opponent kicks at your groin, you can just grab his leg and move in.
The only problem is before you want to move in, you have to shift your weight on one of your legs. If you want to move in your
right leg, you need to shift weight to your left leg first.
left leg, you need to shift weight to your right leg first.
This will make your “offense” move to be 2 steps instead of just 1 step. Your weight shifting can telegraph your intention and your opponent may take advantage on that.
The best “offense” stance is the stance that you can spring forward (or backward) without any weight shifting (such as jump kick or flying side kick). The “defense” horse stance does not meet the requirement of “1 is better than 1, 2” if “lighting speed” is needed.
Your horse stance is a different thing than the wrestlers stance though. It has different requirements, especially the spine and how the upper body is held, and it is used differently.
have to agree with this. Wrestling stance is different than traditional CMA IMO. weight is shifted forward more.
I thought this thread was kind of interesting, before the mod got into a PP measuring contest, then locked the thread. Apparently, he’s the only one allowed to have a condescending attitude. So, let’s continue the discussion.
[/QUOTE]
nice passive aggressive play. :rolleyes:
keep it up!
horse stance isn’t fought out of.
it’s a training stance mostly and people who take that stance with their duke up are more than likely newbs who don’t know much about fighting.
so the guy who fights out of horse stance? Yeah, hit him, he doesn’t know what he’s doing obviously.
horse stance is almost entirely transitional in application. no one sits in a horse throwing punches.
Never stated that it didn’t have wrestling. But there are differences between the two. Also there are a lot of similarities. But honesty when people think of Kung fu they think of the striking arts.
S J seems to take a backseat compared.
Stance training is about transitions and leg strength. A good example is when performing an over the hip throw the first thing is to close the distance, turn into your opponent, drop your weight. Using a variation of a horse stance to drop is the key, because without this you will not be able to uproot your opponent’s balance.
As for fighting out of a horse stance (striking), unless your fighting someone who is a complete newb it is a dangerous and pretty stupid thing to do. Good strikers use circling, fight at angles, are are light and comfortable on thier feet, not rooted down and moving at the speed of a pregnant yak.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1124959]As for fighting out of a horse stance (striking), unless your fighting someone who is a complete newb it is a dangerous and pretty stupid thing to do. Good strikers use circling, fight at angles, are are light and comfortable on thier feet, not rooted down and moving at the speed of a pregnant yak.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Equal weighting like in horse is more useful when grappling or linked up, and even then, staying too centered(if not executing SOMETHING) seems like a bad idea. In striking, it’s just too slow because of the already mentioned need to shift weight no matter what.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1124926]nice passive aggressive play. :rolleyes:
keep it up!
horse stance isn’t fought out of.
it’s a training stance mostly and people who take that stance with their duke up are more than likely newbs who don’t know much about fighting.
so the guy who fights out of horse stance? Yeah, hit him, he doesn’t know what he’s doing obviously.
horse stance is almost entirely transitional in application. no one sits in a horse throwing punches.
except newbs and movie shots.[/QUOTE]
I take people down with mine all the time. In fact, the famous Shaolin ‘Hero in Horse Stance’ is a take down I drill a lot, be cause it’s done exactly like you see it at the end of most Shaolin forms. I do it just to be a **** to people who say you can’t use horse stance, or that you have to modify the moves in your forms to make them work.
Just like to add that when talking about the horse stance, it is usually the stance you end up in AFTER the throw, not to be confused with a fighting stance prior to engagment.
No one fights from a horse stance, please dont confuse horse with 50/50 or double weighted stance… they are seperate
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1124927]Never stated that it didn’t have wrestling. But there are differences between the two. Also there are a lot of similarities. But honesty when people think of Kung fu they think of the striking arts.
S J seems to take a backseat compared.[/QUOTE]
That is because most of Kung Fu is some type of Long Fist (it’s what they used for TKD, before TKD was invented).
Long Fist, especially the widely popular Moslem stuff is basically just kick boxing, with the addition of some locking, and throwing/takedowns.
This is also why so many ‘Kung Fu’ people resort to kick boxing when they fight.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1124981]Just like to add that when talking about the horse stance, it is usually the stance you end up in AFTER the throw, not to be confused with a fighting stance prior to engagment.
No one fights from a horse stance, please dont confuse horse with 50/50 or double weighted stance… they are seperate[/QUOTE]
Or at the same time as the throw, or to facilitate the throw.
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1124927] S J seems to take a backseat compared.[/QUOTE]
on a side note I think this is starting to change, big part due to mma. SJ is a great skillset to take to mma for a CMA guy. Mix with Sanda and then work the ground with some submission grappling. As more SJ guys go mma the over all impression of applicable CMA will lean towards SJ I think. Hopefully this will lead to more available SJ instruction.
I’ve always wanted to see someone actually fight in an MMA ruleset from a traditional low stance–partially because I’m curious as to what effect it would have on a shooting-in, ground game oriented fighter.[/QUOTE]
People use traditional stances all the time in mma. The problem with a lot of traditional stylists is that they mistake these very deep stances for a proper fighting shell. Often the very deep stances are for specialty purposes, specific situations that come up in a fight, training, and so on.
[QUOTE=Lucas;1124986]on a side note I think this is starting to change, big part due to mma. SJ is a great skillset to take to mma for a CMA guy. Mix with Sanda and then work the ground with some submission grappling. As more SJ guys go mma the over all impression of applicable CMA will lean towards SJ I think. Hopefully this will lead to more available SJ instruction.[/QUOTE]
Also consider that Sanda throws come from SJ, some may be trained differently due to wearing boxing gloves in Sanda. Taking that into consideration, a good Sanda program for CMA guys can be just as effective if not more due to the combination of strikes and throws/takedowns blended into it’s own style. Add groundwork and submissions and you have an MMA program.
Now one thing to consider is that with Sanda you may have one fighter more apt to strike and kickbox and one more apt to throw. Obviously the level and amount of throwing and takedowns will not be that of SJ since those are trained exclusively, but the point is as with most of the CMA schools who are going into MMA Sanda and SJ are the dominant programs in their schools.
The first competitive fighting style I ever really focused on was wrestling in high school (in a very competitive program that was typically close to number 1 in the state). In wrestling, the lowness of a stance was to prevent a quick single leg or double leg takedown. In my kung fu training, we typically practice our forms in lower, deeper stances, but spar from higher stances. I would think that low stances might prevent a striking-oriented fighter from going to the ground against a BJJ or other ground-oriented fighter. Its really hard to shoot-in effectively against a lower stance.
on a side note I think this is starting to change, big part due to mma. SJ is a great skillset to take to mma for a CMA guy. Mix with Sanda and then work the ground with some submission grappling. As more SJ guys go mma the over all impression of applicable CMA will lean towards SJ I think. Hopefully this will lead to more available SJ instruction.
I hope your right. I enjoy all clinch and grappling arts more so than any other. CMA has some of the tool sets for grappling but tend to over look them for watered down crap IMO.