[QUOTE=sihing;815771]I think Dale has added a word to his Wing Chun forum Vocabulary, “Fantasy Based Theoretical Fighting”, with the occasional addition of the word “approach” between the words theoretcial and fighting. I’m happy for you dude:)[/QUOTE]
That would be a phrase, not a word… a good, descriptive phrase.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815751]Their philosophy was that in the real world, if you are attacked, you will not have your hands up, which is true. It can be especially true for law enforcement personnel, who often have to reach into their utility belts, or are in the process of writing a citation when a suspect becomes agressive. Since theirs was supposed to be a real-world, CQB system, they attempted to mimic what was supposed to happen when attacked. Hence, the hands down approach.[/QUOTE]
Yeah no i get that, having a few friends on the job…
From a theoretical fighters POV 
thats a case of the style using you not you using the style…in the vid he seemed well aware the fight was on but hands are still down.
Perhaps he trained like that too much 
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815773]That would be a phrase, not a word… a good, descriptive phrase.[/QUOTE]
You’ve used Theoretical fighting/er before, so you’ve added two new words to your vocabulary here, Fantasy Based:). I’m sure you will inter mix the terms on a regular basis while you continue to post here, on a specific Martial Arts forum, that you don’t practice:eek:
J
[QUOTE=sihing;815781]You’ve used Theoretical fighting/er before, so you’ve added two new words to your vocabulary here, Fantasy Based:). I’m sure you will inter mix the terms on a regular basis while you continue to post here, on a specific Martial Arts forum, that you don’t practice:eek:
J[/QUOTE]
Yes I will find an endless use for my new words. It will be fun stating things such as, “James is a Theoretically Based Fantasy Fighther”, when I explain the specifics of a style in which I am a Reality Based Black Belt that others who have never trained in that style make clueless, uninformed comments about.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815784]Yes I will find an endless use for my new words. It will be fun stating things such as, “James is a Theoretically Based Fantasy Fighther”, when I explain the specifics of a style in which I am a Reality Based Black Belt that others who have never trained in that style make clueless, uninformed comments about.[/QUOTE]
It’s amazing isn’t it, what we can do when we rediscover the various uses of our vast array of words and phrases in the english language, it makes me happy that you will have fun in that endeavour:)
James
Now I’m not saying that BJJ is fantasy based but, A friend of mine took this clip with a digital camera in Hawaii.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVZ48fPSjoQ
It is of a “demo” of Gracie jiujitsu. I thought only TCMA did unrealistic demos. You can tell it’s a demo because the tap outs are in rotation. One guys taps out, then the other guys taps out and so on. So if BBJ can do “demos” and they are the best, invincible, and most realistic why can’t WC ?
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;815812]So if BBJ can do “demos” and they are the best, invincible, and most realistic why can’t WC ?
[/QUOTE]
We can and do quite often.. LOL
The problem is that the demos look too much like the training in many cases, and in many cases both the demos and the training ain’t so hot.. Er alive..
If more folks were fighting and doing well in sport venues and showing decent WCK then I don’t think you’d hear many complaints about the demos.
If anything, the use of the gi shows how “non-fantasy” BJJ is, considering that in real life people wear clothes and will more than likely be grabbing your clothes when you fight. All of the gi based subissions work the same with clothes as they do with the gi.
—Well, I live in the southwest, where 9 months out of the year people walk around in T shirts or other light shirts. You don’t see anyone wearing anything that resembles a Gi…until winter time when they start to put on jackets. None of the lapel chokes, sleeve chokes, or grabbing onto the sleeves for control is going to work on someone that lives in that environment for the majority of the time. I can’t imagine that it is much different in Brazil. So I don’t agree with your point. I think training with a heavy canvas Gi is not very realistic…and I think there is an aspect of “fantasy-fu” here.
As a strength and conditioning specialist, I can tell you that when athletic conditioning programs are designed for athletes, we attempt to design them around the movements of the activity the athlete is involved in.
—I don’t dispute that at all. But athletes still hit the weights. They still run or skip rope for cardo. Maybe you are overlooking the fact that there is a conditioning element in WCK that may not match real application exactly, but that
is beneficial none-the-less…just as these other things that don’t match the sport application exactly can be beneficial.
I’ve already done that (i.e. get rid of the forms and wooden dummy, turn chi sao into more of a sparring and clinch work type of thing, and add elements of other arts), but it falls on deaf ears.
—Then perhaps it is your method of delivery?
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;815812]Now I’m not saying that BJJ is fantasy based but, A friend of mine took this clip with a digital camera in Hawaii.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVZ48fPSjoQ
It is of a “demo” of Gracie jiujitsu. I thought only TCMA did unrealistic demos. You can tell it’s a demo because the tap outs are in rotation. One guys taps out, then the other guys taps out and so on. So if BBJ can do “demos” and they are the best, invincible, and most realistic why can’t WC ? ;)[/QUOTE]
Phil-
With the exception of the arm bar from the knee ride in the beginning and the two neck cranks close to the end, all the techniques shown are regularly pulled off in competitions just the way they were shown.
The techniques done in demos should be able to be pulled off just as they are shown against other skilled opponents.
[QUOTE=KPM;815847]—Well, I live in the southwest, where 9 months out of the year people walk around in T shirts or other light shirts. You don’t see anyone wearing anything that resembles a Gi…until winter time when they start to put on jackets. None of the lapel chokes, sleeve chokes, or grabbing onto the sleeves for control is going to work on someone that lives in that environment for the majority of the time. [/QUOTE]
I regularly train with T-shirts and shorts. Most gi techniques can be applied and/or modified to this. Sleeve control can be done with short sleeves and collar chokes are very nasty with T-shirts. There are ways to grip to turn the opponent’s T-shirt collar into a rope that digs into the neck and leaves a nasty looking welt if you don’t tap fast. T-shirts are probably even more verstile than a gi because you can use your own shirt for many different rope-type chokes.
Maybe you are overlooking the fact that there is a conditioning element in WCK that may not match real application exactly, but that
is beneficial none-the-less…just as these other things that don’t match the sport application exactly can be beneficial.
LOL @ WC having much of a conditioning element. The fact that it doesn’t is one of its big problems.
Umm… read the first post of this thread. It is about BJJ being a fantasy based MA.
—Yes please do! That is not an entirely accurate statement. I never said BJJ was a fantasy-based MA. I said it had some elements of the “fantasy fu” in it the same as most martial arts. Here was the main point:
But BJJ is just as guilty as WCK of developing and teaching technique that is not based on “real” fighting. Rolling with a partner in the gym or in a tournament is not “real” fighting, just like Chi Sao and sparring are not “real” fighting. BJJ is a good example of what a progressive and modern martial art should look like. But let’s not give them TOO much credit! Labeling one method as “reality” and the other as “fantasy” is not very useful. Lets just get to training and do our best to progress and evolve.
A thread started buy a guy whose entire experience with BJJ is watching it on TV.
—Now you are jumping to conclusions. Why do you have to take an antagonistic attitude when people are just trying to have a reasonable discussion? That’s why these kind of threads end up going down the drain. I have trained the basics of BJJ in the past. But I didn’t have the opportunity to go beyond a basic beginner’s level. I may try and correct that in the future. Or I may seek out some training in Catch/submission Wrestling, because I have no desire to learn lots of technique while wearing a Gi.
;)I regularly train with T-shirts and shorts. Most gi techniques can be applied and/or mosdified to this. Sleeve control can be done with short sleeves and collar chokes are very nasty with T-shirts. There are ways to grip to turn the opponent’s T-shirt collar into a rope that digs into the neck and leaves a nasty looking welt if you don’t tap fast. T-shirts are probably even more verstile than a gi because you can use your own shirt for many different rope-type chokes.
—Ok. Thanks Dale. I wasn’t aware that you could do that much with a simple T shirt. But it still begs the question…why train technique that must be “modified” for actual application? Why not train with a jacket that more closely resembles the actual clothing that an attacker would be wearing? How about a heavy duty reinforced T shirt for training rather than a big baggy jacket with no buttons? I still maintain that the Gi training, and the BJJ tournaments have a certain element of “fantasy-fu” to them as well. Not nearly as much as in most TMAs, but its there nonetheless. And again…don’t get me wrong. I admire the BJJ guys. My primary point has simply been that they may not be the paragons of “reality” martial art that you and Terence make them out to be.
LOL @ WC having much of a conditioning element. The fact that it doesn’t is one of its big problems.
—I agree with you on that point! I think there is too much of the metaphysical “chi” development and not enough of actual hard work and conditioning. But I also acknowledge that there is something to the training that helps your body conform to the structure that WCK uses. There is an aspect of the training that helps “rewire” your responses. I think that is what James has been getting at on some of his posts. Perhaps you didn’t do enough WCK to experience this aspect, just as I didn’t do enough BJJ to experience the T shirt modifications.
LOL@ good WCK not having conditioning..
LOL@ BJJ working in the street just like on the mat with gi’s..
If one can’t see/admit the limits of a style or system then their FOS or ignorant.
If one can’t see/admit what’s good in a style or system then they’re also FOS or ignorant…
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815850]
The techniques done in demos should be able to be pulled off just as they are shown against other skilled opponents.[/QUOTE]
IMO, this statement sounds like all the same theororetical fantasy based stuff to me 
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;815895]IMO, this statement sounds like all the same theororetical fantasy based stuff to me :D[/QUOTE]
Well you know Dale told Kevin G that he thinks has more street experience than him, and doesn’t believe a word of what Kev says, even though he’s never met him. That is a sign of someone that has selective hearing persay, and only listens or sees what he wants to, based on his belief structure. It is getting very easy to see just what T and Dale are about, it’s hilarious.
James
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;815895]IMO, this statement sounds like all the same theororetical fantasy based stuff to me :D[/QUOTE]
Flying arm bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8_FevrLdaw
Flying triangle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLQk8DAYL64
Kimura:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Rx-JgjBGs
Straight arm bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Rx-JgjBGs
Twister:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvj8N6MHOXg
Flying leg scissor to heel hook:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2XRZsNQb7U
Knee bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbe6wlWMYrE
Figure 4 foot lock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBi6rcQe9ig
Please post some full contact matches of SLT or chi sao being used.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815850]Phil-
With the exception of the arm bar from the knee ride in the beginning and the two neck cranks close to the end, all the techniques shown are regularly pulled off in competitions just the way they were shown.
The techniques done in demos should be able to be pulled off just as they are shown against other skilled opponents.[/QUOTE]
Oh, like the bong lops performed in the clips of our guy in his Lei Tai match. I know the guys they they fought aren’t professional fighters but the techniques were pulled off against resisting opponents who were trying to hurt back.
Phil
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815854] . . . LOL @ WC having much of a conditioning element. The fact that it doesn’t is one of its big problems.[/QUOTE]
Wow, anyone here who trained at Duncan Leungs can tell you that’s not true. Look at the pic of me on my website with that six pack. I got that from training WC at 3 Great jones St. Also, I’ll take some video of our conditioning class in NJ and post it next week. It uses WC to get strength and cardio. I don’t believe any martial art will be effective without conditioning.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;815907]Wow, anyone here who trained at Duncan Leungs can tell you that’s not true. Look at the pic of me on my website with that six pack. I got that from training WC at 3 Great jones St. Also, I’ll take some video of our conditioning class in NJ and post it next week. It uses WC to get strength and cardio. I don’t believe any martial art will be effective without conditioning.[/QUOTE]
Phil-
Please post a current pic of the six pack that you have that has been developed by your WC training over the years.
Please post a current pic of the six pack that you have that has been developed by your WC training over the years.
LOL, this is getting ridiculous.
You’re giving ammo to the “BJJ? That’s the gayest sport there is!” crowd.