"Fantasy-base" martial arts

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Terence wrote on another belabored thread:

[B]I’ve been “in” WCK for almost 25 years now, and I’ve seen many of the “masters” and “grandmasters”, and I’ve seen lots of WCK people, and I’ve seen many WCK videos, read many WCK books, attended many WCK seminars, etc. And for the overwhelming part, they all teach fantasy-based martial art.

What do I mean by fantasy-based martial art. Well, they don’t start with something they can really do (and really do use) in fighting and then teach that to others (which would be reality-based martial art) – like they do in the functional martial arts like BJJ for example. They teach things that they don’t really do, and have never done in fighting but teach instead from a theoretical perspective (from a concept or idea of what they believe they can do) and then use unrealistic exercises to practice and reinforce these things (so they begin with a fantasy, and that’s the base of what they do). And then if they do “spar”, you don’t see the very things they practice to do come out at all or if they do, very infrequently or not as they train to do them. [B]

I thought this might make an interesting discussion. While I think that Terrence’s central point has some validity, I also think he is using a straw-man argument. It seems like BJJ is the example most often held up of what a “functional” martial art should be like. But even BJJ has found out in recent years that it has had to do some changing and evolving. Terrence says that “fantasy-based” martial arts are those that “teach things that they don’t really do, and have never done in fighting.” The problem is…who really “fights” anymore? BJJ has discovered that a vast amount of the technique they were teaching for BJJ tournaments simply does not work in an MMA setting, which is closer to “real” fighting. A high percentage of the really slick moves that you see in BJJ tournaments where the opponent is competing under the same mindset simply don’t show up often at all in MMA. So is the rolling that the BJJ guys do really all that different from doing Chi Sao? Is BJJ really the “reality” martial art icon that Terrence would have us believe?

Don’t get me wrong. I give BJJ kudos for being progressive and willing to adapt and change as needed. This is something that WCK needs to do as well. But BJJ is just as guilty as WCK of developing and teaching technique that is not based on “real” fighting. Rolling with a partner in the gym or in a tournament is not “real” fighting, just like Chi Sao and sparring are not “real” fighting. BJJ is a good example of what a progressive and modern martial art should look like. But let’s not give them TOO much credit! :wink: Labeling one method as “reality” and the other as “fantasy” is not very useful. Lets just get to training and do our best to progress and evolve.

Keith

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You misspelled Terence’s name! He gets peeved when you do that.

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[QUOTE=KPM;815233]I thought this might make an interesting discussion. While I think that Terrence’s central point has some validity, I also think he is using a straw-man argument. [/QUOTE]

I find it interesting that a thread is actually created in the name of someone who others are trying to ban. I like some of T’s posts to be honest, but he has also cheesed me off sometimes, like most others here. But hey! I’ve ruffled a few feathers myself, so I can’t play all angelic lol!

I can’t get used to this place! All good though. All good. :wink:

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[QUOTE=KPM;815233] But BJJ is just as guilty as WCK of developing and teaching technique that is not based on “real” fighting. Rolling with a partner in the gym or in a tournament is not “real” fighting, just like Chi Sao and sparring are not “real” fighting. BJJ is a good example of what a progressive and modern martial art should look like. But let’s not give them TOO much credit! :wink: Labeling one method as “reality” and the other as “fantasy” is not very useful. Lets just get to training and do our best to progress and evolve.[/QUOTE]

BJJ has three distinct divisions- gi, no gi, and vale tudo/mma.

Each division has particular techniques suited to each particular environment. The differerence between BJJ and fantasy MA’s is that each of the divisions of BJJ includes full force sparring and competing against fully resisting opponents.

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Keith, the simplest way to see what a fantasy-based martial art is to look at where the strategies, tactics, tools, etc. come from (or, perhaps more precisely, how they are shown to be used) – do they come from experience in fighting, in actually doing those things, seeing that they work well, and then training them, teaching them, etc. or do they come from something besides actual experience, like theory, unrealistic drills, etc. The former is reality-based martial art, the latter fantasy-based martial art (fantasy-based arts like to say they come from experience, but you of course never see it).

BJJ is a reality-based martial art. The techniques, strategies, tactics, etc. they teach, train, etc. are those that they have found through actual experience fighitng work and continue to work in sparring. When your BJJ instructor teaches you, he teaches you from experience, teaching you those things that he knows works – becasue he’s either done them or at the very least seen them done, repeatedly, consistently, at high levels of resisitance, in sparring. That is not how fantasy-based martial arts teach or train.

Much of what is trained, taught, etc, in WCK is fantasy – it is not the stuff people really do or can really do when they fight, it is stuff they fantasize they can do when they fight.

Here is a fantasy sequence from a WCK website:

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/movie_viewer.asp?obj_width=320&obj_height=240&filename=images/movs/theory/noforce_fast.flv&filesize=

This is fantasy – no one will ever be able to really do any of that they way it is done in the clip. It’s not like they took what really happens in fighting and have demo’ed it. Now, someone can argue that this is just to show the “principles” of WCK. But that begs the question: why demo the “principles” in a way you could never use them?!

So let me ask you: if you train to do stuff like this but can never really do it, how effective is that training? In my view, you would be wasting yoru time. If you can’t do in fighting the things you train to do as you train them, aren’t you just doing fantasy?

And, btw, to piggy-back on what Dale said, from my perspective fighting is adaptive. And so will adapt your tools, strategies, tactics, etc. to the situation at hand. You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It’s all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them.

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great Dale and T telling everyone what is and what isnt VT :D… ignore thread :rolleyes:

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I like fantasy-based MA, you can get to be a jedi or a samurai or a medieval knight, cool stuff like that.
Maybe get a job at medieval times and hit on the wenches.
Fantasy is cool, you can live vicariously through others too, you can pretend you are Rickson, or BJ Penn even :slight_smile:

And great fun is had by all !

Pass the chicken and ribs wench !!

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;815313]
And, btw, to piggy-back on what Dale said, from my perspective fighting is adaptive. And so will adapt your tools, strategies, tactics, etc. to the situation at hand. You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It’s all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them.[/QUOTE]

Forgetting all the other BS, could you please explain how you ‘adapt’ BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)

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This is fantasy – no one will ever be able to really do any of that they way it is done in the clip. It’s not like they took what really happens in fighting and have demo’ed it.

Terrrance, although i agree with some points you make i think the above is a circular argument…

So let me ask you: if you train to do stuff like this but can never really do it, how effective is that training? In my view, you would be wasting yoru time. If you can’t do in fighting the things you train to do as you train them, aren’t you just doing fantasy?

I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we’re going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy? I dont think so, it only means I suck at it? So i dont think that the above criteria alone is enough to put the official ‘fantasy’ stamp on any martial art.

And, btw, to piggy-back on what Dale said, from my perspective fighting is adaptive. And so will adapt your tools, strategies, tactics, etc. to the situation at hand. You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It’s all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them.

I disagree with this. Lets suppose gi bjj is a realistic skill. Lets also suppose that boxing is a realistic skill. And the ring is a realistic environment. Is my crappling gonna help me in th eboxing ring?

Why is it that gi grappling is assumed to be realistic to fighting? How bout sport tkd? judo? chi sao?

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;815363]Forgetting all the other BS, could you please explain how you ‘adapt’ BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)[/QUOTE]

Its a fallacy that BJJ is al about ground work, BJJ as applied to MMA /Vale Tudo incorporates the stand up of Muay Thai, boxing and wrestling.

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Your fantasy? or WC fantasy?

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;815313]Much of what is trained, taught, etc, in WCK is fantasy – it is not the stuff people really do or can really do when they fight, it is stuff they fantasize they can do when they fight.

Here is a fantasy sequence from a WCK website:

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/movie_viewer.asp?obj_width=320&obj_height=240&filename=images/movs/theory/noforce_fast.flv&filesize=

This is fantasy – no one will ever be able to really do any of that they way it is done in the clip. It’s not like they took what really happens in fighting and have demo’ed it. Now, someone can argue that this is just to show the “principles” of WCK. But that begs the question: why demo the “principles” in a way you could never use them?! [/QUOTE]

The TWC video clip you cite as evidence of fantasy based training does not purport to be video of a real combat situation. But since we are on the subject of fantasy. Here is another video clip of a fantasy sequence… no punches to the head permitted, no fishooks, etc. Although the differences in videos is obvious, the point is… you are quick to see the fantasy in TMA - but completely blind to the fantasy of those that you tout as realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVds78FSl4E

You need to get off your high-horse. Why don’t you MMA types go to the MMA forum and talk about how great your martial arts is? Oh - probably because those guys would see right through your BS.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;815367]Its a fallacy that BJJ is al about ground work, BJJ as applied to MMA /Vale Tudo incorporates the stand up of Muay Thai, boxing and wrestling.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you are saying, to ‘apply’ BJJ in stand up, you use something else.. like MT, boxing, wrestling, etc. Doesn’t sound like BJJ to me, sounds like something else

My question was directly relating to T’s post about BJJ being able to adapt to the situation at hand… which IMO is, well, for now I’ll keep it to myself until reading his reply :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;815313]Here is a fantasy sequence from a WCK website:

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/movie_viewer.asp?obj_width=320&obj_height=240&filename=images/movs/theory/noforce_fast.flv&filesize=

This is fantasy – no one will ever be able to really do any of that they way it is done in the clip. It’s not like they took what really happens in fighting and have demo’ed it. Now, someone can argue that this is just to show the “principles” of WCK. But that begs the question: why demo the “principles” in a way you could never use them?!

So let me ask you: if you train to do stuff like this but can never really do it, how effective is that training? In my view, you would be wasting yoru time. If you can’t do in fighting the things you train to do as you train them, aren’t you just doing fantasy?[/QUOTE]

I’d seen this clip before t, and can understand what you say here, for once. :wink: But I also argue the point, if you can’t actually use what we’re looking at here, as a Wing Chun student you haven’t put in enough time. I hope that most practitioners can see the set and how they would demo in their way, at their speed, with their power and character. For that is Wing Chun IMO.

The young femme fatale here still has crisp shape. Enough for a download on a website as an example. As for the fantasy, are we talking of some sort if vizualization? Isn’t that what we all do to see the next stage of progression? How would you look if you ‘copied’ this set your way t?

Could be filmed in a second or two, right?

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Bjj

i just have a question i studied some bjj not seriously but i’ve done for a while and why do people consider it more functional then other martial arts. i see it as just as functional as any other functional martial arts. it has its plus’s and it has it negatives. me personally i wouldn;t want to grapple with people in the streets for many reason’s beyond enviroment beyond if the guy had buddies. mainly the way alot of these street thugs gang memeber fight alot of these guy have razor blades in between their fingers and in their mouths. now what happens when you taking the guy to the ground and he grabs your neck with those razors in between his fingers (i’m not talking about box cutters i’m talking about actual razor blades) or he pulls a razor from the side of his or soemthing like that. i know this may sound crazy for those who don;t really live in urban or gang infested area’s but this is a reality and i’m speaking from experience. anyway i say to each his own just do what works for you not what someone else says works for them.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;815363]Forgetting all the other BS, could you please explain how you ‘adapt’ BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)[/QUOTE]

Oh, it’s not BS – fantasy-based MAs abound. And they are easy to spot.

What you wish to do in any fight doesn’t mean that will happen. It would be nice if we had that control. We very often don’t.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;815388] What you wish to do in any fight doesn’t mean that will happen. It would be nice if we had that control. We very often don’t.[/QUOTE]

no kidding? wow, I think that’s the key we’ve all been missing :rolleyes:

There you go gain, totally avoiding the question YET AGAIN.

Here, I’ll try it again -
In case you forgot already, you said “… You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It’s all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them.”

to which I said “could you please explain how you ‘adapt’ BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)”

So, again, just so we know you are on the level and not just trolling - How do you take your trianing in BJJ and adapt it to the street if you want to stay standing and keep it there? (forget the sport crap too, you were specifically saying it’s all fighting)
Just for grins, since you said it, back it up for once. Or do you not have to qualify ANYTHING you say?

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;815388]Oh, it’s not BS – fantasy-based MAs abound. And they are easy to spot.
.[/QUOTE]

ok, list the one’s you’ve spotted :slight_smile:
And nothing general, get right down to the point and give solid examples. List practitioners, lineages, etc if you’d like. Be specific as possible so we know where you’re coming from. Typical answers like “all fantasy-based WC, or aikido, etc” don’t count.

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[QUOTE=MisterNoobie;815366]Terrrance, although i agree with some points you make i think the above is a circular argument…
[/QUOTE]

It’s not circular. A martial art that is reality-based uses experience actually fighting as the basis for which to train, etc. It starts with the fight and sees what things actually work (either via experiement, trial-and-error, whatever) and retains thos things that prove useful. That’s why they evolve. Fantasy-based MAs don’t do that. They being with a fantasy, an idea, a “concept” (the fantasy) of how fighting should work. And they don’t take the next step.

I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we’re going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy? I dont think so, it only means I suck at it? So i dont think that the above criteria alone is enough to put the official ‘fantasy’ stamp on any martial art.

Go back and read my post. I said, “When your BJJ instructor teaches you, he teaches you from experience, teaching you those things that he knows works – becasue he’s either done them or at the very least seen them done, repeatedly, consistently, at high levels of resisitance . . .” Did you read that part? What we know is that those things can work, and can work at a very high level AND WE KNOW THAT FROM EXPERIENCE not theoy.

Contrast that, for example, with those WCK people who teach that the biu jee is a finger jab attack, and show pictures, etc. of themselves striking with their fingers. Pure fantasy.

I disagree with this. Lets suppose gi bjj is a realistic skill. Lets also suppose that boxing is a realistic skill. And the ring is a realistic environment. Is my crappling gonna help me in th eboxing ring?

Why is it that gi grappling is assumed to be realistic to fighting? How bout sport tkd? judo? chi sao?

Because something is a realistic skill and adaptive, doesn’t mean it works in every situation or context. Obviously ground skills are only going to work on the ground.

You don’t understand what it means for a skill to be realistic. It is realistic because we can look at genuine fights and see that these things actually work as they are practiced. You can’t tell what is realistic by some theoretical basis. It’s based only on observation and experience. If what you are doing in practice doesn’t correspond to what you are doing in fighting, then it isn’t a realsitic skill.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;815391]no kidding? wow, I think that’s the key we’ve all been missing :rolleyes:

There you go gain, totally avoiding the question YET AGAIN.

Here, I’ll try it again -
In case you forgot already, you said “… You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It’s all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them.”

to which I said “could you please explain how you ‘adapt’ BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)”

So, again, just so we know you are on the level and not just trolling - How do you take your trianing in BJJ and adapt it to the street if you want to stay standing and keep it there? (forget the sport crap too, you were specifically saying it’s all fighting)
Just for grins, since you said it, back it up for once. Or do you not have to qualify ANYTHING you say?[/QUOTE]

You aren’t understanding what I’m saying. I’m not saying BJJ can be used to do whatever you want. I’m saying the skills that BJJ teach can with adaptation be used in the gym, in the cage, in the ring, in the street, etc.

Instead of looking at it from a style perspective, let’s make it simpler. How do you get out of a headlock. That’s a realisiic skill. If you have the skill to do that, you can do it in a gym, in the street, in the cage. You may have to adapt it a bit, but the fundamental skill will apply.

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[QUOTE=doug maverick;815381] mainly the way alot of these street thugs gang memeber fight alot of these guy have razor blades in between their fingers and in their mouths. [/QUOTE]

LOL @ believing the urban myth of guys walking around with razor blades in their mouths. Even bigger LOL’s a someone actually trying to do that in a physical confrontation.

Tell you what… try putting a razor blade in your mouth and tussling around with someone. Get back to me on how many stiches you needed on the inside of your mouth and tongue… that’s assuming you didn’t swallow it in the first place.