"Functionalizing" WCK

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I do think that Terence and Dale have legitimate points in their criticisms of much of “traditional” WCK training. I also think that sometimes they take their arguments too far, but I believe this is because that is often the only way to get people’s attention and make the points sink in.

So rather than take a negative tack about how bad things are in Wing Chun, let’s take a positive tack and talk about how to make WCK more “functional.”

How do we make WCK more “functional” and more “realistic” without starting from scratch and “throwing out the baby with the bathwater”? How do we keep our WCK from becoming something else and straying from its roots?

I think there is lots of room for productive discussion here. Let’s keep it positive and civil. This whole thread is about how WCK should evolve in our modern times. If you are a purist and don’t think that WCK needs to change, that’s fine. I respect your perspective. But if so, then please refrain from posting here and turning the whole thing into an argument and taking it off on various tangents.

So there it is guys. Terence? Dale? Victor? Ernie? How do we evolve and “functionalize” WCK in a positive way while still keeping it recognizably WCK?

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Spar, hard, with people from different systems in a LIMITED ruleset.

3

start heading down the road towards JKD? If that is a precursor to modern MMA, not that bad an idea

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I think that sanjuro_ronin is on the right track. Most Chunners out there stop at Chi Sao or even Lat-Sao and believe this is enough. IMO you have to spar hard to make anything out of any art. MMA, JKD and other arts would not be anything if it weren’t for sparring.

We also need to think a little bit about modifying the way we actually train to accommodate modern weapons, multiple attackers and ground fighting. Especially weapons. In our society today they are everywhere. And in my opinion the classical WC weapons are not that good. I have been training in the FMA’s for 13 years now due to that fact.

5

Its already been done. Thats what T is always trying to tell people about. Maybe others with see that my teacher Robert Chu was way before his time now.

I have taken his system and put it to the test over the last few years, with my guys entering all types of comps and events.

We are still doing it now. We have a pro mma show in a few weeks with 3 of my guys fighting.

I have set up a chi sao comp with hard contact to test the body power the key to control in combat. What would BJJ be without good base? Poor grappling. Its the base that makes the art work.

The feedback so far for my wing chun event is very quite. Most wing chun are brain washed into thinking that if its hard to do then its wrong.

Fighting is not easy. Time to break a sweat.

Lets see who wants to put their ideas to a set. I hate light chi sao comps, so hard hitting chi sao will be a good step up for wing chun. Control position and pressure. Testing like this, kickboxing and MMA that is the only think to wake people up.

Some many guys I meet with poor wing chun that they say will work because they will side step and redirect… dream on. Dale and T are right. It’s just time for people to work on testing are they right or not.

I have had a week for work this week so I have posted more times this week that I do in a year. Maybe the timing was right to rant a bit

Wing Chun works, but not all wing chun works. Lets set the record straight.

Spar with other people that your friends or students! Wing chun teacher who only have training with less skilled studnets are not testing at all. Maybe good training but its limited.

Regards

Alan

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;820593]Spar, hard, with people from different systems in a LIMITED ruleset.[/QUOTE]

Here’s the thing – you are correct that it is realistic sparring (or realistic drills, which are snippets of sparring) is the only way to develop realistic skills.

That said, two other things need to be addressed. First, we need to appreciate that we will only “develop” those things we use regularly in realistic sparring. So, for example, if you only chain punch and front kick in your sparring, guess what you will develop? Only the chain punch and the front kick (the Caveman). If you kickbox when you spar, you will develop your kickboxing.

This is one reason I call WCK a fantasy-based MA: you see people practice all kinds of things (how to use the WCK tools) in the WCK unrealistic drills (chi sao, kiu sao,etc.) but they never do – or will be able to do – those things in realistic sparring as they’ve trained to do them. They train one thing and will end up doing another. And this is because most people don’t really know from experience – and knowledge only comes via experience – how to use the tools of WCK in fighting. They believe that the application of the tools corresponds to the unrealistic drills/exercises (they don’t) or they have some hokey theory about how to use them (which is mostly nonsense).

And so, if you don’t learn how to use the tools in fighting, you won’t use them in sparring, and you will not develop the ability to use them in fighting. You need that 1 (learning) - to - 1 (training) - to - 1 (realistic sparring) correspondence. Without that, you can’t make much progress regardless of how much you spar.

How do you know if someone really"knows" how to use the WCK tools? There is only one way: you need to see them realistically spar and see those tools used regularly and successfully. You should see it fought before you see it taught. Otherwise, what you learn will be fantasy, what you train will be fantasy, and when you fight, you won’t be able to use the tools that way.

The second thing is the quality of the sparring, both in terms of its realism (so its not just playfighting, but has genuine intensity, etc.) and in terms of the skill level of your training/sparring partners. You will only get as good as your training/sparring partners. This is true in any competitive, athletic activity.

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[QUOTE=KPM;820585]How do we make WCK more “functional” and more “realistic” without starting from scratch and “throwing out the baby with the bathwater”? How do we keep our WCK from becoming something else and straying from its roots? [/QUOTE]

To make a system more functional, the first requirement is to get rid of that type of thinking. A system should evolve based on functionality, not on whether or not it is “sticking to its roots”. A functional system has no problem adapting things that work, although they may even change the very nature of that system.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;820655]To make a system more functional, the first requirement is to get rid of that type of thinking. A system should evolve based on functionality, not on whether or not it is “sticking to its roots”. A functional system has no problem adapting things that work, although they may even change the very nature of that system.[/QUOTE]

A very good point.

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“To make a system more functional, the first requirement is to get rid of that type of thinking. A system should evolve based on functionality, not on whether or not it is “sticking to its roots”. A functional system has no problem adapting things that work, although they may even change the very nature of that system.” (Dale)

***CORRECT.

One of the criticisms of the vids I posted a few years ago was that they strayed too far from “basic” wing chun. That’s stupid. Like any other system, wing chun is not immune to the passage of time. And with time things need to be adapted, adjusted, added to, subtracted from, etc.

As long as you’re using some form of the “centerline” (or central line) principle, focusing mainly (but not exclusively) on straight line striking with your punches/kicks when in close quarters and striking is in order…work toward some form of simultaneous (or near simultaneous) blocking and striking when in close quarters…have contact reflex skills that allow for manipulation of your opponent’s limbs and body structure balance when the opportunity arises…

you’re using wing chun principles and concepts.

AND WHEN OTHER PRINCIPLES, CONCEPTS, STRATEGIES, AND TECHNIQUES are in order - use them.

Whether they fit the wing chun mold or not.

If it’s not functional - it’s not worth talking about.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;820655]To make a system more functional, the first requirement is to get rid of that type of thinking. A system should evolve based on functionality, not on whether or not it is “sticking to its roots”. A functional system has no problem adapting things that work, although they may even change the very nature of that system.[/QUOTE]

You make a good point, and one that is the biggest problem in TMA, the fact that they have almost ALL strayed from their roots already.
The vast majority, if not all, of the systems of H2H combat are based on fighting and effective fighting above all, and the exceptions aside, against skilled fighters.
The moment a system stops doing and being just that, that have strayed and doing anything to bring it back is not on a smart thing to do but the responsibility of anyone doing and teaching said system.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;820638]How do you know if someone really"knows" how to use the WCK tools? There is only one way: you need to see them realistically spar and see those tools used regularly and successfully. You should see it fought before you see it taught. Otherwise, what you learn will be fantasy, what you train will be fantasy, and when you fight, you won’t be able to use the tools that way.[/QUOTE]

I agree with your idea behind this thread t, but the more people who get hoodwinked into this ‘see it to believe it’ attitude will only ever suffer in the future, as this has hapened before in China (so a little birdie tells me!)

If I have to actually ‘see’ my teacher ‘do someone up’ before I believe in them, then I will automatically pass that idea on to my own students and have to ‘prove’ myself to them too. What a merry-go-round! A person who is Champion is the best. Everyone else is not the real deal. AND when this Champion loses his next fight all his students will leave him and he’ll be a penniless beggar again!

C’mon gents, lets be honest.

I knew my teacher could take care of himself by ‘feeling’ him throughout my training, seeing him move in demonstrations and watching his reactions to the ‘newer’ students who also think and talk like you t!

Isn’t it funny how all this has started.

With people questioning their ‘roots’ and looking for the ‘staple diet’ of Martial Arts, the only functional way to functionalize an already functional system is to simply train harder with good guidance…

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;820704]I agree with your idea behind this thread t, but the more people who get hoodwinked into this ‘see it to believe it’ attitude will only ever suffer in the future, as this has hapened before in China (so a little birdie tells me!)
[/QUOTE]

Don’t beleive what you are told, even if it is from some little birdie. Only believe evidence that you can see.

If I have to actually ‘see’ my teacher ‘do someone up’ before I believe in them, then I will automatically pass that idea on to my own students and have to ‘prove’ myself to them too. What a merry-go-round! A person who is Champion is the best. Everyone else is not the real deal. AND when this Champion loses his next fight all his students will leave him and he’ll be a penniless beggar again!

This is precisely what happens in all functional martial arts – it’s not a matter of proving you are the best but that what you teach works, and they know it works because they have either done it themselves of seen others do it. Only in fantasy based martial arts do they practice things no one does or can do.

C’mon gents, lets be honest.

Performance is what keeps people honest.

I knew my teacher could take care of himself by ‘feeling’ him throughout my training, seeing him move in demonstrations and watching his reactions to the ‘newer’ students who also think and talk like you t!

You are only deluding yourself. You can only see fighting skills in fighitng, the rest is your supposition (and the supposition of people who have little to no skills themselves isn’t much of a testimonial).

Isn’t it funny how all this has started.

With people questioning their ‘roots’ and looking for the ‘staple diet’ of Martial Arts, the only functional way to functionalize an already functional system is to simply train harder with good guidance…

If you take a poor traiing method and train “harder”, you won’t get good results. The goal is to train better, to train in a way that maximizes results. TMAs don’t produce good results and never have. This is precisely why we don’t see any good TMA fighters today. TMAs are the most popular in the world, yet have produced almost nothing in the way of skilled fighters. And those that it has produced, have adopted modern training methods into their training. You can keep believing that everything is fine, that you guys have the “real wing chun”, that you have internal power produced by your qi gong, etc. and ignoring the evidence. This is what fantasy-based guys do.

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In order to be functional, modern training methods must be adopted. I am no expert, but years ago I started categorizing the areas I felt required research in order to improve my Wing Chun. I have given some examples below:

Fighting attributes - the ability to hit hard and close quickly. Looked into body mechanics, trained with some hard-hitters ; )

Mind-setting - looking at fight or flight, ways to deal with fear/stress. Studied NLP, authors such as Geoff Thompson. Simulated scenario drill training.

Ranges of Combat - have grappling coach, sparring against different stylists (mostly MMA and boxing)

Conditioning - use many boxing drills, bag work, plyo work, periodization, (conditioning is most important aspect of my training)

Wing Chun skill-set - Chi Sao, forms, footwork closing drills etc

The point is that a good Wing Chun man does not just train his Wing Chun alone.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;820704]I agree with your idea behind this thread t, but the more people who get hoodwinked into this ‘see it to believe it’ attitude will only ever suffer in the future, as this has hapened before in China (so a little birdie tells me!)

If I have to actually ‘see’ my teacher ‘do someone up’ before I believe in them, then I will automatically pass that idea on to my own students and have to ‘prove’ myself to them too. What a merry-go-round! A person who is Champion is the best. Everyone else is not the real deal. AND when this Champion loses his next fight all his students will leave him and he’ll be a penniless beggar again!

C’mon gents, lets be honest.

I knew my teacher could take care of himself by ‘feeling’ him throughout my training, seeing him move in demonstrations and watching his reactions to the ‘newer’ students who also think and talk like you t!

Isn’t it funny how all this has started.

With people questioning their ‘roots’ and looking for the ‘staple diet’ of Martial Arts, the only functional way to functionalize an already functional system is to simply train harder with good guidance…[/QUOTE]
I think you are taking it to a extreme. People have loyalty and if someone teaches you and says do this like this. Don’t do this like that, becouse this is going to happen… don’t you think they should be able to show you that its going to happen? Or at least prov it to you? If the person isn’t physically able to show you, then its up to you to find out on your own. That doesn’t per say mean enter a local mma fight.. If someone told me to make sure fist is tight even when I train, or I will develop a bad habit. I don’t need to play the whole scenario out and brake my finger… its up to you to make things functional not anyone else.

Its like saying to a BJJ teacher hey are you sure thats going to brake my arm.. sure its hurts but maybe it won’t brake… Show me that arm-bar but this time for real, don’t stop when he taps. Then I will know that its effective. ok lets try a d’arce or a anaconda now… :rolleyes:
Everyone has techniques they like and ones they don’t. I don’t really like the lop sao, but that doesn’t mean I can use it. I feel more comfortable with a basic pak sao.

perfect example in chi sao I was shown a technique, and told to push to set it up. I didn’t really catch the push part although I did hear him say it. ( it didn’t click) SO I could not get the technique to work for a very long time. I would try it and it never worked for me. It wasn’t until I was watching a judo match that it clicked. I wasn’t setting it up, it won’t work without the setup. He could have constantly berated me about not doing it correctly but I had to learn a more important lesson, self improvement and self reliance. We are all just talking about waving our hands and feet.. but thats all dead technique. Nobody can give you a live technique, you must posses it on your own.

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monji112000

Interetsing post there. Thanks for the insight.

I was also trying to highlight that I, as a Sifu/Coach, wouldn’t want to compete when I could be promoting my students instead.

Unfortunately, good students are hard to find, as are good Sifus.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;820792]Interetsing post there. Thanks for the insight.

I was also trying to highlight that I, as a Sifu/Coach, wouldn’t want to compete when I could be promoting my students instead.

Unfortunately, good students are hard to find, as are good Sifus.[/QUOTE]

To be a teacher is no small endeavor, its not something to take lightly. How much more so in becoming a student. You may go a whole lifetime and never find a teacher thats “right”. I can assume its the same for the other perspective. Anyone can teach you something, but thats not what I’m talking about. The word Sifu for me personally has more meaning than just teacher.

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You’re spot on monji. I take on board your advice.

When I think back, I remember being ‘labelled’ a Sifu and thinking ‘I’m just a Sihing here!’ To me, a Sifu puts his life into his art and his students. Much like my own does but I use the term loosely these days. I see myself more as a coach, and one of a pair as I teach with my Sihing mostly.

This forum, believe it or not, is my introduction to my ‘self’. The first attempt I have made to contact anyone from the family on my own! Strange, as I turned 33 last week and fill my days working in an office.

How can I be ‘functional’ in ways that match everyone elses experiences in fighting and competition?

I can only study more these days, as even training is minimal :o

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Hey Guys!

Some good responses so far. I agree with several of the points made and offer some of my own:

  1. Realistic sparring with opponents doing something other than WCK is key to finding out what works.
  2. A “functionalized” WCK may begin to resemble JKD more and more.
  3. Training should be done with more “realistic” modern weapons such as sticks and tactical folders…again making it appear more like JKD.
  4. Conditioning is very important and should be an integral part of the training.
  5. Training should include modern equipment such as focus mitts and heavy bags to help develop realistic striking power.
  6. Including training in the clinch range and on the ground is essential to being a more “well-rounded” fighter. This should be blended smoothly with the stand up WCK skills.

There are some points that have not come up yet on this thread. Do we keep the traditional WCK forms? Do we modify the forms to reflect what we discover to be more functional and realistic? Do we keep the wooden dummy?

Here’s a thought that I had…develop a “san sik” system of “separate points” as in Ku Lo Wing Chun. Break out of the traditional forms those movements that are key to the WCK body structure as well as those movements proven to be functional in a realistic sparring situation. Develop them as short "san sik"sequences that are practiced solo, with a partner in a two-man “set” format, applied on the dummy, and in sparring. This would be similar to a boxer that works specific combos solo, against the focus mitts, on the heavy bag, and in sparring. This “san sik system” could be either a supplement to “traditional” WCK, or its own independant version of WCK. It would allow one to focus on and develop those WCK movements that are the most functional and useful. But now the question becomes…which parts of the forms would you break out as a san sik? What movements of your own would you put into a san sik? Here’s an example:

Bong-Lop Da…solo…two-man version = classic Lop Da drill…practiced on the dummy…worked into sparring against a resisting opponent.

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I agree, Keith. A “functionalized” wing chun will look something like JKD. Not exactly like it - but the basic approach of a functionalized wing chun has to have certain things going for it that do resemble the path Bruce Lee took in a number of ways. Such as:

  1. A more mobile footwork at longer ranges especially - and with some longer range kicking (including roundhouse kicks) and the corresponding footwork used as a delivery system that resembles more of a boxing, kickboxing, mma type, Muay Thai footwork than a more “typical” wing chun type footwork. (Although some wing chun systems like TWC do have similar footwork and roundkicks already - but this is a wing chun exception and not the rule).

And using a slightly more up-on-your-toes footwork doesn’t mean that you have to sacrifice rootedness and stability for mobility - for once you’ve “delivered” (or even “as” you’re delivering) enough weaponry (punches/kicks) to get to the close infight range your rooted and stable wing chun instincts and training can and should take over.

2- Longer range punching tactics will also come into play (ie.- straight leads, rear crosses. etc.) using some shoulder and hip rotation for a longer reach and power can easily marry into a wing chun strategy using centerlines/centralines.

Now granted - we can argue that wing chun already has horizontal straight punches, uppercuts, and hooking punches - but the line between this and a more “boxing-like” approach to these punches can get very thin. Very thin indeed. (Witness the latest thread about boxing and WSL/Rolf Clausnitzer as just one of many examples - and the vid on another thread showing Alan Orr’s guy Aaron Baum fighting in a mma event is another).

  1. Clinch work when in the very close quarter range that may go waay beyond any kind of wing chun “trapping”/hitting and into Greco, or throwing and other takedown techniques - and of course…

  2. Wrestling/grappling on the ground.

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Functional Wing Chun is just Wing Chun. It is not JKD.

If one gets to the point where he questions the validity of the forms and the dummy, the path is clear, do something else. Because this will be the moment at which you cease being a Wing Chun man.

Perhaps the way forward is simply this. Train like a boxer or MMA guy, because they tend to have the upper hand in conditioning over traditional martial artists. However, always retain the tactics, skills and strategy from Wing Chun. Be a functional athlete first, then adopt the mind-set for self-protection and then use the tools provided by Wing Chun for when you switch into combat mode.

I may be missing the point here, but I like to keep my Wing Chun uncluttered and simple.