[QUOTE=nschmelzer;815369]The TWC video clip you cite as evidence of fantasy based training does not purport to be video of a real combat situation.
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Thank you. That’s exactly my point. It’s fantasy. Even as a demo, you are demoing something that won’t ever happen. Youa re demoing fantasy. If this is what is being taught, what is being taught is fantasy.
Reality-based MAs can do demos too which aren’t real "combat’ (LOL!) situations. But they will demo what they really train, what they really do. Not fantasy.
But since we are on the subject of fantasy. Here is another video clip of a fantasy sequence… no punches to the head permitted, no fishooks, etc. Although the differences in videos is obvious, the point is… you are quick to see the fantasy in TMA - but completely blind to the fantasy of those that you tout as realistic.
That’s not fantasy – that is an example of realistic skills being actuallty being used. You aren’t grasping that realsitic skills are those things that can really be used in fighting, things you can really pull-off against a genuinely resisting opponent trying to beat you. You can have competitions that involve limited realistic skills, as youdo in boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, etc. However, that’s not the same thing as having techniques, strategies, etc. that won’t work under realistic conditions.
You need to get off your high-horse. Why don’t you MMA types go to the MMA forum and talk about how great your martial arts is? Oh - probably because those guys would see right through your BS.
MMAists do see right thru BS for the most part, unlike the fantasy-based guys.
[QUOTE=MisterNoobie;815366]
I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we’re going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy? I dont think so, it only means I suck at it? So i dont think that the above criteria alone is enough to put the official ‘fantasy’ stamp on any martial art.
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Very nice point… BJJ is a fine art, but it takes real time put into training, just like everything else.
A friend of mine who studies BJJ (and is also twenty years younger) wanted to spar with me. He’s only got a few years in BJJ… so funny enough for him… sparring meant starting on the ground, on his back. Ha! Is that fantasy-based then?? NO… it is simply just a breakdown of the learning progression into basic concepts and a simpler timeframe.
Same thing with this WC clip in question. No one is trying to pass it off as realistic fighting… Imo, it is just a video example of an applied technique with a cooprative training partner in order to let the technique itself be easily demonstrated.
No big deal…
Would that technique alone work in a real fightin situation?? No. Will lying on your back waiting for the fighter to come at you work alone in a real fighting situation?? No.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;815391]could you please explain how you ‘adapt’ BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)[/QUOTE]
Ronin already told you that. You adapt it by using the same tools as MT, boxing, and wrestling do for the standup portion.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;815372]I’d seen this clip before t, and can understand what you say here, for once. But I also argue the point, if you can’t actually use what we’re looking at here, as a Wing Chun student you haven’t put in enough time. I hope that most practitioners can see the set and how they would demo in their way, at their speed, with their power and character. For that is Wing Chun IMO.
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I’m sure it is WK to you and to many, many people. That’s precisely my point. It is fantasy fu. Let’s see someone actually do that sort of thing in fighting some competant nonWCK people. It won’t happen. You can even look at the “fights” the guys that train there had and see they don’t do those things when they do fight. Because you can’t.
The young femme fatale here still has crisp shape. Enough for a download on a website as an example. As for the fantasy, are we talking of some sort if vizualization? Isn’t that what we all do to see the next stage of progression? How would you look if you ‘copied’ this set your way t?
[QUOTE=MisterNoobie;815366]I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we’re going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy? [/QUOTE]
There is one huge difference in what you are doing with a functional arts such as BJJ. The system is set up so that, although you might suck at it now, all you have to do is keep training at it and soon you will be able to proficiently use those tools against full-on resisting opponents.
Same thing with this WC clip in question. No one is trying to pass it off as realistic fighting… Imo, it is just a video example of an applied technique with a cooprative training partner in order to let the technique itself be easily demonstrated.
No big deal…
Would that technique alone work in a real fightin situation?? No. Will lying on your back waiting for the fighter to come at you work alone in a real fighting situation?? No.[/QUOTE]
It’s not thatt this technique alone won’t work – the technique itself won’t work. And, it shows that people aren’t taking things from their fighting that do work and using that as the basis for their training/teaching, but teaching/training from a fantasy of what they beleive will work.
A friend of mine who studies BJJ (and is also twenty years younger) wanted to spar with me. He’s only got a few years in BJJ… so funny enough for him… sparring meant starting on the ground, on his back. Ha! Is that fantasy-based then?? NO… it is simply just a breakdown of the learning progression into basic concepts and a simpler timeframe.[/QUOTE]
Again, big difference between working positional training of the guard and doing something like chi sao. In a fight, you will use the guard the same way you use it in practice… not so with chi sao.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;815392]ok, list the one’s you’ve spotted
And nothing general, get right down to the point and give solid examples. List practitioners, lineages, etc if you’d like. Be specific as possible so we know where you’re coming from. Typical answers like “all fantasy-based WC, or aikido, etc” don’t count.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815406]Again, big difference between working positional training of the guard and doing something like chi sao. In a fight, you will use the guard the same way you use it in practice… not so with chi sao.[/QUOTE]
Hello,
Going back to a statement made by T earlier regarding the concepts being trained and explored Chi Sau can and does produce skills applicable in real combat. The problem is that many do not understand what Chi Sau is and is not. Chi Sau is about energy and directing energy it is not limited to the rolling or hands/arms connecting which is but one piece of the puzzle. I once performed Chi Sau with another WC Instructor who thought I was crazy because I was wearing a light jacket. Funny, it did not seem to bother my technique any. While I was in WT we had Seven (7) distinct sections of Chi Sau for training. Each section dealt with a different type of energy. The concepts learned for dealing with energy were directly applicable to fighting and none of them needed to start with rolling, etc. The rolling was simply a training method to assist in learning.
I would agree that a fight will look nothing like Chi Sau, however I would not agree that the concepts and skills developed by Chi Sau are not applicable. If you are in a clinch or close range situation and you are exerting forward energy and you “find” a hole to slip through, this is end result of the Chi Sau practive. It may look nothing like the training but the attribute is a direct result of such training.
It is rare that a technique trained in the gym will look EXACTLY the same when applied on the street. So my question to KF and T is what makes WC training and the application of concepts any different than any other art? Or more simply why is it that WC can not or is not effective?
IMHO, WC can be trained to be just as effective as any other art and in many ways is superior because it trains concepts and is not limited to techniques. Of course, when one has a favorite approach it is easy to become convinced that is the only or best approach, while ignoring the effectiveness of other arts.
I agree there are many unrealistic people out there. Thats MHO…
Unrealistic people…that become teachers.
Its a shame people paint the whole community with this label of fantasy based training though, as well as the style.
I dont think people show demos like the one posted as a true representation of what theyd do in fighting :rolleyes:.
What i see from a VT POV is a compicated series of movements that wouldnt happen nor look exactly like that.
From my VT POV, at the initial touch the defender had an opportunity to strike. Quick and direct = VT. But in this demo we see her block… Lop… then hit etc etc. The tempo is ‘demo’ paced not ‘fight’ paced.
Anyway ive come to realise that i cant get away from people saying VT is fantasy based cause i see it myself. But at the same time ive seen others that are more reality grounded, so i dont waste my time b i t c h i n g about those that do things different to me…thats thier perogitive.
I have this pov cause despite what T sez - i dont pay fees or wear little outfits my sifu would laugh if i asked why he doesnt call himself a grandmaster… and there are many out there that share similar experiences…
At the end of the day you know in your heart if you are fantasy or reality based…
and it just doesnt apply to learning a MA. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Sihing73;815412]Each section dealt with a different type of energy. The concepts learned for dealing with energy were directly applicable to fighting and none of them needed to start with rolling, etc. The rolling was simply a training method to assist in learning. [/QUOTE]
“Energy training” is a halmark of a fantasy based martial art. No funtional trianing method uses “energy training”.
I would agree that a fight will look nothing like Chi Sau, however I would not agree that the concepts and skills developed by Chi Sau are not applicable. It is rare that a technique trained in the gym will look EXACTLY the same when applied on the street.
Watch any performance based human activity that is applied in real time against resisting opponents. All of these activities, whether combat related or not, will look almost exactly the same in application as they do in practice… boxing, BJJ, judo, MT, wrestling, volleyball, basketball, soccer, the list goes on and on.
If you are in a clinch or close range situation and you are exerting forward energy and you “find” a hole to slip through, this is end result of the Chi Sau practive. It may look nothing like the training but the attribute is a direct result of such training.
The clinch work of MMA, wrestling and MT comes directly from real time application and looks the same in practice as when done for real… which is why it works and chi sao does not.
So my question to KF and T is what makes WC training and the application of concepts any different than any other art?
Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815411]Here are a few good ones to start with:[/QUOTE]
Dale - i play the guitar.. i could provide just as many Bad guitar playing vids as bad VT vids from Youtube if not more !
But i still persevere with my guitar playing
The difference IMO is i could provide more good guitar playing vids than good VT vids. :o
Im not sure why that is honestly. IMO its not cause good VT doesnt exist. More that those with good training are more concerned with training than internet validation.
No funtional trianing method uses “energy training”.
Functional JKD’s own Matt Thornton defines aliveness as follows:
Aliveness is timing, energy, and motion.
I know this comes down to semantics and different definitions of “energy”, but that’s what 99% of forum arguments are about, so I figured it was legit.
There is no question BJJ’s emergence from Brazil was a giant wakeup call for MA as a whole. There were and are many lessons for serious MA’s there.
[QUOTE=anerlich;815426]Functional
I know this comes down to semantics and different definitions of “energy”, but that’s what 99% of forum arguments are about, so I figured it was legit.:D.[/QUOTE]
Functional systems do functional drills. “Energy” naturally comes from the aliveness, specificity and transfer of training from those drills without anybody ever giving it a second thought.
Non-functional systems do non-functional drills and justify them as being good for “energy development.”
LOL @ believing the urban myth of guys walking around with razor blades in their mouths. Even bigger LOL’s a someone actually trying to do that in a physical confrontation.
Tell you what… try putting a razor blade in your mouth and tussling around with someone. Get back to me on how many stiches you needed on the inside of your mouth and tongue… that’s assuming you didn’t swallow it in the first place.
no myth fool thats a fact, moron. i dare you to come to the south bronx or brooklyn and tell them thats a urban myth i ****ing dare you. watch how fast you go home with buck fifties across you face. people like you end up dead in the street for being so f ucking stupid.
I practice both WC and Pekiti Tirsia. Many of the “drills” are based on how to deal with the energy of an opponents attack. You also learn to apply concepts based on the energy of the attack not its shape. Consider the various angles trained with using the sticks. You do not need to apply technique A to deflect B as long as you understand the angle and the “energy” which can be applied from that angle.
You mentioned the Dog Brothers and their approach being more “reality” based than many others. It is interesting that much of their approach is based on Pekiti Tirisa.
I also find it interesting that Pekiti Tirsia is recognized by the Phillipine Government and taught to the indigenous Marines. It is also interesting that several Wing Chun Artists, Leung Ting, William Cheung to name a few also have programs specifically for training various Law Enforcement and Milatary units. Not too bad for “Fantasy Based” martial arts. Please be sure to let me know when some of those posting here can add this type of training to their credentials
Oh, for all of the naysayers and advocates of their approach being more realistic than others it is interesting that in 1998 the Pekiti Tirsia Organization held a full contact minimum protection stick fighting event. They invited all comers, BJJ and all, to attend and fight. In the end the only ones who showed up were other PT people. Where were all of the “realistic” fighters who tout their own superior training methods???
I make no claims to be a superior martial artists, but I also do not make it a practice of putting down others while offering no proof of their inferiority. Sometimes the biggest wind makes the most noise.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815431]Functional systems do functional drills. “Energy” naturally comes from the aliveness, specificity and transfer of training from those drills without anybody ever giving it a second thought.
Non-functional systems do non-functional drills and justify them as being good for “energy development.”[/QUOTE]
But I also argue the point, if you can’t actually use what we’re looking at here, as a Wing Chun student you haven’t put in enough time. I hope that most practitioners can see the set and how they would demo in their way, at their speed, with their power and character. For that is Wing Chun IMO.
