[QUOTE=doug maverick;815436]no myth fool thats a fact, moron. i dare you to come to the south bronx or brooklyn and tell them thats a urban myth i ****ing dare you. watch how fast you go home with buck fifties across you face. people like you end up dead in the street for being so f ucking stupid.[/QUOTE]
I also know these gentlemen in London who will ‘wet’ you for a laugh, several times …I have had them try it on me …Dale your kinda living in gym land son, nobody really wants to hurt you in the gym, they arent hiding the knife.
Theres so many out there with ideas of Dim Mak death touch syndrome, i find it funny how you guys center your arguments over things like chi sao forms and dummies etc.
The dummy is a VT mans protractor.
Forms are for dexterity and basic muscle memory for begginiers, a building block if you will…
Its not rocket science, not big deal…
So many things one could talk about with regard to “Fantasy based” MA’s.
LOL
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;815405]It’s not thatt this technique alone won’t work – the technique itself won’t work. And, it shows that people aren’t taking things from their fighting that do work and using that as the basis for their training/teaching, but teaching/training from a fantasy of what they beleive will work.[/QUOTE]
A pak/da technique will work Terance, but first you need to develop skillsets such as balance, range, footwork, positioning, bridging leverage and control of oncoming energy.
These skillsets come from training and over-time incorporating more and more resistance and challenges.
Anyone can jump in a ring with some protective gear and start banging away… While it’s fun to be certain… I wouldn’t call it a Martial Art… just a crude search for a lucky punch.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815406]Again, big difference between working positional training of the guard and doing something like chi sao. In a fight, you will use the guard the same way you use it in practice… not so with chi sao.[/QUOTE]
Not true… Unless you think someone is just going to drop their arms to the side and let you get ahold of their body.
On the contrary, those of our students who train MMA find that Chi Sao is essential to their clinch skills.
Keith, the simplest way to see what a fantasy-based martial art is to look at where the strategies, tactics, tools, etc. come from (or, perhaps more precisely, how they are shown to be used) – do they come from experience in fighting, in actually doing those things, seeing that they work well, and then training them, teaching them, etc. or do they come from something besides actual experience, like theory, unrealistic drills, etc. The former is reality-based martial art, the latter fantasy-based martial art (fantasy-based arts like to say they come from experience, but you of course never see it).
—So you then would posit that all of the techniques and strategies taught in BJJ and used in tournaments was directly derived from experiences in “real” fighting? I don’t think so. And that’s what I was pointing out in my original post. A lot of BJJ is just as much “fantasy” martial art as anything else because it is “sport” based.
[QUOTE=doug maverick;815436]no myth fool thats a fact, moron. i dare you to come to the south bronx or brooklyn and tell them thats a urban myth i ****ing dare you. watch how fast you go home with buck fifties across you face. people like you end up dead in the street for being so f ucking stupid.[/QUOTE]
LOL @ being stupid enough to believe people are stupid enough to walk around with razor blades in their mouths.
Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.
—What about Thai boxers “shadowboxing”, BJJ or wrestlers practicing the sprawl and other things solo…those are a type of “forms done in the air.” What about Thai boxers working the pads or the heavy bag, or grapplers practicing with a grappling dummy…those are a type of “technique done against” something. And I still don’t think rolling with a training partner in the gym as any different than doing Chi Sao. That is…if the Chi Sao is done properly.
[QUOTE=Sihing73;815439]
Oh, for all of the naysayers and advocates of their approach being more realistic than others it is interesting that in 1998 the Pekiti Tirsia Organization held a full contact minimum protection stick fighting event. They invited all comers, BJJ and all, to attend and fight. In the end the only ones who showed up were other PT people. Where were all of the “realistic” fighters who tout their own superior training methods??? [/QUOTE]
The Dog Brothers host full contact stick fighting matches twice per year- open to all comers. The average turnout is between 30 and 40 fighters.
[QUOTE=KPM;815490]Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.
—What about Thai boxers “shadowboxing”, BJJ or wrestlers practicing the sprawl and other things solo…those are a type of “forms done in the air.” What about Thai boxers working the pads or the heavy bag, or grapplers practicing with a grappling dummy…those are a type of “technique done against” something. And I still don’t think rolling with a training partner in the gym as any different than doing Chi Sao. That is…if the Chi Sao is done properly. :)[/QUOTE]
What level of BJJ are you at?
BJJ has discovered that a vast amount of the technique they were teaching for BJJ tournaments simply does not work in an MMA setting, which is closer to “real” fighting.
Please list the vast array of techniques that are used in tourneys that do not work in MMA settings. Then I will list five times that amount that do work.
[QUOTE=KPM;815490]Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.
—What about Thai boxers “shadowboxing”, BJJ or wrestlers practicing the sprawl and other things solo…those are a type of “forms done in the air.” What about Thai boxers working the pads or the heavy bag, or grapplers practicing with a grappling dummy…those are a type of “technique done against” something. And I still don’t think rolling with a training partner in the gym as any different than doing Chi Sao. That is…if the Chi Sao is done properly. :)[/QUOTE]
Forms done in the air come directly from the movements done in forms, not from fighting.
Shadow boxing, sprawl training, working the pads, etc- all movements taken from and done just as they are done in fighting.
[QUOTE=Sihing73;815439]I also find it interesting that Pekiti Tirsia is recognized by the Phillipine Government and taught to the indigenous Marines. It is also interesting that several Wing Chun Artists, Leung Ting, William Cheung to name a few also have programs specifically for training various Law Enforcement and Milatary units. [/QUOTE]
Military and law enforcement training… pretty much everybody and their WC grandmothers’ supposed claim to fame.
The kung fu “master” from this infamous match trained marines, law enforcement and border patrol agents:
Please list the vast array of techniques that are used in tourneys that do not work in MMA settings. Then I will list five times that amount that do work.
—I’ll admit that I’m no expert, but I’ve seen just about every Pride & UFC event that has been put on DVD. You can count the number of specific submission techniques that show up consistently on 1 hand…rear naked choke, cross-arm bar, bent-arm bar, kimura…
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815493]Forms done in the air come directly from the movements done in forms, not from fighting.
Shadow boxing, sprawl training, working the pads, etc- all movements taken from and done just as they are done in fighting.
Big difference.[/QUOTE]
—Bong Sao, Ton Sao, straight punch, front kick…all movements taken from and done as they are done in fighting. The concepts of positioning and facing…all taken from and done as they are done in fighting. I think the difference is not as big as you would have us believe. Granted…individual techniques can and should be broken out of the forms and practiced with application in mind to make them more “realistic”, but that’s still “form done in the air.” Just practicing punching is “form done in the air” and is no different than a boxer shadowboxing.
[QUOTE=KPM;815502]I’ll admit that I’m no expert, but I’ve seen just about every Pride & UFC event that has been put on DVD. You can count the number of specific submission techniques that show up consistently on 1 hand…rear naked choke, cross-arm bar, bent-arm bar, kimura…[/QUOTE]
There is far more to BJJ than just submissions. Submissions are just the final products of hunreds of things that have to happen beforehand.
There are probably six or eight things going on at any one time just while someone is in someone else’s half guard.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815506]There is far more to BJJ than just submissions. Submissions are just the final products of hunreds of things that have to happen beforehand.
There are probably six or eight things going on at any one time just while someone is in someone else’s half guard.[/QUOTE]
—No doubt that is true. But by the time these guys reach Black Belt level in BJJ I would assume that they have learned more than 5 or 6 submission moves! Why don’t they show up in the cage? That has been my point. BJJ has a certain level of “fantasy-fu” to it as well.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;815506]There is far more to BJJ than just submissions. Submissions are just the final products of hunreds of things that have to happen beforehand.
There are probably six or eight things going on at any one time just while someone is in someone else’s half guard.[/QUOTE]
LOL@ BJJ is more than just submissions, LOL again @ there are six or eight things going on at any one time while in half guard, this is just an example of “Fantasy Based Thinking”, LOL
[QUOTE=KPM;815505]—Bong Sao, Ton Sao, straight punch, front kick…all movements taken from and done as they are done in fighting. The concepts of positioning and facing…all taken from and done as they are done in fighting. I think the difference is not as big as you would have us believe. Granted…individual techniques can and should be broken out of the forms and practiced with application in mind to make them more “realistic”, but that’s still “form done in the air.” Just practicing punching is “form done in the air” and is no different than a boxer shadowboxing.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sihing;815511]LOL@ BJJ is more than just submissions, LOL again @ there are six or eight things going on at any one time while in half guard, this is just an example of “Fantasy Based Thinking”, LOL :p[/QUOTE]
Have you been drinking? What the h3ll does that mean?
[/QUOTE]